DUST Search - Kill the Bunnies

VEXation Gunn wrote:

Geirskoegul wrote:

VEXation Gunn wrote:

Dear OP

when people jump in the air they are an easier target because you know their jump/flight path and landing point. Also when jumping its damn near impossible to aim/hit a target. Again your advantage

So just because you can't hit the target doesn't mean there needs to be a new mechanic added to the game to make it easier for you to hit someone.

You already admitted you aren't that good at dust yet so why should ccp add in a mechanic to compensate for your current lack of skill?

Not trying to be an ass about it but the forum are full of "I am bad at dust, I demand you make it easier for us to kill people"

Every build ccp drastically changes game play and it does take a long time to get used to it especially if you have played any other fps that has good fps mechanics

Regardless of your points (you're right on all of them), bunny hopping is not a deirable thing in any game, let alone a tactical shooter like dust. You're supposed to use cover and strategy, not run-and-gun and bunny hop.

cover and strategy is not mutually exclusive with run-and-gun and bunny hopping. These are all aspects of the game and used by everyone all the time. Tracking someone in the air is a skill not unlike shooting at someone when they are strafing. The idea that bunny hopping is different then strafing is a matter of perception only.

As long as jumping doesn't cause compression lag like last summer I dont see an issue with it.

For the record I don't "bunny hop"

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Raging Grog PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 0	Posted - 2013.05.27 20:32:00 - [1] - Quote I am admittedly not very good at this game yet. But I'd like to throw out an idea for conversation anyway. I get annoyed with all the people ruining my perfectly good head shots by jumping up and down like jack rabbits. I would propose that if you are jumping and get hit with weapons fire or explosive blast that it knocks you off your feet requiring time to get back up, and makes you more vulnerable to damage while on the ground. That should limit jumping as a means to get around instead of silly dance in an otherwise "serious" (loses have meaning) game.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 65	Posted - 2013.05.27 20:41:00 - [2] - Quote Interesting idea, that sounds like a lot of animation work. I remember something about the animation sequences needed for the vaulting idea to be implemented, that it would slow the game down somehow. Also, seeing as we are currently unable to go prone, I think you may find if CCP answers you about this request it will in all likely-hood be a resounding no or not at this time. I'm all in favor of having a target knocked off their feet if it means we can go prone.
Meeko Fent Mercenary incorperated 23	Posted - 2013.05.27 20:41:00 - [3] - Quote Knockdown? No. People Don't Jump Up and down Like Jack Rabbits because they think its funny. Its usually Bacause someone has shot them and they are attempting to lose them. If you want to Get headshots, Headshot them before they know your there. Or Be a Decent Sniper and Crouch. People QQing because others don't wanna die is going to KEEL this game. Making a weapon OP because you like the gun isn't how Balancing works. Now Lowering Jump Height I can agree with. We are Clone Soldiers. Not the Easter Bunny I Liked Halo Reach's adjustment to the Jump Height. Just Saying
Krisuke 003 WildCard Ninja Clan 11	Posted - 2013.05.28 15:44:00 - [4] - Quote How about you explode like a Clay pigeon when you get shot while in the air. Seriously though, your jumping ability should be drastically reduced immediately after an impact, like from bullets, vehicles, falls, melee attacks, etc.
VEXation Gunn Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 6	Posted - 2013.05.28 16:24:00 - [5] - Quote Dear OP when people jump in the air they are an easier target because you know their jump/flight path and landing point. Also when jumping its damn near impossible to aim/hit a target. Again your advantage So just because you can't hit the target doesn't mean there needs to be a new mechanic added to the game to make it easier for you to hit someone. You already admitted you aren't that good at dust yet so why should ccp add in a mechanic to compensate for your current lack of skill? Not trying to be an ass about it but the forum are full of "I am bad at dust, I demand you make it easier for us to kill people" Every build ccp drastically changes game play and it does take a long time to get used to it especially if you have played any other fps that has good fps mechanics
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 177	Posted - 2013.05.28 16:29:00 - [6] - Quote I actually rather like the knockdown idea, though it would be a nightmare to implement, so totally understand that it's basically a non-starter (too much work for something so situational and niche, even though it's an awesome detail and idea). Bunnyhopping does need work, though, since as it stands now, being out of stamina doesn't stop bunny hopping, just vaulting. This is a fairly easy fix that dates all the way back to the original PlanetSide, and the only difference on that and here is this: planetside didn't let you jump when out of stamina. I'm not saying require you to have ALL the stamina needed for a jump, but maybe just prevent jumping if you're under 10% or 15% stamina. This would still let you get a couple jumps in (since we don't hive prone or diving, like you would do in RL, this is the next closest thing), but would make it so it's only helpful if already near cover. Bunny hopping as a problem would be done. Alternatively (or in combination), perhaps take a page from Monster Hunter's book and reduce sprinting speed when you fall below 20%, and if you keep sprinting (or you jump, causing you to hit zero stamina) until you hit zero stamina, even walking speed is reduced for a second, two at most, until stamina starts recharging again. These are easier solutions to implement, would achieve the desired end result, and in the Monster Hunter example, introduce a level of strategy to how you move in general (save yourself for the fight, or rush to get their the instant you can).
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 177	Posted - 2013.05.28 16:31:00 - [7] - Quote VEXation Gunn wrote: Dear OP when people jump in the air they are an easier target because you know their jump/flight path and landing point. Also when jumping its damn near impossible to aim/hit a target. Again your advantage So just because you can't hit the target doesn't mean there needs to be a new mechanic added to the game to make it easier for you to hit someone. You already admitted you aren't that good at dust yet so why should ccp add in a mechanic to compensate for your current lack of skill? Not trying to be an ass about it but the forum are full of "I am bad at dust, I demand you make it easier for us to kill people" Every build ccp drastically changes game play and it does take a long time to get used to it especially if you have played any other fps that has good fps mechanics Regardless of your points (you're right on all of them), bunny hopping is not a deirable thing in any game, let alone a tactical shooter like dust. You're supposed to use cover and strategy, not run-and-gun and bunny hop.
Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 486	Posted - 2013.05.28 16:33:00 - [8] - Quote I dunno, we are wearing power armor, if the leg servos are strong enough, whats the problem with having the ability to jump up and down to dodge. Its just a form of Gun Kata (Equilibrium)
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 177	Posted - 2013.05.28 16:39:00 - [9] - Quote Daedric Lothar wrote: I dunno, we are wearing power armor, if the leg servos are strong enough, whats the problem with having the ability to jump up and down to dodge. Its just a form of Gun Kata (Equilibrium) You can always find a way to bullshit an answer, the question is whether it's desirable gameplay and/or does it fit the setting. You won't catch anyone, even the (honest) ones doing it, that will defend bunny hopping as a legitimate or desirable mechanic. I fully admit to doing it mysefl, because it WORKS, and not just against snipers. The thing is, it SHOULDN'T work. PlanetSide broke me of the habit very quickly, but as implemented now, it's like being back in CS:S; there's no reason NOT to bunny hop, especially if you aren't shooting someone at the time (and even when you are; dunno what the earlier poster is talking about, I have no issues aiming while bunny hopping that i don't have while stationary; just the standard issues with the currently broken mouse input -- give us raw input with hard turnspeed caps, damnit!)
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 127	Posted - 2013.05.28 16:51:00 - [10] - Quote How about you hit them in the air and it damages (as well as normal hp) their stamina? No more animation extras, no need to go prone. You hit them in the air and they have a reduced ability to bunny hop. Problem solved? Geirskoegul wrote: Something about making it so you can't jump at certain stamina levels Ummm have you tried doing that in game currently? Because that's already implemented. You deplete stamina and you can't jump. If you don't have enough for a full jump you do this little half-assed jump thing. Bunny hopping becomes a problem when you have people who have cardiac regulator mods that give them oodles (yes oodles) of stamina. Hence, getting hit in midair damaging stamina might actually be a decent mechanic.

Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 486	Posted - 2013.05.28 16:53:00 - [11] - Quote Geirskoegul wrote: You won't catch anyone, even the (honest) ones doing it, that will defend bunny hopping as a legitimate or desirable mechanic. I fully admit to doing it mysefl, because it WORKS Like you said. It works, and in the 23,000th century or whenever. if we have power armor that lets us quickly jump up and down then I am sure that will be a legitimate tactic. I'm surprised we don't have jump jets yet.
VEXation Gunn Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 6	Posted - 2013.05.28 16:58:00 - [12] - Quote Geirskoegul wrote: VEXation Gunn wrote: Dear OP when people jump in the air they are an easier target because you know their jump/flight path and landing point. Also when jumping its damn near impossible to aim/hit a target. Again your advantage So just because you can't hit the target doesn't mean there needs to be a new mechanic added to the game to make it easier for you to hit someone. You already admitted you aren't that good at dust yet so why should ccp add in a mechanic to compensate for your current lack of skill? Not trying to be an ass about it but the forum are full of "I am bad at dust, I demand you make it easier for us to kill people" Every build ccp drastically changes game play and it does take a long time to get used to it especially if you have played any other fps that has good fps mechanics Regardless of your points (you're right on all of them), bunny hopping is not a deirable thing in any game, let alone a tactical shooter like dust. You're supposed to use cover and strategy, not run-and-gun and bunny hop. cover and strategy is not mutually exclusive with run-and-gun and bunny hopping. These are all aspects of the game and used by everyone all the time. Tracking someone in the air is a skill not unlike shooting at someone when they are strafing. The idea that bunny hopping is different then strafing is a matter of perception only. As long as jumping doesn't cause compression lag like last summer I dont see an issue with it. For the record I don't "bunny hop"
Raging Grog PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 0	Posted - 2013.05.29 01:30:00 - [13] - Quote Just to be clear. Its ok for me to be bad at this game. Though lately I should just change my name to 8. Anyway, mostly I think the jumping to dodge just looks silly in the world of dust. I also think its silly my heavy suit can't walk up some ramps... I would love to see prone be added to the game. As well as some kind of jump pack. Back on topic. I like the ideas of taking stamina damage for being hit as a short term solution but would think a knock down effect would be cool to. Maybe not for all weapons but just some.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 178	Posted - 2013.05.29 05:01:00 - [14] - Quote Driftward wrote: How about you hit them in the air and it damages (as well as normal hp) their stamina? No more animation extras, no need to go prone. You hit them in the air and they have a reduced ability to bunny hop. Problem solved? Geirskoegul wrote: Something about making it so you can't jump at certain stamina levels Ummm have you tried doing that in game currently? Because that's already implemented. You deplete stamina and you can't jump. If you don't have enough for a full jump you do this little half-assed jump thing. Bunny hopping becomes a problem when you have people who have cardiac regulator mods that give them oodles (yes oodles) of stamina. Hence, getting hit in midair (or actually you could have all damage hit stamina a certain percentage) damaging stamina might actually be a decent mechanic. Also, if you start complaining about how you can still do the half jump thing....I get more kills on those people than any other. All it does is make them more vulnerable. I don't see the point of changing the mechanic too much (beyond the measures I mentioned). You do it until its not tactically advantageous then you don't or you suffer the consequences. Trust me, the mini-hop is generally enough. It need to prevent jumping, period, once you're low enough on stamina. Bunny hopping does not belong in a tactical game like Dust is intended to be.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 178	Posted - 2013.05.29 05:02:00 - [15] - Quote Daedric Lothar wrote: Geirskoegul wrote: You won't catch anyone, even the (honest) ones doing it, that will defend bunny hopping as a legitimate or desirable mechanic. I fully admit to doing it mysefl, because it WORKS Like you said. It works, and in the 23,000th century or whenever. if we have power armor that lets us quickly jump up and down then I am sure that will be a legitimate tactic. I'm surprised we don't have jump jets yet. I wouldn't mind jump jets done right (read: ORIGINAL Tribes), though it doesn't really fit the lore or setting of New Eden. And no, bunny hopping is never a legitimate tactic in a serious game. It's an exploitation of poor design to obtain an advantage from ridiculous, unrealistic behavior.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 178	Posted - 2013.05.29 05:10:00 - [16] - Quote VEXation Gunn wrote: Geirskoegul wrote: VEXation Gunn wrote: Dear OP when people jump in the air they are an easier target because you know their jump/flight path and landing point. Also when jumping its damn near impossible to aim/hit a target. Again your advantage So just because you can't hit the target doesn't mean there needs to be a new mechanic added to the game to make it easier for you to hit someone. You already admitted you aren't that good at dust yet so why should ccp add in a mechanic to compensate for your current lack of skill? Not trying to be an ass about it but the forum are full of "I am bad at dust, I demand you make it easier for us to kill people" Every build ccp drastically changes game play and it does take a long time to get used to it especially if you have played any other fps that has good fps mechanics Regardless of your points (you're right on all of them), bunny hopping is not a deirable thing in any game, let alone a tactical shooter like dust. You're supposed to use cover and strategy, not run-and-gun and bunny hop. cover and strategy is not mutually exclusive with run-and-gun and bunny hopping. These are all aspects of the game and used by everyone all the time. Tracking someone in the air is a skill not unlike shooting at someone when they are strafing. The idea that bunny hopping is different then strafing is a matter of perception only. As long as jumping doesn't cause compression lag like last summer I dont see an issue with it. For the record I don't "bunny hop" The idea that bunny hopping ISN"T different from strafing is the result of self-delusion, not far removed from the reasoning seen in Halo to justify the use of wall-hacks, super-bounces, and sword-teleporting: it's in the game, therefore it's intended. And yes, typically run-and-gun CoD/Halo style (e.g. bunny hopping and what we see now) is mutually exclusive with tactical play and intelligent use of cover. it is not a desirable mechanic, looks ridiculous, and diminishes the importance of cover and strategy. You shoot while moving to keep the enemy pinned while you advance to the next point of cover. It's suppressive fire, because while moving you're less accurate; that we're just as accurate while bunny hopping all over the place is absolutely absurd. Proper use of stamina and reduction in jumping would help mitigate this, and having a jump make your CoF go crazy would further help it greatly. Again, the model to follow here is the original PlanetSide. It managed to get a lot of things right when it came to turn-speeds on different suits, CoF bloom on weapons (and damage reduction over range, as opposed to the currently broken max-range system), and insane bloom while jumping so you couldn't realistically hit anything. It even managed to encourage use of cover extremely well, while still making suppressive fire on the run viable (though not a realistic primary kill method, again due to bloom expanding based on movement speed, crouch-vs-standing, and the requirement to burst your weapons since bloom was cumulative up to a maximum and took time to reduce again. Even with power armour, with very few exceptions (such as Elementals in the Battle Tech universe) the augmented strength of the armour lets you do the following, and not much more: move in armour that would be impossible to move with your own strength (net result: similar mobility to traditional body armour of today), carry more and heavier equipment than you otherwise could, and fire more powerful weapons than you otherwise could. It is not a justification for ridiculous bunny hopping all over the place, resulting in absurd, immersion-breaking, and unrealistic behavior and "tactics."


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