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Onesimus Tarsus wrote:

Ad hominem = calling someone's idea nonsense after formulating a two paragraph word-vomit that sidesteps the point that checkmated them into oblivion. You wouldn't ever want to be limited to militia gear, so that is a limit too low. But, let the SP pile up to where all you have to do is "adjust" to some minor skilling change or weapons nerf, and suddenly you're happy to accept the limit. Why? Because you have reached a level of power that you are sure some new player can't protractedly challenge you upon.

You invented two vague terminologies, and fanned them like reclining empresses, yet you did not give one concrete example of their application. How can someone with vastly more SP to spend ever be substantially challenged by a lower-tiered character unless the admission is given that the time then spent amassing power (SP) is an utter waste of time? Thus, the RPG elements of the game are broken and we are right back where we started, in a flavor of the month weapons dash that has absolutely none of the potential richness of EvE aside from what might as well be random in-game generated orbital strikes.

That is precisely why SP must be at least part of the formula that disallows certain people playing against each other, because having some newbie cruise in with militia gear and repeatedly douse a 3-year veteran of what is touted as a progressive skill tree is just as unfair as subjecting said newbie get stomped by proto-squads in every public game after Academy.

Oh, and I call lie on the idea that the skill tree cannot be maxed out. They would either have to announce a point at which points are no longer applied to real skills (capped out), or the skill trees go on ad infinitum, wherein your gear exceeds 100% effectiveness in all situations (capped out).

I am finished re-winning this argument, you may move on to another.


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Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 138	Posted - 2013.05.27 17:37:00 - [1] - Quote Do people even understand what the skillsystem is made for? Do the supporters think the SP system is just there to hinder their path towards world domination, just like in any other modern theme park mmo? If yes. Why aren't they asking for the removal of the damn thing, instead of pleading to be able to pay cash to negate it's effect?
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 138	Posted - 2013.05.27 17:54:00 - [2] - Quote TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I am going to put my foot down and say no to 'respec' at anytime. Make it a once a year thing and penalized/partial refund of SP. I'd settle for a once-a-year partial, if only to please the masses. I settle for screw the "masses". There's barely any visible support for the idea beyond bad logic and wrong comparisons to neural remaps and the discussions usually die out after the first wave of counterarguments. The supporters of the idea just don't want negative consequences for their mistakes and don't value the negative effects as integral part of the philosophy. I'm fine with them not agreeing with fixed skillpoint distribution just as i don't agree with several design choices in other games. I just don't see why a part of this game wich i value highly has to go, when there's plenty of competition that suits their desires.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 140	Posted - 2013.05.27 18:31:00 - [3] - Quote Onesimus Tarsus wrote: They like Dust, they don't like bottlenecking of valuable SP into roles and skills that are then arbitrarily ruined or contorted beyond identification. You can like one part of something and dislike others. Sure they can. I just fail to understand why a skillsystem that is reduced to more SP = better is of any inherent value to them. The fixed system wants to make specialization an increasing commitment the further you go, thus providing your merc a unique "identity" and the feeling that you make important choices that might turn out wrong. Take the "identity" thing out by respecs and we're left with meaningless numbers limiting your gameplay experience because you don't buy enough boosters or don't grind enough. What we're left with is a skinner box design and i don't see why anyone would want this in a competitive FPS. Addendum: I don't give a flying umbrella for grinding if it's not the central purpose of the game (Borderlance series, Diablo 3) and the unchangeable nature, combined with diminishing returns, is the only thing that justifies it's very existence within DUST 514. That's why i think that it must stay unchangeable.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 140	Posted - 2013.05.27 18:42:00 - [4] - Quote Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: Onesimus Tarsus wrote: They like Dust, they don't like bottlenecking of valuable SP into roles and skills that are then arbitrarily ruined or contorted beyond identification. You can like one part of something and dislike others. Sure they can. I just fail to understand why a skillsystem that is reduced to more SP = better is of any inherent value to them. The fixed system wants to make specialization an increasing commitment the further you go, thus providing your merc a unique "identity" and the feeling that you make important choices that might turn out wrong. Take the "identity" thing out by respecs and we're left with meaningless numbers limiting your gameplay experience because you don't buy enough boosters or don't grind enough. What we're left with is a skinner box design and i don't see why anyone would want this in a competitive FPS. People tend to commit more readily to something that isn't a perpetual shot in the dark. Quit pushing blame for the the flaws of the Pinto on the nasty Ford drivers. Can you elaborate on this please? I'm not sure what to take from this. Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Well, you have to admit when people make the P2W argument, lots of folks trot out the "they gotta make money somehow!" pony. The P2W argument is a weak one since alt accounts are free i agree, but the fact that CCP could make money is also irrelevant to me.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 140	Posted - 2013.05.27 18:51:00 - [5] - Quote Crash Monster wrote: If the game is going to keep changing... offer a base amount of 1 per year or something... allowing a maximum of another 1 or 2 per year for aurum. Why not -- you don't get anything special from a respec -- you just get to switch into something else without having to bake an alt for half a year. What's with the new players who are unable to stand a chance with respecced vets, instead of having a more level playing field when filling a new role.Also, anyone can choose to conserve SP for new content when it's released to have an edge but with respecs that's another choice that is rendered obsolete.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 141	Posted - 2013.05.27 19:10:00 - [6] - Quote Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: Crash Monster wrote: If the game is going to keep changing... offer a base amount of 1 per year or something... allowing a maximum of another 1 or 2 per year for aurum. Why not -- you don't get anything special from a respec -- you just get to switch into something else without having to bake an alt for half a year. What's with the new players who are unable to stand a chance with respecced vets. Anyone can choose to conserve SP for new content when it's released to have an edge but with respecs that's another choice that is rendered obsolete. Well, the argument is that it pays to be a vet. Respeccing is yet another superpower that vets have, like proto gear. Why give them an irtificial superpower? Why is it a good thing for the game when vets are to no longer accountable for their decisions and can maintain their superiority in virtually anything indefinitely without any cognitive effort? One of the best qualities of the skilltree is that there's a limit of power to be be gained through SP thus allowing new players to become relevant even with a fraction of the SP if they make the correct choices. I'm nowhere near protolevel but, as a player, i'd consider a level of choice to be taken from me to be a loss. I want an interesting and challenging experience more than ultimate power.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 141	Posted - 2013.05.27 19:23:00 - [7] - Quote Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Sorry, the metaphor meant something to me that I couldn't guarantee the reader. CCP does substantially change the game at times. The respecs are a nod to the fact that they owe a bit of a re-go to people who have committed to things that have radically changed on them. Until CCP delivers a more predictable product, it's no great act of impurity to offer a way to adjust to the changes. That's a valid point. Bigger changes that are out of the player's control should not deteriorate their experience. About a third of the heavy users would like want a different race's suit and might very well be eligible for respecs when racial symmetry gets implemented. But things that are not here yet (pilot suits, stuff that is not even known currently) are a different matter and i think that everyone should get the same chance to spec into them regardless of their allocated SP. I will conserve my SP the instant the rail AR get's a release date to get into it as fast as possible. That way i get my "vet advantage" but also will need to have foresight to do so.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 142	Posted - 2013.05.27 20:11:00 - [8] - Quote Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Stay in militia gear then. Really? We just had a nice exchange and you leave me with this? I am dissapoint.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 142	Posted - 2013.05.27 20:12:00 - [9] - Quote jenza aranda wrote: I am also up for there NEVER being any more respecs. No yearly ones, no aurum ones. none. It just lessens the very idea of which this game is supposed to be. You better god damn candidate for CPM1.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 142	Posted - 2013.05.27 20:45:00 - [10] - Quote Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Stay in militia gear then. Really? We just had a nice exchange and you leave me with this? I am dissapoint. You are most disappoint, I would wager, because of the checkmate. The argument is that people should accept some artificial limitation to their character development. When I suggested one that would severely limit you, you felt it. What i felt is something that i can only identify as an ad hominem of some sorts, in all honesty. The skilltree is designed in such a way so that it can't be capped out. There inherent danger of such a system is that joining earlier means more power without any prospect of ever becoming relevant for new players wich is a really bad design for any product that aims for a longer lifespan. That is alleviated by two concepts: Branching and Seperation: While the total amount of possible SP gain is practically unlimited most skills are affecting only a specific set of situations so that, for any situation, there's a comparatively limited set of skills that actually change the outcome. This creates a threshold above wich more SP can not be used to provide a further advantage over someone with lower SP. That gives older and newer players an environment in wich it is possible to face each other on equal terms thus provides both a challenging gameplay experience. Shifting through Addition: New content is regulary added to provide new combinations and therethore more possible situations, wich an older character can face. That relativises his otherwise unchallangable superiority and forces him to adapt to ongoing changes while at the same time provides newer players a niche in wich they can compete and improve with vets on equal terms. This again gives new players a reason to join and keeps the game interesting for older players. Is it clear why these artificial limitations have to exist and why your checkmate is nonsense now, so we can go back to usefull arguments?

Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 153	Posted - 2013.05.27 20:56:00 - [11] - Quote lowratehitman wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I am going to put my foot down and say no to 'respec' at anytime. Make it a once a year thing and penalized(1 sp refunded back at the cost of 2 sp or something) or partial (one of all current levels refunded that are not a requirement for a higher skill.) and we may start talking. When nerfs are made, players indeed should have a respec option. After all, its not what a player spec'd into. If they spec into something because it suits their playstyle there should be no reason why they would want a respec. Unless, of course they rather specced into OP gear in full knowledge of it beeing OP (Viziam anyone?) in which case they are fully accountable for their decision. Significant funcional changes are another thing but removing some points of damage does not warrant a respec by default.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 154	Posted - 2013.05.28 00:07:00 - [12] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote: Onesimus Tarsus wrote: The tremendous market in aurum paid respecs? I wish I could have the respec concession here for a dollar per character. They see the money. They choose to not go all Activision for it. All respecs will do is give everyone the ability to change into the FotM and stomp on anyone not able to use mommy's credit card. Might not be P2W, but you're definitely left behind without paying. I will also murder a kitten for every additional thread created on this topic. QFT. Flavor of the Month champions forever. I am militantly against respecs but i honestly believe that the P2W argument is one of the weaker ones of the bunch. It's like not those who would abuse respecs are not stockpiling passive boosted alts as we speak.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 164	Posted - 2013.05.28 05:21:00 - [13] - Quote Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Ad hominem = calling someone's idea nonsense after formulating a two paragraph word-vomit that sidesteps the point that checkmated them into oblivion. You wouldn't ever want to be limited to militia gear, so that is a limit too low. But, let the SP pile up to where all you have to do is "adjust" to some minor skilling change or weapons nerf, and suddenly you're happy to accept the limit. Why? Because you have reached a level of power that you are sure some new player can't protractedly challenge you upon. You invented two vague terminologies, and fanned them like reclining empresses, yet you did not give one concrete example of their application. How can someone with vastly more SP to spend ever be substantially challenged by a lower-tiered character unless the admission is given that the time then spent amassing power (SP) is an utter waste of time? Thus, the RPG elements of the game are broken and we are right back where we started, in a flavor of the month weapons dash that has absolutely none of the potential richness of EvE aside from what might as well be random in-game generated orbital strikes. That is precisely why SP must be at least part of the formula that disallows certain people playing against each other, because having some newbie cruise in with militia gear and repeatedly douse a 3-year veteran of what is touted as a progressive skill tree is just as unfair as subjecting said newbie get stomped by proto-squads in every public game after Academy. Oh, and I call lie on the idea that the skill tree cannot be maxed out. They would either have to announce a point at which points are no longer applied to real skills (capped out), or the skill trees go on ad infinitum, wherein your gear exceeds 100% effectiveness in all situations (capped out). I am finished re-winning this argument, you may move on to another. Ad hominem means arguing towards the person. That's what you did when you insinuated motivation on my end without any justification and pretended that it did anything to my argument even if it were correct. That's what i called nonsense, not your "idea" (are you trying to feel attacked right here?) I fanned nothing, my ideas and explanations stand an fall on their own merits. Wether you callenge them on a factual basis or reject them out of hand lies beyond my power. Examples you wanted? With pleasure: Take two Assault characters with the same gear and all relevant skills at level V (tank, eq, nades, guns, coreskills). Who will win? Probably the better shot. Does it matter if one has ten times the SP of the other in this situation? No, because all skills that are left to spec into will not have any impact on the performance in this particular situation whatsoever. More SP != More power beyond a certain point. All you get is more possibilities. That is a basic attribute of the system and you failing or refusing to understand this implies ignorance of the underlying matter (the goddamn skillsytem) on your behalf. It's also interesting that you call me a liar. Do you know how many characters in EVE exist that are maxed out in SP? No such a character exists while there are plenty who have been active from day one. In fact the highest SP chars are just somewhere past 50-60% after 10 years. Do you know how long the current Dust skills take to max? About six-seven years. Are you aware of all the stuff that is beeing worked on right now, each with it's own set of new skills, further increasing that time? Do you understand that CCP will add more and more SP hungry skills in the coming years? Have you considered looking up facts that are readily available within seconds of a forum search before accusing me of dishonesty and leaving the discussion with one great tantrum?