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Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
170
   |
Posted - 2013.05.25 00:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
As with any discussion regarding game balance, it's important to first agree on definitions, standards, ideals, or all of the above if necessary, so let's first define the role of the Tactical Assault rifle:
The distinguishing features of the Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) include the dot sight, the optimal and maximum range, the damage, the firing type (semi-auto), the rate of fire, and the name itself. Even when you only consider that the TAR in comparison to the AR has a more precise aiming sight, longer range, and is single shot, it is safe to assume that the role of the TAR is precise single-shot placement at ranges including and extending beyond that of an AR.
Now that it's established what a TAR is supposed to do, corrections can be made based on deviations from this role -- especially deviations which replace the traditional roles of other weapon types. For the sake of brevity, I won't define the role of the Assault Rifle (AR), but will do so as needed. Also, my personal testing and experience is with the Tactical Duvolle AR, but there is no reason why these changes shouldn't apply to the GLU-5 as well. So first of all, this may or nay not surprise you, but here is the first baseline that should be established:
There should be no change in damage, optimal range, or maximum range.
This is what most defines the TAR's role, thus it should not be changed.
What should be changed, however, directly relates to its defined role and the deviations from that role which replace the role of the regular AR. To put it more simply, wherever the TAR is "stepping on the toes" of the AR, or being more useful than the AR where it shouldn't be, this needs to be changed.
1. Reduced Rate of Fire
In my personal experience with the gun I never thought of this as a problem, but upon further testing I realized how exploitable and contrary to the TAR role it really is. As listed in the weapon stats, the rate of fire (ROF) is 789, which is higher than the Duvolle AR's 750. This alone is perplexing, but understandable when you consider that it's a semi-auto gun. It's not full auto, so who cares what the ROF is? While it is difficult to achieve this speed with repeated tapping of the finger, the idea that the increased ROF is an odd but harmless statistic is completely thrown out the window when you introduce a controller with a turbo feature. Now the rate of fire is completely exploitable, causing the TAR to be far superior to the AR in close and medium-range combat.
For comparison, I tried the Breach variant of ARs and found that its ROF of 400 seemed pretty acceptible for TAR. A little higher or lower may not be a huge deal, but definitely not more than 500. For those interested in some hard numbers behind this, I did a little math for comparison:
Duvolle AR: 37.4 DMG x 750 ROF = 28050 DMG per unit time
Duvolle TAR: 78.5 DMG x 789.5 ROF = 61975 DMG per unit time
Now, if you wanted to make the TAR's damage per unit time equal to the Duvolle AR, you would have to reduce the ROF to 357.3 (28050 / 78.5 = 357.3). This is why I believe that a ROF of 400, 420, or even 450 might still be appropriate. Keep in mind, the weapons are NOT equal. The TAR requires AR Proficiency I, so the DMG per unit time should be higher. Ultimately, however, the decision regarding ROF should not be made based on DMG per unit time, but rather an acceptible human limitation of button-pressing speed. In other words, the ideal ROF should try to match and not exceed the upper limit of a human's capacity to tap the trigger as quickly as possible.
However, this problem, regardless of rate of fire, is further compounded by the need for...
2. Increased bullet spread at hip fire.
This is, I believe, the number one issue regarding the the TAR being over-powered. At first I tried to operate the gun as expected -- I set myself up for shots at medium-long range, capitalizing on my optimal range advantage. Soon I realized that at 20, 30, almost up to 40 meters I could tap the trigger as quickly as I could from hip-fire and still take down targets. Now, I estimate that it takes around 6-8 shots to kill someone when aiming center-mass with the TAR. The math, damage mods included, also supports this. Even with a restricted ROF of 400, these shots happen very quickly. With the current rate of fire, it's incredibly efficient. Simply put, hip-fire bullet spread of the TAR is way too tight, completely negating the role of the AR in close to medium range situations.
So now we have to ask ourselves what is appropriate bullet-spread. Again, the role of the TAR is medium-long range encounters using the dot sight, and the role of the AR should surpass the TAR in close and medium range situations. Since I have no idea how to quantify bullet spread over different ranges, the best way to describe what is appropriate would be to give an situation and tweak the bullet spread mechanics based upon that.
You are using the TAR and you want to find a different angle of attack. You rush forward, turn around a blind corner and an enemy is right there facing you, 10 meters away. It's far too close for the dot sight, so you tap the button as quickly as you can from hip fire. You kill the enemy, but take significant damage as well.
I believe that the TAR should definitely be reliable from hip-fire in those "Oh crap!" 0-15 meter confrontations, but should be increasingly unreliable beyond that point. A player should feel like it's pointless to attempt hip-firing from 30 meters or beyond.
But again, even with a reduced rate of fire and increased bullet spread at hip fire, players will still likely play the odds and fire at opponents from 30 meters and beyond considering only 6 - 8 of those shots need to hit their mark. The reason for this gamble is because there needs to be... |
Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
170
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 00:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
3. Reduced clip size.
Now, I know what you're thinking -- it's already 30. That's half the amount of the Duvolle AR clip size. But to that, I would ask this question:
Q: How many enemies can you kill with a single clip of a Duvolle Assault Rifle?
A:1, maybe 2, depending on their suit.
Most of us AR users reload after each kill, and even between each couple bursts of fire. However, think of those times when you are very close to your opponent, face to face, strafing, and need to unload as much as you can while your crosshair remains on your opponent as much as possible. It takes most of a clip. You might kill 2 with a single clip, but you're certainly not killing 3. Okay, stop. Are you satisfied with my anecdotal evidence? Cuz I'm not. Here are the numbers:
600 EHP Enemy vs. Duvolle AR: 600 / ~40 DMG = 15 bullets...?
Which takes how long? 750 bullets / 60 seconds = 15 bullets / x seconds
--> (15x60)=750x --> 900/750=x --> x = 1.2 seconds
This actually sounds about right. A second is a long time in battle. However, this assumes 100% accuracy, which nobody is with an AR. However, it's reasonable to assume that the accuracy in close quarters is much greater than a good statistical average of around 20%. Let's just say it takes about 1.5 seconds and about half a clip on a good day.
Now, to accurately compare the TAR with the AR in terms of enemies killed per clip, one needs to consider the nature of the weapon. By being semi-auto rather than fully automatic, the TAR somewhat encourages bullet conservation; you can only pull the trigger so fast, and you're less likely to pull it when your crosshair is not on your target. This differs pretty greatly from AR behavior, where holding the trigger and sweeping over your target can be pretty effective at most ranges.
So with the AR, you always reload after a kill, because if you started firing at the second guy you'd probably have to reload before you killed them. The TAR, on the other hand, only needs 6 - 8 bullets to hit, so blowing through all 30 bullets from hipfire at medium range is a pretty good tactic, especially considering the firing rate and bullet-spread from hip.
TAR 30 clip size \ 7 bullets to kill (@ 100% accuracy) = 4.3 enemies killed
AR 60 clip size \ 15 bullets to kill (@ 100% accuracy) = 4 enemies killed
Hey, did I just invalidate my own 'clip size' argument with math? You might think so, but now we must refer back to the role of the TAR and the first statement. I never had any problem with the range or damage of the TAR. But now you must ask yourself: Where is the anecdotal evidence for amount of kills per clip size, and how does that relate to the desired play style?
If we accept that 1-2 kills is suitable for an AR per clip size, then should we also accept that 1-2 kills is suitable for the TAR clip size? That's 15 bullets per clip, but I think 20 is more appropriate. When the TAR is used as intended, 20 bullets is enough to kill 2 targets before reloading. It is meant for precise shots, so 7/10 bullets hitting the mark is 70% accuracy. That sounds right for a tactical gun. Even with 50% accuracy, you're definitely getting 1 kill per clip. That's right on par with the AR. (Remember? You can kill 1 enemy, but probably not 2 before having to reload.) With a clip size of 30, you are encouraging hip-firing at medium range and giving an unncessary advantage to those using it correctly with the sights at long range.
To conclude, here are the 3 ways to nerf the TAR:
1. Reduced rate of fire so it cannot exceed the reasonable human extent of button-pressing speed. (ROF ~400)
2. Increased hip-fire bullet-spread so that an AR is by far a better option beyond 10-15 meters.
3. Reduced clip size to 20 to discourage rapid hip-firing and stay within 2 kills per clip size.
Thanks to all of you who read all of this! It took pretty much the whole day to make, so I appreciate it. I just want to see the TAR fulfilling its role as fairly as possible without making the AR role obsolete. I really hope my suggestions and evidence supporting those suggestions helps CCP apply changes as quickly as possible.
Sincerely,
Matakage |
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
168
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Posted - 2013.05.25 01:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
I was not expecting this. Good post. |
XiBravo
TeamPlayers
EoN.
52
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Posted - 2013.05.25 01:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
The problem is calculating the rate of fire at the max rate for the tac when that rate is not possable to achieve. Completely throws off the arguments.
*edit I see you acknowledged that nvm |
Obodiah Garro
Tech Guard
General Tso's Alliance
11
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Posted - 2013.05.25 01:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
For every TAC cry thread, no matter how well presented, it boils down to a simple whine that sees a problem with a weapon instead of seeing the skill poured into it by its user.
Why not give nice mathematical representations of a persons statistical improvement in survivability if they move/ take cover/ fire back etc. Ive had good days with the TAC and bad days with the TAC, am pretty sure the weapon itself stays the same but on the good days the targets lemming towards me, are oblivious to the dangers of being out in the open or don't have the mental capacity to adapt. On the bad days well ive been sniped, out TAC'ed, stabbed in the back, hell, use your head people. If anything the TAC is doing what it should be doing.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
4636
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Posted - 2013.05.25 01:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76001&find=unread |
Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
170
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 02:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76001&find=unread
Thanks, I'll re-post this in there. |
Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
170
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 02:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
By the way, I totally posted this in the wrong forum. I wanted it to go in Feedback/Requests. :\
Can I move it myself or do I have to send a request? |
Ecshon Autorez
Nova Tech Marines
Hephaestus Forge Alliance
30
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Posted - 2013.05.25 04:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
The best post I've seen about the TARs needed nerfs. Well done. Golf clap Golf clap. (anyone get the reference?)
If you cant move the thread yourself and the GMs, Devs, ect. aren't helping, you can always make a thread in feedback with the same topic, but simply links to this thread. I feel fairly confident that if doing that violates a rule that they'll let it slide thanks to the great work you've done. Unfortunately, it's only a temporary solution since there will never be any posts in it, but hopefully a Dev or GM will notice it (in the short time its on front page), click the link, read the posts, and help out.
From the time I used them I thought that the BAR had a good RoF for the TAR but never posted it, never would've come up with the others though, once again, good job. |
Synthetic Perception
Venilen Eugenics Agency
18
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Posted - 2013.05.25 05:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Obodiah Garro wrote:For every TAC cry thread, no matter how well presented, it boils down to a simple whine that sees a problem with a weapon instead of seeing the skill poured into it by its user.
For every TAC thread where people bring up legitimate points, no matter how well presented it always boils down to a few "skilled" TAC AR users crying the gun is perfectly fine the way it is
I put enough SP into it to get the GLU-TAC before my respec. I wanted to try this thing out and see how "hard" it was to use.
Even WITHOUT any damage mods is was easy mode, the thing has zero recoil at all.
It out performs the SMG in CQC as well.
WITH damage mods you get things like this gun one shotting a scout with 3 complex shield extenders. It is frustrating to finally close the distance gap on this gun and then have it crush you in CQC.
My hope is that CCP doesn't change anything until AFTER the optional respec time is completed.
Those tears would be glorious, could you even imagine?  |
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Ecshon Autorez
Nova Tech Marines
Hephaestus Forge Alliance
33
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Posted - 2013.05.26 00:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Matakage wrote:3. Reduced clip size.
Now, I know what you're thinking -- it's already 30.
I think it used to be 24. |
syzygiet
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2013.05.26 11:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
The TAR should function like the SG550 aka autosnipers from counter strike so it needs a slight nerf on the ROF and huge increase in recoil. |
Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
253
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 19:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
syzygiet wrote:The GLU TAR has 24 rounds a clip, the Duvolle has 30, honestly they should both have 24. The TAR should function like the SG550 aka autosnipers from counter strike so it needs a slight nerf on the ROF and huge increase in recoil.
I stand by my 20 rounds per clip argument. Here's why again:
7 bullets from the Duv. Tactical AR is enough to kill just about anyone. The normal ARs can kill 1, maybe 2 people per clip. 2 people at most, but definitely not 3. Since the Tactical AR is designed for accuracy, 70% accuracy is not unreasonable.
Therefore, if you have 20 bullets, that's 10 bullets for 2 targets at 70% accuracy. But that's a best-case scenario. Even if you're only 50% accurate, you're still definitely killing the first guy with 20 bullets.
And lastly, keep in mind that the purpose of reducing clip size is to discourage hip-firing -- a role that should be better suited for the regular AR. One of the reasons why the tactical AR is so popular is because it replaces the usefulness of the normal AR due to its hipfire accuracy and clip size. Replacing the roles of the other weapons is the main balance issue with the Tac Ar. |
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