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Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1154
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 04:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
Quote:* Weapon tiers streamlined so that more side grades are unlocked in the advanced tier and more exotic variants in the prototype tier
I don't quite see the rationale behind this:
You've removed the Burst Rifle...why? Why has the Assault Mass Driver been moved up to level 4? Same goes for Specialist shotgun and TAR. I was in a squad with a tanker and Large Accelerated missile turrets only exist in Standard and Proto, he said. I don't even want to glance at the scrambler pistols now, I used all the variants.....
I really liked the versatility that existed among weapons but now it seems that in order to support your Niche, you must delve into that weapon to the Prototype or Advanced levels just to get a handle on them.
I suggest bringing back weapon variations to their former glory and then some. I was expecting to see more weapons and variations, not less.
Also, define "exotic variants". One man's garbage is another man's treasure, so why was my beloved Burst Assault Rifle removed and my once go-to now-OP TAR moved up to ADV-PRO only?
It's a limitation that I would like to see removed, I think that the market should be a sea of items, so that our battles can be a hodgepodge jumbalaya of unique mercenaries. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
484
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 04:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Quote:* Weapon tiers streamlined so that more side grades are unlocked in the advanced tier and more exotic variants in the prototype tier I don't quite see the rationale behind this: You've removed the Burst Rifle...why? Why has the Assault Mass Driver been moved up to level 4? Same goes for Specialist shotgun and TAR. I was in a squad with a tanker and Large Accelerated missile turrets only exist in Standard and Proto, he said. I don't even want to glance at the scrambler pistols now, I used all the variants..... I really liked the versatility that existed among weapons but now it seems that in order to support your Niche, you must delve into that weapon to the Prototype or Advanced levels just to get a handle on them. I suggest bringing back weapon variations to their former glory and then some. I was expecting to see more weapons and variations, not less. Also, define "exotic variants". One man's garbage is another man's treasure, so why was my beloved Burst Assault Rifle removed and my once go-to now-OP TAR moved up to ADV-PRO only? It's a limitation that I would like to see removed, I think that the market should be a sea of items, so that our battles can be a hodgepodge jumbalaya of unique mercenaries.
If it's a niche, it should take a heavier investement to widen your options. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1156
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 04:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote: If it's a niche, it should take a heavier investement to widen your options.
Yeah that's what Level 2 and Level 4 are for: Unlocking the niche weapons (same with proficiency) But it doesn't make sense that Level unlocks less variants, it was perfectly fine in chromosome. Also, this causes a problem: Niche do not have cheaper counterparts, now if you want to actively play your role, you have to shell out unnecessary ISK for a level higher than you may want.
Niche Weapons are not OP but why ze nerf?! |
Negris Albedo
Nuevo Atlas Corporation
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 04:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:Quote:* Weapon tiers streamlined so that more side grades are unlocked in the advanced tier and more exotic variants in the prototype tier I don't quite see the rationale behind this: You've removed the Burst Rifle...why? Why has the Assault Mass Driver been moved up to level 4? Same goes for Specialist shotgun and TAR. I was in a squad with a tanker and Large Accelerated missile turrets only exist in Standard and Proto, he said. I don't even want to glance at the scrambler pistols now, I used all the variants..... I really liked the versatility that existed among weapons but now it seems that in order to support your Niche, you must delve into that weapon to the Prototype or Advanced levels just to get a handle on them. I suggest bringing back weapon variations to their former glory and then some. I was expecting to see more weapons and variations, not less. Also, define "exotic variants". One man's garbage is another man's treasure, so why was my beloved Burst Assault Rifle removed and my once go-to now-OP TAR moved up to ADV-PRO only? It's a limitation that I would like to see removed, I think that the market should be a sea of items, so that our battles can be a hodgepodge jumbalaya of unique mercenaries. If it's a niche, it should take a heavier investement to widen your options. Dear God, no. Enough with the heavy investments. We have enough of those already.
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Still blazn
Intergalactic Cannibus Cartel
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 05:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Quote:* Weapon tiers streamlined so that more side grades are unlocked in the advanced tier and more exotic variants in the prototype tier I don't quite see the rationale behind this: You've removed the Burst Rifle...why? Why has the Assault Mass Driver been moved up to level 4? Same goes for Specialist shotgun and TAR. I was in a squad with a tanker and Large Accelerated missile turrets only exist in Standard and Proto, he said. I don't even want to glance at the scrambler pistols now, I used all the variants..... I really liked the versatility that existed among weapons but now it seems that in order to support your Niche, you must delve into that weapon to the Prototype or Advanced levels just to get a handle on them. I suggest bringing back weapon variations to their former glory and then some. I was expecting to see more weapons and variations, not less. Also, define "exotic variants". One man's garbage is another man's treasure, so why was my beloved Burst Assault Rifle removed and my once go-to now-OP TAR moved up to ADV-PRO only? It's a limitation that I would like to see removed, I think that the market should be a sea of items, so that our battles can be a hodgepodge jumbalaya of unique mercenaries.
Niche Biche |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
484
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 05:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote: If it's a niche, it should take a heavier investement to widen your options.
Yeah that's what Level 2 and Level 4 are for: Unlocking the niche weapons (same with proficiency) But it doesn't make sense that Level unlocks less variants, it was perfectly fine in chromosome. Also, this causes a problem: Niche do not have cheaper counterparts, now if you want to actively play your role, you have to shell out unnecessary ISK for a level higher than you may want. Niche Weapons are not OP but why ze nerf?!
I don't think you're understanding the concept of a niche. |
Negris Albedo
Nuevo Atlas Corporation
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 05:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote: If it's a niche, it should take a heavier investement to widen your options.
Yeah that's what Level 2 and Level 4 are for: Unlocking the niche weapons (same with proficiency) But it doesn't make sense that Level unlocks less variants, it was perfectly fine in chromosome. Also, this causes a problem: Niche do not have cheaper counterparts, now if you want to actively play your role, you have to shell out unnecessary ISK for a level higher than you may want. Niche Weapons are not OP but why ze nerf?! I don't think you're understanding the concept of a niche. Since when does niche mean expensive? Such talk is asinine nonsense. |
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
797
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 05:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'd rather have more weapons than more weapon variants. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
485
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 19:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Negris Albedo wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote: If it's a niche, it should take a heavier investement to widen your options.
Yeah that's what Level 2 and Level 4 are for: Unlocking the niche weapons (same with proficiency) But it doesn't make sense that Level unlocks less variants, it was perfectly fine in chromosome. Also, this causes a problem: Niche do not have cheaper counterparts, now if you want to actively play your role, you have to shell out unnecessary ISK for a level higher than you may want. Niche Weapons are not OP but why ze nerf?! I don't think you're understanding the concept of a niche. Since when does niche mean expensive? Such talk is asinine nonsense.
If everybody had easy access to it, it wouldn't be a niche. Niche 101 |
Ulysses Knapse
Bojo's School of the Trades
393
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 19:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Negris Albedo wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote: If it's a niche, it should take a heavier investement to widen your options.
Yeah that's what Level 2 and Level 4 are for: Unlocking the niche weapons (same with proficiency) But it doesn't make sense that Level unlocks less variants, it was perfectly fine in chromosome. Also, this causes a problem: Niche do not have cheaper counterparts, now if you want to actively play your role, you have to shell out unnecessary ISK for a level higher than you may want. Niche Weapons are not OP but why ze nerf?! I don't think you're understanding the concept of a niche. Since when does niche mean expensive? Such talk is asinine nonsense. If everybody had easy access to it, it wouldn't be a niche. Niche 101 That is incredibly false. A niche weapon is just a weapon that is designed to fill a niche. For example, Flux Grenades fill a niche for anti-shield grenades. It doesn't matter how many people had access to it, it is still a niche. Locus grenades are effective against mostly armor, but are still effective against shields to an extent, and thus are not niche weapons. |
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Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1160
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 03:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:
If everybody had easy access to it, it wouldn't be a niche. Niche 101
WTF? Niche
I'm thinking you don't understand the concept of niche |
Cass Barr
Red Star. EoN.
33
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 03:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Talos Alomar wrote:I'd rather have more weapons than more weapon variants.
This |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1160
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 04:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cass Barr wrote:Talos Alomar wrote:I'd rather have more weapons than more weapon variants. This So Burst Mass Driver is no go? |
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
804
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 04:16:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Cass Barr wrote:Talos Alomar wrote:I'd rather have more weapons than more weapon variants. This So Burst Mass Driver is no go?
I'd support that only if it had a bunch or arc and was used like artillery.
burst mass driver sounds freaking sweet though. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1160
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 04:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Talos Alomar wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:Cass Barr wrote:Talos Alomar wrote:I'd rather have more weapons than more weapon variants. This So Burst Mass Driver is no go? I'd support that only if it had a bunch or arc and was used like artillery. burst mass driver sounds freaking sweet though. I would like to see more weapons as well but at the same time more weapon variants, I prize both (new weapons slightly more).
But there are a whole bunch of roles that restoring/adding variants can do:
Burst Mass Driver Assault Shotgun Burst Sniper Rifle Tactical SMG Breach Swarm Launcher etc.
I also hope for more variants than just the current 5 Breach Assault Tactical Specialist Burst |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3933
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 04:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
I agree with Bojo, bring variant back to standard tier, needing level 2 to access them was enough. EDIT: I think it may be a good idea to remove the tactical AR to create more of a niche for the scrambler rifle. |
ladwar
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
451
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 04:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Talos Alomar wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:Cass Barr wrote:Talos Alomar wrote:I'd rather have more weapons than more weapon variants. This So Burst Mass Driver is no go? I'd support that only if it had a bunch or arc and was used like artillery. burst mass driver sounds freaking sweet though. I would like to see more weapons as well but at the same time more weapon variants, I prize both (new weapons slightly more). But there are a whole bunch of roles that restoring/adding variants can do: Burst Mass Driver Assault Shotgun Burst Sniper Rifle Tactical SMG Breach Swarm Launcher etc. I also hope for more variants than just the current 5 Breach Assault Tactical Specialist Burst Burst Mass Driver-I don't understand how this will work and have balance. Assault Shotgun-not sure if I would like this added just doesn't seem to fit for lore/balancing Burst Sniper Rifle- not sure why you want this or why this should be added Tactical SMG- I thought all the SMG were the tactical variants, but no.. that breaks the sidearm code Breach Swarm Launcher- ok this is just mean to vehicles, stop it and would only work if it add an even longer lock on with an even lower RoF so im going to say naw.
shotgun niche role snipers niche role ^ just a few
they removed the lower tiers to add more sp sinks for people that liked those niches.
oh btw the advanced accelerated missile (large) is missing and there were two at201 missile launchers one being the accelerated one it must of just got lost in the move |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1163
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 05:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
ladwar wrote: Burst Mass Driver-I don't understand how this will work and have balance. Assault Shotgun-not sure if I would like this added just doesn't seem to fit for lore/balancing Burst Sniper Rifle- not sure why you want this or why this should be added Tactical SMG- I thought all the SMG were the tactical variants, but no.. that breaks the sidearm code Breach Swarm Launcher- ok this is just mean to vehicles, stop it and would only work if it add an even longer lock on with an even lower RoF so im going to say naw.
shotgun niche role snipers niche role ^ just a few
they removed the lower tiers to add more sp sinks for people that liked those niches.
oh btw the advanced accelerated missile (large) is missing and there were two at201 missile launchers one being the accelerated one it must of just got lost in the move
Ok thanks for that missile clarification: However
do not take me literally when I am asking for those weapon variants, I'm merely throwing out things to consider. I would like to see all variants for all weapons, but I'm not saying NOW NOW NOW.
There is always a way to balance a weapon variant, look at the Chromosome Scrambler Pistols for inspiration: The breach did not suck at all, the Assault kicked ass but had a drawback, Burst was absolute fun and worked right. Same goes for shotguns.
The niche roles are supported by a certain weapon, yes, but even in that, it branches out. The AR is a mid-range weapon that supports the Frontline fighter niche. The Breach AR is built more in favor for closer range frontline offensive.
You can have deviations of a weapon to continue to support any niche, no matter how specific or general. |
ladwar
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
451
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 05:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
if it makes sense add it if it doesn't don't. don't take away ones you added that make sense that just wasteful and annoying. |
Pseudogenesis
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 05:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
ladwar wrote: Burst Mass Driver-I don't understand how this will work and have balance.
It wouldn't. I mean, you COULD balance it, but the point of burst weapons is to provide a medium between accurate fire and damage per second. Mass Drivers don't suffer from recoil and they don't have to be pinpoint accurate, rendering a burst mode unnecessary. I agree with OP though. |
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Rusty Shallows
Black Jackals
80
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 05:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Cass Barr wrote:Talos Alomar wrote:I'd rather have more weapons than more weapon variants. This So Burst Mass Driver is no go? And so children on May 22 of 2013 Bojo single highhandedly solved the Mass Driver User's crisis. Later spawning a thousand OP Threads but that is another story.
I want one, really, REALLY want one. The current nerf foam dart shooters offer no satisfaction for the medic alt. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
368
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 06:59:00 -
[22] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Negris Albedo wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote: If it's a niche, it should take a heavier investement to widen your options.
Yeah that's what Level 2 and Level 4 are for: Unlocking the niche weapons (same with proficiency) But it doesn't make sense that Level unlocks less variants, it was perfectly fine in chromosome. Also, this causes a problem: Niche do not have cheaper counterparts, now if you want to actively play your role, you have to shell out unnecessary ISK for a level higher than you may want. Niche Weapons are not OP but why ze nerf?! I don't think you're understanding the concept of a niche. Since when does niche mean expensive? Such talk is asinine nonsense. If everybody had easy access to it, it wouldn't be a niche. Niche 101
Incorrect. Everybody has access to it. It's a niche because it has a specific non-generic/non-utility purpose. Meaning not everyone will/can use it.
No reason for it to be more expensive SP/ISK-wise.
Again, "asinine nonsense".
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Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
487
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 09:18:00 -
[23] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:
If everybody had easy access to it, it wouldn't be a niche. Niche 101
WTF? NicheI'm thinking you don't understand the concept of niche
I'm thinking you don't understand the concept of metaphor. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
487
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 09:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:
Incorrect. Everybody has access to it. It's a niche because it has a specific non-generic/non-utility purpose. Meaning not everyone will/can use it.
No reason for it to be more expensive SP/ISK-wise.
Again, "asinine nonsense".
Strawman argument. Try again. |
J-Lewis
Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 10:39:00 -
[25] - Quote
I especially like how a lot of weapons don't actually stick to the "sidegrades at adv, exotic at pro".
All they did was remove sidegrades from standard, which is a pretty big mistake IMO.
Also, define "exotic". It implies weapon variants that are so modified that they are altogether different from the base weapon: like an SMG or pistol turned carbine. Things better suited for a customization mechanic. There isn't a gun that shoots shurikens and lightning. |
Pseudogenesis
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 13:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:
Incorrect. Everybody has access to it. It's a niche because it has a specific non-generic/non-utility purpose. Meaning not everyone will/can use it.
No reason for it to be more expensive SP/ISK-wise.
Again, "asinine nonsense".
Strawman argument. Try again.
pfffft ahahahah
Now you're just embarrassing yourself |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1167
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 14:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:
Incorrect. Everybody has access to it. It's a niche because it has a specific non-generic/non-utility purpose. Meaning not everyone will/can use it.
No reason for it to be more expensive SP/ISK-wise.
Again, "asinine nonsense".
Strawman argument. Try again. First of all, you quoted that wrong. Debate fail.
Secondly, would you be so kind as to elaborate on why a weapon that supports a further specialized role aka Niche Weapon, has to be an ISK sink?
You can't really figure out on paper what weapon & variant suits your specialized role (I'm just going to keep using specialized role so no one ends up confused) you have to use the weapon. Well as it is, if you have SP in the sniper, and want more damage, you have skill all the way up to charge which is now at proto level, only to find that it's like a forge gun. That was a big waste of SP, because on paper, the gun isn't what it seems.
Provide a valid point on why it must be an SP sink? Niche and specialized roles don't have anything to do with expenses. If I want to try Ice Cream, I don't have to start at Vanilla and work my way up. I can buy whatever flavor I want at any given moment. I don't need to get advanced Ice cream to taste sherbert, but why do I need advanced shotguns to get specialist? |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
490
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 15:51:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:
Incorrect. Everybody has access to it. It's a niche because it has a specific non-generic/non-utility purpose. Meaning not everyone will/can use it.
No reason for it to be more expensive SP/ISK-wise.
Again, "asinine nonsense".
Strawman argument. Try again. First of all, you quoted that wrong. Debate fail. Secondly, would you be so kind as to elaborate on why a weapon that supports a further specialized role aka Niche Weapon, has to be an ISK sink? You can't really figure out on paper what weapon & variant suits your specialized role (I'm just going to keep using specialized role so no one ends up confused) you have to use the weapon. Well as it is, if you have SP in the sniper, and want more damage, you have skill all the way up to charge which is now at proto level, only to find that it's like a forge gun. That was a big waste of SP, because on paper, the gun isn't what it seems. Provide a valid point on why it must be an SP sink? Niche and specialized roles don't have anything to do with expenses. If I want to try Ice Cream, I don't have to start at Vanilla and work my way up. I can buy whatever flavor I want at any given moment. I don't need to get advanced Ice cream to taste sherbert, but why do I need advanced shotguns to get specialist?
You're arguments are no longer coherent. There is no point continuing this.
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Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1167
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 19:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:
You're arguments are no longer coherent. There is no point continuing this.
Part 1 is true, part 2 is not.
The fact of the matter is that removing weapon variants and making gaps between meta levels of gaining access to said variants is detrimental to the specialization game. Some specializations now require less SP than others to gain access to their niche weapon. That is unfair, foolish, and simplifying. It is a step towards a one-class order of things and is making the game less fun.
There is no reason to make SP sinks for a specialization. Shields last build used to be more expensive to Specialize into, but when compared to armor, there was no reason for a larger sink.
On top of this you have yet to provide a valid point as to why removing variants is good, why SP sink is good, and why niche have to be expensive. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
491
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 20:41:00 -
[30] - Quote
Missing the point of specialisation once again. |
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Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1167
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 20:48:00 -
[31] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Missing the point of specialisation once again. Specializing is supposed to be easier than a master of all trades but this goes against that. CCP stated in the demo that the skill system is supposed to promote specialization because it is the path of least resistance. Specialization is the dedication to a certain role, but some people want, no require, a weapon variant to fulfill their role. That is me, I need my Burst rifle back but apparently it was swiped off the earth. What weapon can replace it? None
Quit being Mr. Recluse and let your cards hit the table. You state that you are some omniscient debater but no argument for removing weapon variations has been made from you let alone you have yet to define your definition of specialization. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1170
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 03:13:00 -
[32] - Quote
Ok I found out Burst Rifle was not removed but was moved up to be exotic or some crap like that. I glanced over it, bad eyes. |
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