DUST Search - (Feedback) AV Grenades

Joseph Ridgeson wrote:

If my Tank is destroyed, the culprit is 4 times out of 5 AV grenades. And why not use them? Unlike other AV weapons, you sacrifice something so small in order to utilize it. Want to use a Forge Gun? You have to be in a Heavy suit and use up your one Primary weapon slot as well as the weapon slowing you down when charging. Want to use a Swarm Launcher? You lose a huge portion of your ability to fight back against infantry, to the point that you are almost a free kill, and the weapon requires you to lock on before you fire. AV grenades do not really have that large of a drawback. The only disadvantage is that you give up your ability to care Flux/Locus grenades but your primary weapon is more than enough to fight off other infantry.

Add to the fact they seem to do the most damage of the other AV Weapons. A standard Swarm Launcher seems to do about 650 or so to my Tank while an AV grenade does upwards of 800+. Packed AV grenades hit upwards of 1,000. This means that two infantry with a nanohive can basically kill my Tank in next to no time at all. They are the only AV weapon that are capable of being used from complete safety from the Tank as they can be thrown from cover. They also do not leave you in an awkward state when enemy infantry come after you. You don't need to weapon switch; you simply shoot them with your primary weapon that is already out. No fuss, no muss.

They are also the only AV skill that gives access to anti-infantry weapons. A single skill governs one's ability to get 3 separate weapons. Look at any thread that brings up the imbalance of AV to Vehicles and the AV grenade will be the one getting the most flak.

These seem to be out of line with other AV weapons.

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Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 183	Posted - 2013.05.27 10:49:00 - [1] - Quote If my Tank is destroyed, the culprit is 4 times out of 5 AV grenades. And why not use them? Unlike other AV weapons, you sacrifice something so small in order to utilize it. Want to use a Forge Gun? You have to be in a Heavy suit and use up your one Primary weapon slot as well as the weapon slowing you down when charging. Want to use a Swarm Launcher? You lose a huge portion of your ability to fight back against infantry, to the point that you are almost a free kill, and the weapon requires you to lock on before you fire. AV grenades do not really have that large of a drawback. The only disadvantage is that you give up your ability to care Flux/Locus grenades but your primary weapon is more than enough to fight off other infantry. Add to the fact they seem to do the most damage of the other AV Weapons. A standard Swarm Launcher seems to do about 650 or so to my Tank while an AV grenade does upwards of 800+. Packed AV grenades hit upwards of 1,000. This means that two infantry with a nanohive can basically kill my Tank in next to no time at all. They are the only AV weapon that are capable of being used from complete safety from the Tank as they can be thrown from cover. They also do not leave you in an awkward state when enemy infantry come after you. You don't need to weapon switch; you simply shoot them with your primary weapon that is already out. No fuss, no muss. They are also the only AV skill that gives access to anti-infantry weapons. A single skill governs one's ability to get 3 separate weapons. Look at any thread that brings up the imbalance of AV to Vehicles and the AV grenade will be the one getting the most flak. These seem to be out of line with other AV weapons.
Belial Farceus Shadow Company HQ 41	Posted - 2013.05.27 11:28:00 - [2] - Quote Lol. So being able to oneshot infantry with a proto blaster isn't enough? :/ I agree that vehicles needs a look at but you want the only weapon basic infantry has against you nerfed to **** or gone? Sounds like QQ to me... most of the time I can't even get close to a tank unless it's in an urban area.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY 128	Posted - 2013.05.27 11:41:00 - [3] - Quote i've started to use MLT tanks to move in urban areas, lose a STD tank for a couple of AV nades it's not worth.
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 291	Posted - 2013.05.27 12:03:00 - [4] - Quote I believe that the problem is with tactics, HAVs are not invincible. It should take the entire 6 man squad to run a tank and support it. The mercs in the tank should be jumping out to defend a rep while the three remaining mercs follow in a logi LAV to defend against AV and for tranfers/reps. Also if you can get hit with nades then you are too close.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY 128	Posted - 2013.05.27 12:25:00 - [5] - Quote if you use blasters you have to be close
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 390	Posted - 2013.05.27 12:44:00 - [6] - Quote If it's a matter of sacrificing equipment slots, let's not forget that the guy in the tank hasn't actually sacrificed anything. You can come onto the field with every and any fitting in the game, then call a vehicle. Vehicles require no equipment concessions on the part of the user. AV grenade users are only sacrificing a grenade slot, true... but that's more than any driver in the game. AV grenades are also super-specific in their use. Infantry? Worthless. Installations? Does nothing. Dropships? Good luck throwing that high. Ground vehicles are basically their only use. Grenades are also very short range, relatively speaking. When can people get a drop on you with grenades? Is it in crowded areas? The city places? Places where they can sneak up behind you with cover? Because, tanks are SUPPOSED to suck in urban environments. It negates the advantages of tanks. Consider The Battle of Grozny for a recent example, but it's not a new thing. Perhaps you shouldn't expect tanks to be invincible super-beings capable of shrugging off infantry assaults from all sides without significant support. Historical tanks have mostly been infantry support vehicles, not death stars.
Harpyja DUST University Ivy League 57	Posted - 2013.05.27 12:55:00 - [7] - Quote I'll be fine with either of these three things: Reduce AV grenade damage. I don't see how they do a substantial amount of damage compared to locus grenades. Even if they are more 'special,' in the real world an explosion outside an object loses a substantial amount of energy away from the object. This is still deadly to infantry but tanks can withstand grenades. Remove homing ability of AV grenades. It's stupid how they home in on vehicles if there's another structure closer to the player, such as a supply depot. Why don't they home in on that instead? It's closer and sufficiently big enough. Increase acceleration of tanks. I swear that infantry can beat my HAV in a 50 meter race. At least give us the ability to run away from people who set up nanohives right next to us and spam AV grenades to kingdom come.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 390	Posted - 2013.05.27 13:05:00 - [8] - Quote Harpyja wrote: I'll be fine with either of these three things: Reduce AV grenade damage. I don't see how they do a substantial amount of damage compared to locus grenades. Even if they are more 'special,' in the real world an explosion outside an object loses a substantial amount of energy away from the object. This is still deadly to infantry but tanks can withstand grenades. Remove homing ability of AV grenades. It's stupid how they home in on vehicles if there's another structure closer to the player, such as a supply depot. Why don't they home in on that instead? It's closer and sufficiently big enough. Increase acceleration of tanks. I swear that infantry can beat my HAV in a 50 meter race. At least give us the ability to run away from people who set up nanohives right next to us and spam AV grenades to kingdom come. The point of the homing is that the explosion is happening flush with the vehicle armor The homing trait is to make them viable - the way hit detection is in this game, it would be nigh-impossible to hit a fast LAV without homing. Also, tracking anti-armor munitions exist now. I'd assume vehicles and supply depots are pretty disparate in their mode of functioning - the grenades are specific - probably tracking engines. Learn to have infantry supporting your infantry support vehicle. If you're caught without a crew or infantry support, then you're playing the game wrong. If you get wiped by one guy with grenades while having infantry support, then your team needs to practice more.
Aeon Amadi Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 1395	Posted - 2013.05.27 13:09:00 - [9] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: If my Tank is destroyed, the culprit is 4 times out of 5 AV grenades. And why not use them? Unlike other AV weapons, you sacrifice something so small in order to utilize it. Want to use a Forge Gun? You have to be in a Heavy suit and use up your one Primary weapon slot as well as the weapon slowing you down when charging. Want to use a Swarm Launcher? You lose a huge portion of your ability to fight back against infantry, to the point that you are almost a free kill, and the weapon requires you to lock on before you fire. AV grenades do not really have that large of a drawback. The only disadvantage is that you give up your ability to care Flux/Locus grenades but your primary weapon is more than enough to fight off other infantry. Add to the fact they seem to do the most damage of the other AV Weapons. A standard Swarm Launcher seems to do about 650 or so to my Tank while an AV grenade does upwards of 800+. Packed AV grenades hit upwards of 1,000. This means that two infantry with a nanohive can basically kill my Tank in next to no time at all. They are the only AV weapon that are capable of being used from complete safety from the Tank as they can be thrown from cover. They also do not leave you in an awkward state when enemy infantry come after you. You don't need to weapon switch; you simply shoot them with your primary weapon that is already out. No fuss, no muss. They are also the only AV skill that gives access to anti-infantry weapons. A single skill governs one's ability to get 3 separate weapons. Look at any thread that brings up the imbalance of AV to Vehicles and the AV grenade will be the one getting the most flak. These seem to be out of line with other AV weapons. Yanno, other than the fact that you have to get in <10m to a TANK in order for them to work.
Harpyja DUST University Ivy League 57	Posted - 2013.05.27 13:18:00 - [10] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Harpyja wrote: I'll be fine with either of these three things: Reduce AV grenade damage. I don't see how they do a substantial amount of damage compared to locus grenades. Even if they are more 'special,' in the real world an explosion outside an object loses a substantial amount of energy away from the object. This is still deadly to infantry but tanks can withstand grenades. Remove homing ability of AV grenades. It's stupid how they home in on vehicles if there's another structure closer to the player, such as a supply depot. Why don't they home in on that instead? It's closer and sufficiently big enough. Increase acceleration of tanks. I swear that infantry can beat my HAV in a 50 meter race. At least give us the ability to run away from people who set up nanohives right next to us and spam AV grenades to kingdom come. The point of the homing is that the explosion is happening flush with the vehicle armor The homing trait is to make them viable - the way hit detection is in this game, it would be nigh-impossible to hit a fast LAV without homing. Also, tracking anti-armor munitions exist now. I'd assume vehicles and supply depots are pretty disparate in their mode of functioning - the grenades are specific - probably tracking engines. Learn to have infantry supporting your infantry support vehicle. If you're caught without a crew or infantry support, then you're playing the game wrong. If you get wiped by one guy with grenades while having infantry support, then your team needs to practice more. Only if the grenade gets bolted down to the armor, which it is not and its highly doubtful magnetism can ever be that strong. Even if it is, then it should get attracted to your dropsuit the moment you throw it. Homing trait makes AV grenades skill-less weapons. It's a simple throw and forget and also involves no specialization. I'd be happy if there's a skill that grants and increases homing ability, but has something like 5x training multiplier and requires Grenadier 5 (or whatever the skill is that unlocks grenades). It's called using the HAV against you / as a wall. My team I'm supporting is to my right, you come to the left and pop down a nanohive next to me and spam AV grenades until I finally uncover you to my team.

Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 184	Posted - 2013.05.27 22:41:00 - [11] - Quote I never said they should be nerfed to hell or gone. I simply stated they are out of line with other AV weapons. Stating that the Tank sacrifices nothing to be on the field, I humbly disagree. The Tank sacrifices/risks quite a large amount of ISK, as well as the SP tag. I won't go too deeply into the SP thing because I believe it to be more or less okay to spend that amount into Tanks. However, the price tag on packed AV grenades is far shorter than my 180mm Plates + Carapace Hardeners + Repairer. When it comes to ISK/SP to a Grenade slot I think that Tanks hold a higher sacrifice. Virtually every map has some kind of cover and not strictly what you would call "urban." Be it rocks, ridges, or some cracks, there is always some cover. The map with Point A in the middle (the one with the CRU and Supply) is the only one I would strictly call urban. On that map, the Tank is weak. I accept that. However, it is still my point that AV grenades are out of line with the other AV weapons. Being tongue in cheek: "why does everyone only use AV grenades as their go-to AV weapon?" I don't plan to be invincible, never have. But what I do what is the ebb and flow of a battle. I call in a Tank, so enemies have to go Swarms or Forge Guns to counter me. Because they have so many dedicated AV, my infantry start to push them. Because the infantry start to push them, they lose some of their AV. At the moment, it just means that every infantry person comes in with AV grenades and continues being effective against infantry while heavily negating my presence. Be well.
Wojciak Soldiers Of One Network Orion Empire 25	Posted - 2013.05.28 14:07:00 - [12] - Quote To all the people saying a tank should be taken out buy a squad of people, you are not right. One person can take out a HAV, this mostly will happen in a Urban environment. The way one person can cripple a Tank is taking out the treads, or using a Anti-Armor shoulder mounted weapon. Now to have this ONE PERSON take out a Tank/HAV they need a squad or team to keep the enemy infantry from killing them. So if you want to nerf AV nades then let me turn you in to a expensive turret but crippling you, and that i think would make you more angry.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon Plus 501	Posted - 2013.05.28 14:53:00 - [13] - Quote shaman oga wrote: It seems that AV guys want to solo a tank and it should not be possible, but they have their magic button, throw and forget. Killing a tank should require teamwork and now it's not like that. No. It doesn't take multiple people to operate a tank, it doesn't take multiple people to down a tank. AV grenades cannot solo a decent tank. Decent tanks will only die to multiple people throwing them at it. A good forge gunner can solo a decent tank. That's fine, and indeed when proto tanks arrive it may well be difficult for them to solo tanks. Nerfing AV grenades significantly or buffing tanks significantly will lead to people using tanks as pubstomping machines, which is a terrible thing for this game. I'm sure it's fun for the tanker to go 40/0, but it's not fun for anyone else.
exolden shadovar Dead Crow Legion 3	Posted - 2013.05.28 16:04:00 - [14] - Quote Its the cod guys they think anything the can't kill by themself with two shots To the ankle is op......


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