DUST Search - Placeholder models for missing racial varients.

RINON114 wrote:

Zeylon Rho wrote:

Laurent Cazaderon wrote:

Thing is, it's not that simple to do tech wise. We havent been able to discuss this suggestion in details with devs but it's not just about 3D models.

Yet, i still think it's a good idea to make the game much more complete quite fast. But i dont have all the keys.

Honestly, I wouldn't care if the placeholders even had something like different colors to distinguish between them. If all the missing scouts used the exact same suit model - down to the color - I'd still want it. It's the missing elements of the skill tree and missing knowledge there that create the larger issue.

The skills that are missing could be primary desires for many people. If you want to define yourself as a "gallente heavy", you're going to need to put points into "Gallente Heavy Frames", and presumably something like "Sentinel" or "Commando" as well. Even with the skill discounts, you're still looking at maxing an 8x skill and possibly a 4x one at the same time.

If CCP's solution to the wait is "save SP" because "no respec", that's a huge chunk SP to be squirreling away (3.7 mill or so). You can get a new weapon to advanced in a week or so. Getting that new suit type to proto can't happen the same way though. The nature of making investing in a given racial variant/style so time-intensive is that it makes a decision weighty. Making the decisions without all the facts is painful, similar to if EVE just completely lacked ship-types for some races. It's awkward.

Bang. On.

My only problem with this is that CCP will release new content further down the line, are we to expect placeholders every time they tell us a new feature?


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 352	Posted - 2013.05.24 07:56:00 - [1] - Quote I like this idea. I figure you could probably do the same thing with weapons too. Supposedly they already had internal testing for things like the rail rifle at fanfest. I wouldn't care if they added the skills and let people do combat rifle/rail rifle with a tinted AR model with the appropriate firing stats until the art went live.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 361	Posted - 2013.05.25 06:30:00 - [2] - Quote Lore doesn't even matter at this point, we need to be testing the mechanics. Also, this is the second of these sorts of big CPM threads I've seen (there's that 10 page TAR one). Do these actually work? When do we get feedback from either the CPM or CCP on these things?
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 380	Posted - 2013.05.26 11:51:00 - [3] - Quote They should have this go live sooner, rather than later, what with the respecs starting Monday.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 397	Posted - 2013.05.27 15:04:00 - [4] - Quote Looks like near-universal approval for this idea. Has the CPM brought it to CCP?
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 417	Posted - 2013.05.28 13:02:00 - [5] - Quote Let us know what the feelings are on this up high, CCP/CPM/Jenza...
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 422	Posted - 2013.05.28 22:21:00 - [6] - Quote Looking forward to some placeholders....
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 428	Posted - 2013.05.29 03:16:00 - [7] - Quote Waiting for this.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 462	Posted - 2013.05.29 20:50:00 - [8] - Quote OMG.... make it happen already!
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 464	Posted - 2013.05.29 23:57:00 - [9] - Quote Bubba Brown wrote: Encharrion wrote: How much support does this need before it happens? It seems pretty well supported to me. according to jenza Quote: let me put it this way; something like this would need the OK from someone even higher than ccp nullarbor in other words a lot CEO?
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 471	Posted - 2013.05.30 20:37:00 - [10] - Quote Should we expect a response from CCP on this at some point?

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 494	Posted - 2013.05.31 10:27:00 - [11] - Quote weeeeee
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 512	Posted - 2013.05.31 23:51:00 - [12] - Quote Get on it CCP!
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 540	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:52:00 - [13] - Quote It's a new week, and a great time for placeholders.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 542	Posted - 2013.06.04 17:28:00 - [14] - Quote BatKing Deltor wrote: do it! doooooooooooooooooooooooo it! NOW! we NEED IT! nOw! Edit: how about placeholders for the missing vehicles as well? recolor the current ones until we got the real graphics in. any info on when the combat rifle and rail rifle will be in? I wouldn't mind placeholders for vehicles as well...
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 543	Posted - 2013.06.04 21:18:00 - [15] - Quote jenza aranda wrote: i know the next step, ill be bringing this to the next large CCP CPM meeting, though i dont know how much luck ill have with it. Good luck!
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 547	Posted - 2013.06.05 15:19:00 - [16] - Quote The art we saw at fanfest for the various suits, weapons, and vehicles looked pretty polished. I assumed it was just screenshots of things that had already been modeled. Is there a step between producing articulated models and having "finished" art assets that I'm missing? In either case, I'm ready for some placeholders and the full complement of skills.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 631	Posted - 2013.06.06 13:20:00 - [17] - Quote Anything that gets more gear into the game sooner, even with placeholder models, is a good idea to me. Skill and character planning is long-haul in this game. Having all the information is crucial.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 656	Posted - 2013.06.07 01:09:00 - [18] - Quote KatanaPT wrote: You know whats sad: No DEV or GM has yet to post in this topic. Thats sad... Maybe all the suits are going live in the update this month, and they want to surprise us. Also, the missing dropships, just because I think it would be cool.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 746	Posted - 2013.06.10 23:54:00 - [19] - Quote Type 2s tied to the same old Amarr skill would defeat the point though. We'd want placeholder suits... to use with the ACTUAL skills, so our SP is spend towards the variant we actually want. Otherwise, you spec into Amarr Sentinel and use the Type 3 (Caldari or whatever) suit, and then you're stuck with points in Amarr Sentinel when the finished Caldari model is released and the variants disappear from the market.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 755	Posted - 2013.06.11 20:34:00 - [20] - Quote The E3 video shows new ROLES but no PLACEHOLDER SUITS. So, there might be a new role for heavies/light frames, but you're stuck with the same old "variety" of only Amarr racial or Gallente/Minmater Light. Please add the skills for the missing races. If you're going to doom us to the same damn heavy suit for eternity, at least give us the skills for the other suits and let us use that heavy/those lights as placeholders until you add the actual models for the other suits. I couldn't care less about new roles if they're limited to the same old variants we already have. Where's Amarr Light? Where's Caldari Heavy?

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 768	Posted - 2013.06.13 02:14:00 - [21] - Quote People found other things to rant about I guess. That or people got tired of bringing attention to an issue that didn't warrant response after 17 pages.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 771	Posted - 2013.06.13 16:31:00 - [22] - Quote Banjo Robertson wrote: I'm for this. Everyone is, I think.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 775	Posted - 2013.06.14 10:47:00 - [23] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Thing is, it's not that simple to do tech wise. We havent been able to discuss this suggestion in details with devs but it's not just about 3D models. Yet, i still think it's a good idea to make the game much more complete quite fast. But i dont have all the keys. Honestly, I wouldn't care if the placeholders even had something like different colors to distinguish between them. If all the missing scouts used the exact same suit model - down to the color - I'd still want it. It's the missing elements of the skill tree and missing knowledge there that create the larger issue. The skills that are missing could be primary desires for many people. If you want to define yourself as a "gallente heavy", you're going to need to put points into "Gallente Heavy Frames", and presumably something like "Sentinel" or "Commando" as well. Even with the skill discounts, you're still looking at maxing an 8x skill and possibly a 4x one at the same time. If CCP's solution to the wait is "save SP" because "no respec", that's a huge chunk SP to be squirreling away (3.7 mill or so). You can get a new weapon to advanced in a week or so. Getting that new suit type to proto can't happen the same way though. The nature of making investing in a given racial variant/style so time-intensive is that it makes a decision weighty. Making the decisions without all the facts is painful, similar to if EVE just completely lacked ship-types for some races. It's awkward.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 783	Posted - 2013.06.14 20:45:00 - [24] - Quote RINON114 wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Thing is, it's not that simple to do tech wise. We havent been able to discuss this suggestion in details with devs but it's not just about 3D models. Yet, i still think it's a good idea to make the game much more complete quite fast. But i dont have all the keys. Honestly, I wouldn't care if the placeholders even had something like different colors to distinguish between them. If all the missing scouts used the exact same suit model - down to the color - I'd still want it. It's the missing elements of the skill tree and missing knowledge there that create the larger issue. The skills that are missing could be primary desires for many people. If you want to define yourself as a "gallente heavy", you're going to need to put points into "Gallente Heavy Frames", and presumably something like "Sentinel" or "Commando" as well. Even with the skill discounts, you're still looking at maxing an 8x skill and possibly a 4x one at the same time. If CCP's solution to the wait is "save SP" because "no respec", that's a huge chunk SP to be squirreling away (3.7 mill or so). You can get a new weapon to advanced in a week or so. Getting that new suit type to proto can't happen the same way though. The nature of making investing in a given racial variant/style so time-intensive is that it makes a decision weighty. Making the decisions without all the facts is painful, similar to if EVE just completely lacked ship-types for some races. It's awkward. Bang. On. My only problem with this is that CCP will release new content further down the line, are we to expect placeholders every time they tell us a new feature? I wouldn't mind placeholders for lots of things. I'd like an Amarr pilot with an Amarr dropship, for example. I can't skill into Amarr light frames (don't exist), Amarr pilots (role doesn't exist), or Amarr Dropships (don't exist). If I wanted to skill into something equivalent, I'd basically be stuck aligning with Caldari/Gallente at a huge expense of SP. It would take months to earn that same SP to get the same degree of skill in Amarr if it suddenly released. The alternative is saving my SP till those things are released, but.... we don't know when that will happen. So, you look at gimping yourself and not spending SP while you wait. If they just threw a Gallente dropship (model-wise) with the Amarr stats up, and added the skills... it wouldn't be the same of course. But my SP wouldn't be wasted. Same deal with the scout suit. Obviously the Gallente suit isn't the same as an Amarr, but it allows me to both know what I'm getting into ("oh wow, the bonuses for Amarr pilots are terrible" and so on) and to put my hard-earned SP towards my eventual goal as opposed to something I don't want. I don't think the "tech" restrictions of placeholders are as complicated as people make them out to be. The set of variables that would be pointing towards the appropriate model just gets pointed at an existing model instead. Like I said, I don't care if it looks exactly the same - I care if I spend two months of SP on something that isn't the suit/area I actually wanted to spec into. The skills matter. The is entirely because they've setup the game so that it -does- take months (assuming max SP) to get skilled up in something like a dropsuit. Why take X-race to proto if it's not even the one you want?
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 785	Posted - 2013.06.15 12:01:00 - [25] - Quote I think there's already a lot of stuff that's not really articulated in-game. Like the viewer model for all the ARs having scopes, and the general lack of distinction between different ARs. People will plan their skills by the skills, when they notice the suits' not unique, it'll be like a number of other problems in game that have no documentation (memory leak, etc.). Not documenting the fact it's a placeholder graphic is a minor issue compared to the lack of the skills on the tree.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 787	Posted - 2013.06.15 17:24:00 - [26] - Quote The life-threatening disease here is the lack of models. Placeholder models are like a dialysis machine. Now, renal failure is far from the only thing that kill you. You can live without a kidney for a little while. However, it would be silly to avoid dialysis because "it's not a real kidney" when you've got serious issues there. It's a short-term solution to a serious problem. I think everyone can agree that the ideal situation is to have the real kidneys transplanted in at a later date. The dialysis (placeholder models) can help the body (game) continue to function properly and the fluids (SP) wind up appropriately spread throughout. It has two benefits: it keeps the body (game) healthier while waiting for the real kidney (models), but also keeps things (SP) properly distributed. This saves you from the need to completely replace all the blood (respec) or something like that. If you don't use dialysis (placeholders) and the wait for the kidney (models) is overly long, then the body (game/playerbase) might reject the organs (new content) as they'll be unable to use it properly and the fluids (SP) will be stuck in other places. ... I think that metaphor works.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 803	Posted - 2013.06.16 07:07:00 - [27] - Quote I do wonder about them abandoning the future models, actually. Consider the framerate, rendering, and other hijinks we've seen in uprising. It seems like the PS3 (or the game engine) is struggling. Not having people render farther off when you're using a shorter range weapon was an optimization, not a bug! Think of other Unreal Engine 3 games that have been released for the PS3 (many are quite nice looking): Bioshock Infinite, Dishonored, Borderlands, Arkham, Mass Effect series - you get the picture. Note that more recent titles (Dishonored) took some interesting routes with the graphics. Dishonored has somewhat more stylized enemies instead of super-crisp photo-realism. Borderlands also has a somewhat stylized approach. Games attempting more clean, defined textures like Mass Effect often have that initial texture pop issue (horrible horrible horrible on ME1). However, there's also the matter of a limited number of unique models on the field. How many different models would you say wind up on the field in mass effect 2 battles? There's usually a pretty limited set: your crew (Shepard +2) and a predefined set of enemies that probably only have a couple of models. Scenes with the whole crew tend not to be interactive. Engine deficiency? Platform deficiency? I don't know. If you have a 16 on 16 with 12 different models (4 races x 3 sizes) and however many kinds of vehicles... seems like a lot more than those other Unreal 3 games. I don't think the placeholder suits would necessarily mark a trend in laziness, but I do wonder about the system and engine being able to handle all of the content in the end. People talk about the PC being held back by consoles sometimes. I wonder if a PS4 version of Dust would be held back by the practical limitations of the PS3's support of Dust. I don't think texturing a placeholder model (tint an Amarr suit Green for Gallente) would be a big deal either. I think it's just exasperation with the state of the tree that leads me to say... "Just use the models we have... seriously." because I'd rather get that strategic character planning element implemented sooner rather than later. It's not to say I don't care about art, but I think ability to define your role/character within the racial boundaries of the EVE universe being limited hinders a player's ability to relate to the universe. To take a prior example: I decide I identify with the Amarr: I decide I want to be stealthy scout-Amarr... or a pilot. Those aren't options. Races that are theoretically equal in "scope" of options aren't actually represented in game. The famous counter-example of the Heavy is equally appropriate - I want to be a heavy weapons guy fighting for.... "blank" of "blank" race. Well, your only option is Amarr Heavy gear. In effect, I think the backstory and ability to create a narrative that relates to the universe is hamstrung by the lack of options. Your race "choice" on creation is one matter, but your dropsuit is going to be the more present show of your alignment in some ways. Having those choices is more important than art - in the short term (and in the long as much as the SP investment impacts it).
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 803	Posted - 2013.06.16 08:09:00 - [28] - Quote Aoena Rays wrote: The horse is dead, ccp will clearly not do it because it is silly to implement unfinished stuff to the game. Let the horse go. That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. We have all sorts of things in-game that do nothing and aren't finished. Arguably, that describes the game itself.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 819	Posted - 2013.06.17 06:52:00 - [29] - Quote Still hoping to hear from devs on this point. I would think using placeholder models would dodge any memory issues related to new suits for the time being as well.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 825	Posted - 2013.06.17 16:12:00 - [30] - Quote Color-swapping is basically what people were originally suggesting for placeholder suits. Turn an Amarr Heavy green, call it a Gallente Heavy Placeholder.

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 825	Posted - 2013.06.17 17:46:00 - [31] - Quote Nikea Nei wrote: Will Caldari Heavy have more shields than a Caldari Logi?
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 828	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:09:00 - [32] - Quote ISuperstar wrote: So any update whether CCP did the smart thing and is going with this or did they kitten up again and turn it down? No response from CCP so far. There'd be a blue tag beside this... 19 page post if they had.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 843	Posted - 2013.06.18 08:27:00 - [33] - Quote Another Heavy SOB wrote: Nikea Nei wrote: Will Caldari Heavy have more shields than a Caldari Logi? I would think so, maybe not base stats but definitely with modules. My ideal Proto Caldari heavy would be... 610 shield 200armor, 6 and 8 second shield delay, 30HP per sec shield regen, 4.2 m/s walk, 5.8 sprint. Less total stamina and slower regen then Ammar. 4 high and 2 low. Gallente should be 2 high 4 low while Ammar moves to 3 high 3 low. Pipe dreams I'm sure but I think those module layouts would be ideal. On Topic: At this point I've lost just about all hope that this is even remotely possible. I know no one gives a kitten but if we don't see all racial variants or atleast placeholder models then I give up on Dust. Interesting ideas. I've been curious how they'd do the other heavies because the general trend has been Amarr = most combined hp & fewest slots. If you take a page from the assaults, I'm not sure if they'd give Caldari that much hp at base. At the same time, the Caldari would theoretically have many more slots than the Amarr, as is the case with the Amarr vs. every other race elsewhere. These are exactly the sort of questions that necessitate us getting a hold of the skills on these suits.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 871	Posted - 2013.06.19 04:47:00 - [34] - Quote If commandos are faster than sentinels, and minmatars are the fastest, I wonder where a Minmatar commando would be speed and HP-wise?
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 932	Posted - 2013.06.19 16:18:00 - [35] - Quote Wallaby1 wrote: i like the idea but can we have some model art so we can see what were gonna be spending our sweet hard earned sp on! It'd be different if suit skills were 1x.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 932	Posted - 2013.06.19 16:35:00 - [36] - Quote iceyburnz wrote: Wallaby1 wrote: i like the idea but can we have some model art so we can see what were gonna be spending our sweet hard earned sp on! Your wish is granted Missing 5 out of the 12... /sigh
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 936	Posted - 2013.06.20 04:11:00 - [37] - Quote iceyburnz wrote: We need those heavy suits so bad. And the caldari need another suit pretty soon. Only the medium frame is well, lame. I have to say though all the dropsuit concepts look awesome. Shame the same can't be said for HAVs. The Amarr HAV looks well, poorly concieved. The missing dropships seem a bit square-ish as well. I'm wondering how those will work.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 945	Posted - 2013.06.23 02:07:00 - [38] - Quote I've been saving SP since the last respec before the end of May (back when we had word from the CCP CEO that there was a June update...). There's still no solid word on existing suit changes or new weapons for July. Ideally that means they're putting placeholders in. It would be the smart thing to do.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1043	Posted - 2013.06.30 12:06:00 - [39] - Quote I'd be find with them lacking textures altogether if it meant we had the skills. I'd run around a glitchy black/pink blob or set of red Xs if it meant we could have the skills and use them.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1048	Posted - 2013.07.01 13:26:00 - [40] - Quote Well, I'm not sure if getting moved to Feedback is an improvement or not.

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2614	Posted - 2013.10.02 17:07:00 - [41] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Well, I'm not sure if getting moved to Feedback is an improvement or not. It's not. Feedback/Requests is where threads go to die. I guess a reply on a three-month-old post makes that point well enough.