DUST Search - The fundamental problem with Dust...

Ivan Avogadro wrote:

I am really wary of any verbal communication abilities.

1) If my squad can listen to enemy comms, will it be on our squad chat? How will I even know who is talking. If someone says "aaah a tank!" is that a blue tank or a red tank?

2) Do I have to switch to a new channel to listen in? That's cumbersome. If I hear something useful how fast will I be able to relay that info back to team? If I hear "push Bravo now!" and 30 reds charge bravo, will I have time to rally a blue defense?

3) How useful is this skill that will cost SP to train? What if I take the time to hack into comms and all I got was racist blathering? Again, is this on my comm or is it on a new channel in case I want to turn it off?

4) What if someone was talking to a real life buddy about bullshit (or non-bullshit) stuff while playing a friendly game to unwind after work? Using real names, real places. Real problems and concerns. Nobody should be able to just HACK into my conversation like that.

5) Tryhard groups will just use Skype on their iPads or laptaps ANYWAY and be immune. Only casuals will fall for this.


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Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1398	Posted - 2013.05.19 14:59:00 - [1] - Quote The fundamental problem with DUST is that most roles and a good percentage of the equipment are solutions to challenges that don't exist in the game. The role of Scout is the solution to the challenge of sneaking through enemy lines to obtain intel, disrupt enemy communications, blow up key assets, etc. The role of pilot is the solution to the challenge of troop transport over difficult terrain, lightning fast attacks on remote assets, feints to draw off enemy forces from key objectives, etc. The only challenge that the current game modes supply is to kill the enemy team. You clone out the enemy team to win Ambush. You kill to clone out in Skirmish and you kill to take objectives. You take districts by cloning out the defender. The only solution needed is "Shoot the other guy in the face before he shoots you in the face". The answer to every problem is "more firepower". The result is that only viable class is the Slayer and every other class gets measured by the yardstick made for that class, KDR. Every other class gets perverted into the slayer class. Every asset is turned into a weapon. Scouts are used on the front line to sprint and shoot the enemy in the face with a shotgun and LAVs are used to turn the enemy into road kill. Logistics suits are turned into Assault suits and dropships are used to crush mercs. People protest that dropships and LAV's were designed for transport, but when the only challenge is killing they literally become vehicles for homicide. People recognize the symptom, but not the cause. CCP gives us one simple challenge, so players use every tool to try to solve that one problem. The issue has been masked a great deal so far because winning doesn't matter in Instant Battles. Individual players can be ineffective because winning doesn't matter. That changes in PC where every clone counts. If you don't bring high-DPS you aren't invited. That comes down to calculating how much outgoing DPS a Logi saves vs. the amount he removes from the team. One of the core values of New Eden is using existing assets to creatively solve challenges, yet CCP seems bent on limiting the challenges to one and restricting the ways we can solve that one. For example Dropships were coated in explosive paint to prevent pilots from using them to crush mercs and a hard flight ceiling was imposed to prevent snipers from camping roof tops. Instead of limiting play CCP needs to add additional challenges that make the other roles viable. They can add WP rewards for flying all they want, but without a real in game challenge that requires a dropship it won't be used in a match where it matters. When people imagine the Scout role and how cloaking might work they create scenarios in their heads about sneaking into the enemy camp and performing some form of espionage or destruction. Yet in the current game mode there will be no enemy camp to infiltrate. Everyone will be at the front in one big blob shooting each other in the face. When I first heard about DUST I was intrigued by the RTS aspects of large complex battles. A commander in the MCC would direct the larger groups to take certain objectives or make feints, and squad leaders would determine the best way to accomplish that given the assets and skills at hand. That is the sort of play that requires the many roles that currently exist. What we currently have does not. CCP needs to add game modes that increase the number of challenges beyond efficiency in killing if any role other than Slayer is to be viable.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1411	Posted - 2013.05.19 16:23:00 - [2] - Quote J'Hiera wrote: Mike Poole wrote: The role of a Heavy HMG user is to control confined close quarter areas with choke points where long range weapons lose their advantage... and it's decent at that if you happen to be on the rare map with an indoor area and your team happens to control that single room... There are choke points? I havent seen any map with one. Choke points only matter if there is a reason to go through them. What game mode requires that? Why try to break through when you can just mow the enemy team down and clone them out much easier?
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1412	Posted - 2013.05.19 16:31:00 - [3] - Quote Salient0ne wrote: I agree with the OP to a certain extent, the last thing i want in dust however is a bunch of boring yet necessary tasks to complete. "Scout, go hide behind that rock and turn on your scanner, for the ENTIRE match". bleh. Its like wormholes in eve, cool idea, major pain in the ass to work with. What we need to do is just REMOVE all the stuff in this game that was put in here for different 'roles' that dont exist, and just make many different tiers of 'Slayer'. Shoot in face == fun. Scanning for wormholes == rather play tetris... or pong. Your point is extremely important. Any role must be personally challenging for the player executing it. Challenge is what makes a game fun, and if you don't supply it nobody will want to play that role. In your example the Scout could be replaced with an automated scanner. Air drop it and leave. What we need is, "Scout, identify the location of an enemy TacNet relay and insert this virus so we can listen in on their communications." or "Scout, get behind enemy lines and destroy the Shield Generator guarding the installation". As it is everything a Scout can do can be undone by the enemy at his leisure. The Scout hacks a Null Cannon behind the lines and the enemy just strolls over, kills him, and rehacks it. There is no use for stealth. If you want the cannon you have to take it by force.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1414	Posted - 2013.05.19 16:45:00 - [4] - Quote Rusty Shaklefurd wrote: Just remember that eve didn't start with Titans, Destroyers, Command Ships, Player owned stations, Alliances, Worm holes...etc. It was a progression over a long period of time. The fundamental problem isn't Dust... Its us. Our expectations of having a fully integrated complex FPS/RTS are unrealistic. CCP is developing something that is going to be absolutely unreal... in real time... in front of our eyes. Enjoy the journey. I dont work for CCP but playing eve since 2004 I can tell you... Different maps are coming... different modes are coming... a bigger market is coming... Player creation and skill building will be more complex... Dust is going to progress. Stability is key. Once the game is stable and has a lot of the bugs worked out content will come. So in short... QQ or GTFO Your insight is helpful, but your attitude is not. We a having a discussion about the fundamental issues of the game, not crying. I am trying to connect many of the disparate complaints to a single underlying cause so people can better understand them and better address the issues. This needs to be discussed and this is the appropriate forum for that discussion. The better analogy is if you had all the skills for Titans, Destroyers, and PoS, but no use for them. If you allow or even encourage someone to skill into a role that has no use you just set them up for failure and frustration. At the very least there should be a warning to all new players that they should concentrate on obtaining high-DPS and avoid all the interesting but useless skills and equipment for a year or two until they become useful.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1415	Posted - 2013.05.19 16:49:00 - [5] - Quote Ivan Avogadro wrote: I am really wary of any verbal communication abilities. 1) If my squad can listen to enemy comms, will it be on our squad chat? How will I even know who is talking. If someone says "aaah a tank!" is that a blue tank or a red tank? 2) Do I have to switch to a new channel to listen in? That's cumbersome. If I hear something useful how fast will I be able to relay that info back to team? If I hear "push Bravo now!" and 30 reds charge bravo, will I have time to rally a blue defense? 3) How useful is this skill that will cost SP to train? What if I take the time to hack into comms and all I got was racist blathering? Again, is this on my comm or is it on a new channel in case I want to turn it off? 4) What if someone was talking to a real life buddy about bullshit (or non-bullshit) stuff while playing a friendly game to unwind after work? Using real names, real places. Real problems and concerns. Nobody should be able to just HACK into my conversation like that. 5) Tryhard groups will just use Skype on their iPads or laptaps ANYWAY and be immune. Only casuals will fall for this. That was just an example, and perhaps verbal communication interception is a non-workable idea. You could still use the mechanism to gain an advantage by explaining it as intercepting automated communication about what assets are being deployed and when by an RDV or some other benefit.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1416	Posted - 2013.05.19 17:37:00 - [6] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: But also its more restricted by the size of the maps The maps are small and the objectives are close to each other Until maps and districts are alot larger and objectives spread over the entire place then the need for scouts and vehicles are limited, all you need is assault/logi and the odd heavy It's not just the size of the maps, though that definitely is a part of it. It's also the type of terrain, how that space is used, and how people spawn. But CCP could do much more with the map size we currently have by altering the winning requirements as Helper Friendly points out just above. What everyone needs to understand is that a huge percentage of our problems stem from this one simple fact: Killing = Wining. That's why everyone is fighting for their particular gun to be the best and why they want to nerf anything they don't use. There are no alternatives to high gank because gank is the only thing that wins matches. Trading off high damage on a suit for more versatility is trading off a win for a loss. It shouldn't be this way. CCP may plan on changing that, but they haven't acknowledged that the lack of depth in game play is at the heart of so much dissatisfaction with the game. It would be great if they would come out and admit it and present some broad roadmap that would let the players know when their particular favorite play style might become important to the game. That would save us from becoming dedicated pilots too early in the timeline to be useful and becoming frustrated at the lack of opportunities to be effective.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1416	Posted - 2013.05.19 17:40:00 - [7] - Quote Rusty Shaklefurd wrote: Your insight is helpful, but your attitude is not. We a having a discussion about the fundamental issues of the game, not crying. I am trying to connect many of the disparate complaints to a single underlying cause so people can better understand them and better address the issues. This needs to be discussed and this is the appropriate forum for that discussion. The better analogy is if you had all the skills for Titans, Destroyers, and PoS, but no use for them. If you allow or even encourage someone to skill into a role that has no use you just set them up for failure and frustration. At the very least there should be a warning to all new players that they should concentrate on obtaining high-DPS and avoid all the interesting but useless skills and equipment for a year or two until they become useful. [/quote] The point I am making is that if you think the CCP Dev's are sitting around a table going "OMG whats wrong" I think you are mistaken. This is probably the 400th thread about "Whats wrong with Dust" Take comfort in the fact that they will continue to work on the game and not just let it die... [/quote] Yes, I'm hoping that the developers know all this. However the new player is not and they are going to suffer if they spend all their SP on a non-high-DPS role.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1421	Posted - 2013.05.19 18:40:00 - [8] - Quote Rusty Shaklefurd wrote: I understand what your saying completely... I disagree with the message to the new player. I am a lower SP player (2mill)... I find myself middle to top of the boards in war points by using an AV/Support character. I keep my DPS team mates running the best i can without running past the front line. For me survivability is most important. Skill points in armour and shield buffs. To bastardize a line from Game of Thrones... "The Nerf is coming..." Just don't over extend yourself is the best advice I can give... because the game is going to change a lot. Perhaps it should be more targeted. I agree that logis can get quite a few WP's and are usually welcome in PC battles as well. However even there the more efficient teams may eschew the Logi in favor of another AR. An Assault squad of six would have six equipment slots between them and wouldn't be reliant upon a dedicated Logi who can't hold his own at the front while adding his DPS to the battle. There should certainly be a warning to prospective pilots not to dump all their SP into dropships until they become viable.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1422	Posted - 2013.05.19 19:52:00 - [9] - Quote Glockus Touchus wrote: I tend to agree, I have noticed since the beta that this is strictly a gear game. Skill, strategy, sure a little, about as much as you see in an CoD type game. It's who has the best gear slotted (DPS value) and the ability to use it will come out on top. I have two accounts a Logi, I love playing but probably offer very little in anything outside an Pub Match, and an assault one. I can run around like crazy with the assault one if I want but that's what twitcher games are for. I will hang around to see how CCP gets this going with roles that actually provide value to a core team/squad. In a game like this players will find what ever exploit they can in order to get an edge. There is nothing wrong with it, just makes for a fairly boring game with little longevity. I think I know where you are coming from. I had my fill of twitch shooters with CoD and I was hoping that DUST would let me be a vital member in some other role that also required player skill such as pilot. Unfortunately the only role needed right now is the twitch shooter. I'm not only sticking around, I'm advocating for that "something more". I really hope there is an internal roadmap to make the other classes both vital and fun to play (i.e. no "sit here and scan the whole match or follow me and drop ammo when I tell you to"). If there is, I'd love for CCP to mention it in however broad strokes they want to prevent us from expecting it tomorrow. I just want everyone to be aware of the approximate timeframe for the viability of the various roles in both Instant Battles and at the highest level of competition in PC.