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BursegSardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
153
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 16:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
Keep Precision strikes working as they are now, but in FW Battles and Corp battles, put the EVE bombardments on a timer ~4 minutes or so.
Reasons: 1) A lot of bitter EVE players seriously don't give a **** about Dust. Even a handful of my own EVE people. Even more are just indifferent. This will give them more of a feeling that they matter, instead of taking the place of some NPC invisible war barge.
2) From the Dust end it further strengthens the value of having EVE connections, because you'll have a whole new class of bombardments to call in, and even if you are getting WTFpwned you'll have a chance to lash back from orbit.
3) It will also increase conflict over districts because of this value.
4) While chat is nice, and the corporation structure is really awesome, the connection between the two games is still rather limited. Increasing the importance of this existing bond would demonstrate the direction the two games are headed. And instead of some intangible, far-off concept of carrying mercs to battle, or boarding Titans, this can be far more easily implemented. |
Dusters Blog
Galactic News Network
338
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 16:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
+1 to this. Cooldowns are better.
we wrote about it here http://tinyurl.com/d6fjcsz |
xLTShinySidesx
UNOBTANIUM INC General Tso's Alliance
362
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 17:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
This needs to happen... It gives a relevancy to having eve side support...
Right now dust players aren't worried about how much eve side support another alliance has and that's just wrong, the eve support factor should play a huge role in this game and should even be so powerful of a support tool that corps/alliances should be thinking twice before attacking an eve heavy alliance.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
4732
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Posted - 2013.05.16 17:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
The answer for this is not now. Later. |
xLTShinySidesx
UNOBTANIUM INC General Tso's Alliance
362
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 17:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:The answer for this is not now. Later.
So there is a plan in the works then?
Thanks for the reply. |
BursegSardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
153
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 18:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:The answer for this is not now. Later.
So you're telling me there's a chance.... |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
4732
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Posted - 2013.05.16 18:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
There needs to be quite a few problems and questions to be answered first such as shooting down eve players. |
Zero Avis
D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION
6
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Posted - 2013.05.16 18:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:There needs to be quite a few problems and questions to be answered first such as shooting down eve players.
The tears to follow would be amazing Lol. will be great |
BursegSardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
153
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 18:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:There needs to be quite a few problems and questions to be answered first such as shooting down eve players.
In all fairness, wouldn't it encourage Dust corps to interact with EVE corps in the interim? The benefit of the bombardment comes from having EVE relations, shouldn't the counter for the bombardments also be EVE relations? Since the only way to remove EVE pilots from above the district is with other EVE pilots, I would think this creates the desire for Dust corps to look to the skies for aid, at least for the time being. I honestly feel this decoupling from the WP system would be a greater benefit the sooner it is implemented. I'm not sure how far along skyfire battery concepts are, of course, so I might be speaking out of turn, but I'd assume creating a Dust-side timer to call in OB's from space would be a lot simpler and would definitely go a long way towards bolstering relations between the two games.
Now, all that said, I love the idea of blowing multi-million ISK ships out of the sky as well, but I know my EVE buddies that despise Dust will be even less likely to help our guys on the ground if there is potential of getting ganked by "twelve-year-olds on a console" (their words, not mine) for no tangible reward... so perhaps there should even be a kill-cam implemented for the EVE pilots before the skyfires. Or mails. Anything besides a small scroll and some white flashes on a textured sphere... |
xLTShinySidesx
UNOBTANIUM INC General Tso's Alliance
362
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 19:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm in agreement with, Burseg here... Why would dust bunnies be shooting eve ships down? This is a job for other eve ships, I go back to my previous argument, relevancy of having eve side support, implementing timer based OB's incentivize eve side support but making dust players able to take them out takes that relevancy away again... If dusties wanna take down eve ships so they don't get OB'd every X minutes than they need to get an eve ship in orbit to stop it.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
4732
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Posted - 2013.05.16 19:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Because sometimes, space reinforcements are not available. Blockaids or logistics problems make sit impossible to park in orbit to save your posteriors from non stop bombardment. |
xLTShinySidesx
UNOBTANIUM INC General Tso's Alliance
362
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 19:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Because sometimes, space reinforcements are not available. Blockaids or logistics problems make sit impossible to park in orbit to save your posteriors from non stop bombardment.
I don't know much about eve so the following question is not sarcasm, it's a legit question.
Are the issues you named, planning issues? Or in game known issues?
If they are planning issues where corp A didn't expect corp B would be bombarding them all battle and didn't get a ship in orbit before the battle started, then I believe that's on them and they should be getting bombarded all game, this is a tactical fps where planning and thinking take place and are paramount.
If its in game issues then I understand why it would be necessary. |
BursegSardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
153
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 20:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
xLTShinySidesx wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Because sometimes, space reinforcements are not available. Blockaids or logistics problems make sit impossible to park in orbit to save your posteriors from non stop bombardment. I don't know much about eve so the following question is not sarcasm, it's a legit question. Are the issues you named, planning issues? Or in game known issues? If they are planning issues where corp A didn't expect corp B would be bombarding them all battle and didn't get a ship in orbit before the battle started, then I believe that's on them and they should be getting bombarded all game, this is a tactical fps where planning and thinking take place and are paramount. If its in game issues then I understand why it would be necessary.
The issue Iron Wolf means is: what if an entire system is blocked off by a super-huge EVE corp and won't allow the other team to bring spaceships in to fight in orbit. Which is a valid concern, I agree, and a very good point on the side of implementing skyfire batteries, which I also support. But I also think if that is going to happen, no amount of skyfire batteries are doing to make a difference if the gates are camped... unless those gates are on the same district grid. But that brings me to my next point:
I'm not sure how the skyfire batteries are going to work, but currently you only see ships that are connected to the district from the Dust end. If there is a potential threat of dying, couldn't the EVE player just not connect to the district until the last second? Are the skyfires supposed to be defense against bombardment and thus ONLY able to shoot connected ships, or are they meant as an equalizer against ANY ships on grid with the planet? Or any ships in the system?
I just feel that these issues are going to take a long time to sit down, discuss, hammer out, and I'm glad its in the hands of the CPM to work this stuff out with CCP, but back to my point at hand: the DIRECT interaction of Dust and EVE is very lackluster in implementation, for both sides. Yea the bombardments are "cool" when you do them, and they are more powerful on the surface, but in essence they aren't much of a game-changer as they are flair.
Tying the bombardments to a timer can serve as a great block to non-stop bombardments. If necessary, tie the timer to command points NOT captured. The less points held by the team, the faster the countdown, that way the EVE force in orbit can make a difference for the loser, while not adding to the suffering of a red-lined team. |
Taurion Bruni
Nightingale Logistics Pty Ltd
24
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Posted - 2013.05.16 20:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
I think that there needs to be an objective that the team needs to hold in space before a planet can be bombarded, possible a , this can help to create a 2 level war, on on the ground, and one in space and with a similar method on the ground to shoot up into space, this sounds like a level and balanced playing ground |
Rhorian Darkstar
Dark Force Katana General Tso's Alliance
43
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Posted - 2013.05.16 21:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
BursegSardaukar wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:There needs to be quite a few problems and questions to be answered first such as shooting down eve players. In all fairness, wouldn't it encourage Dust corps to interact with EVE corps in the interim? The benefit of the bombardment comes from having EVE relations, shouldn't the counter for the bombardments also be EVE relations? Since the only way to remove EVE pilots from above the district is with other EVE pilots, I would think this creates the desire for Dust corps to look to the skies for aid, at least for the time being. I honestly feel this decoupling from the WP system would be a greater benefit the sooner it is implemented. I'm not sure how far along skyfire battery concepts are, of course, so I might be speaking out of turn, but I'd assume creating a Dust-side timer to call in OB's from space would be a lot simpler and would definitely go a long way towards bolstering relations between the two games. Now, all that said, I love the idea of blowing multi-million ISK ships out of the sky as well, but I know my EVE buddies that despise Dust will be even less likely to help our guys on the ground if there is potential of getting ganked by "twelve-year-olds on a console" (their words, not mine) for no tangible reward... so perhaps there should even be a kill-cam implemented for the EVE pilots before the skyfires. Or mails. Anything besides a small scroll and some white flashes on a textured sphere...
why not make were eve pilots earn something for there support, to make more appealing to eve side player istead of a lose/lose for them.
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Zero Avis
D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION
6
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Posted - 2013.05.16 23:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
Rhorian Darkstar wrote: why not make were eve pilots earn something for there support, to make more appealing to eve side player istead of a lose/lose for them.
They would earn what ever they get for winning the district |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
1026
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Posted - 2013.05.17 06:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
There was actually a pretty good discussion at fanfest about stealing the Eve universe tournament's format.
Nothing official, of course... but we were spitballing the idea that instead of (Or additional to) WP related strikes.... One could earn strikes simply by having uncontested control of the satellite in Eve. Basically, your guys in space earn a strike just by being there with no one to stop them. (Or for winning a fight if someone tries)
For those who aren't acquainted with how the tournament worked :
An individual or group orbits the satellite within a short distance. For as long as no enemy forces were within that short range of the satellite... A timer began to tick up. Once it became full, an orbital strike was available for the ground forces to call in. For the tournament, this timer was something short (30s) in practical battle situations it could be a bit longer... But it's a way for eve players to actually make a difference on the battle without having to rely entirely on their dudes to earn enough points.
There's some tech hurdles to solve there... but the discussion was pretty cool. I'd be sad if they didn't add it. Like Ironwolf said though... One of those hurdles is having the planets being able to shoot back somehow. |
jenza aranda
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1679
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 06:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
from fighting in the tourney, the whole 1 ob a min was kinda crazy, it would probably have to be rolled back a little but it was still really quite fun. I do think at least the satellite should be like the beacon in the tourney, having the eve guys see the progress of the match was really good. |
Rugman91
Deep Space Republic Gentlemen's Agreement
172
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 08:44:00 -
[19] - Quote
I also support this. It should be a cool down. Current system reminds one of cod too much. It just doesnt make much sense to me that when your stomping you get the means to stomp harder |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French CRONOS.
1469
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 08:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
Overall, i'm really liking the idea of having OBs or PSs not linked to WP requirements. But, i'm not sure if having it EVE based only through a timer would be such a good idea. Remember what CCP always says : Both games interact but they need to remain independant. At least for now.
So, OB\PS mecanics should be a Dust side thing. But, that doesnt mean you can't think of various solutions :
Cooldown is actually a decent option. But tough to figure out as it would need to have a constant number of SL in game so you would now which timeframe is ok for this.
Let me explain. You can have games with only 1 squad and the rest in the general pool of unassigned players. With this scenario, you could give an OB to the SL every 5 minutes. Would end with 3/4 OBs in most games.
Now, take a game with 3 squads (6/6/4), if you keep that same timeframe, you will reach 9/12 OBs in a 15/20 minutes game for one team. It's now a bit too much and would probably require a higher delay between strikes.
Finally, Dust allows to have more squads but filled with less players. Say 5 squads of 3 players. There, you'd reach 15/20 Obs.
See where i'm getting at there ? So, having OBs based on a timer would probably require something being done on the squad mecanics. Like having a maximum set number of squads and no longer randoms being left out unassigned so both teams always have the same amount of SL and thus OB\PS. Would also allow even random dudes being SL (randomized choice) once in a while, using OB and it could be a plus for New Players.
But there could be downsides : Selected SL AFKing MCCs, SL hiding not afk but just to use their OBs and play it safe. and probably other stuff that dont comes to mind yet.
The other option is to add an in-game item that would be needed to use to get an OB. I remember (i think it was praetorian in Cast 514) hearing talks about Dust 514 beacon that players would need to carry to a specific area to pinpoint the strike.
I also like the idea of linking OB\PS to a specific action that would require team efforts instead of an addition of WPs. WOuld add another layer to the game.
I dont know, you could imagine a scrambling facility that would jam War BArge or Ships firing system. The team owning it would make it possible for its asset to fire. Then it would reset (acting as a kind of timer) before it's hackable again. Etc..
Like a secondary objective. |
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EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
1126
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 10:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Its a bad idea
Just means if a team is getting smashed out of the ground they get an OB for doing nothing towards it and basically its a free strike even tho the entire team is bad and cannot save up a lolworthy 2500WP which is **** easy to obtain |
BursegSardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
153
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 14:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
Wow, thanks for all the replies, CPM members. Your feedback has brought a lot of thoughts to mind.
I actually hadn't looked into the fanfest tournament, but that sounds absolutely incredible! Well, provided the distance from the beacon is within scram/web range ;). Don't want my ownership of the beacon with 20 battleships contested by a single loki-boosted Dramiel orbiting at 50km, after all. But that frequency sounds insane, dialling back to about 3-4 minutes would not be too unreasonable.
I can understand Laurent's concern with switching over to a timer-based system with regards to all precision strikes, but I was more focusing on PC (specifically) and perhaps even FW battles and having EVE Tactical Starship Strikes be a separate thing entirely. While AFK'ing in the MCC would be problematic when trying to figure out how to delegate the OB, I think the best bet would be to make it available to all the squad commanders at once. While this would lead to a mad dash for the SL's in the public FW battles to get to the trigger, it would work out well in the PC battles.
Again, thanks for your feedback, its good to know this is a concern that is being looked into! |
Yosef Autaal
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
89
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 16:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:Overall, i'm really liking the idea of having OBs or PSs not linked to WP requirements. But, i'm not sure if having it EVE based only through a timer would be such a good idea. Remember what CCP always says : Both games interact but they need to remain independant. At least for now. So, OB\PS mecanics should be a Dust side thing. But, that doesnt mean you can't think of various solutions : Cooldown is actually a decent option. But tough to figure out as it would need to have a constant number of SL in game so you would now which timeframe is ok for this. Let me explain. You can have games with only 1 squad and the rest in the general pool of unassigned players. With this scenario, you could give an OB to the SL every 5 minutes. Would end with 3/4 OBs in most games. Now, take a game with 3 squads (6/6/4), if you keep that same timeframe, you will reach 9/12 OBs in a 15/20 minutes game for one team. It's now a bit too much and would probably require a higher delay between strikes. Finally, Dust allows to have more squads but filled with less players. Say 5 squads of 3 players. There, you'd reach 15/20 Obs. See where i'm getting at there ? So, having OBs based on a timer would probably require something being done on the squad mecanics. Like having a maximum set number of squads and no longer randoms being left out unassigned so both teams always have the same amount of SL and thus OB\PS. Would also allow even random dudes being SL (randomized choice) once in a while, using OB and it could be a plus for New Players. But there could be downsides : Selected SL AFKing MCCs, SL hiding not afk but just to use their OBs and play it safe. and probably other stuff that dont comes to mind yet. The other option is to add an in-game item that would be needed to use to get an OB. I remember (i think it was praetorian in Cast 514) hearing talks about Dust 514 beacon that players would need to carry to a specific area to pinpoint the strike. I also like the idea of linking OB\PS to a specific action that would require team efforts instead of an addition of WPs. WOuld add another layer to the game. I dont know, you could imagine a scrambling facility that would jam War BArge or Ships firing system. The team owning it would make it possible for its asset to fire. Then it would reset (acting as a kind of timer) before it's hackable again. Etc.. Like a secondary objective.
Well one way to stop a huge number of obs based on timer is that its a team wide timer not squad, so the every 3/5 mins the teams gets OB and once any SL calls it in it is then gone and have to wait the timer again.
This would obvs only work in PC where teams orginised and not likely to have 16 indiviudals all in there own squad fighting over OB usage (also opens up espionage as a spy can be SL and steal the OB and use it on blue rather then red)
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xLTShinySidesx
UNOBTANIUM INC General Tso's Alliance
362
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 18:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
Make the timer corp based or alliance based maybe?
IMO the standard OB's should still be WP based but the eve side OB's should have a timer, could this timer be attached by corp, say the timer for your squad is up.. Only you can call it in because your corp is the one who has the ship in orbit.
Mcc camping to get orbitals may happen but it would only happen in FW, if people tried doing that in PC they'd lose their district very fast.
This does open the door for 16 individual squads in a PC battle waiting on timers but again, if you made it corp based or even better, alliance based, it would mitigate the issue.
Not sure if that would be possible though, sounds like allot of work lol. |
BursegSardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
153
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 18:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
xLTShinySidesx wrote:Make the timer corp based or alliance based maybe?
IMO the standard OB's should still be WP based but the eve side OB's should have a timer, could this timer be attached by corp, say the timer for your squad is up.. Only you can call it in because your corp is the one who has the ship in orbit.
Mcc camping to get orbitals may happen but it would only happen in FW, if people tried doing that in PC they'd lose their district very fast.
This does open the door for 16 individual squads in a PC battle waiting on timers but again, if you made it corp based or even better, alliance based, it would mitigate the issue.
Not sure if that would be possible though, sounds like allot of work lol.
Just make it team-based and you are good. In the corp battles it'd be laid out ahead of time which squad leader should be calling in the thing, preferably the guy also on comms with the fleet in orbit to let them know to be ready: "Where's that God damned airstrike?" - Me on the ground "Change of plans, Burseg... help isn't coming... ever." - Me in space betraying myself...... O M G. Burseg's words coming out of mouth... |
Cynabi
D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 19:23:00 -
[26] - Quote
Nova Knife wrote:There was actually a pretty good discussion at fanfest about stealing the Eve universe tournament's format.
Nothing official, of course... but we were spitballing the idea that instead of (Or additional to) WP related strikes.... One could earn strikes simply by having uncontested control of the satellite in Eve. Basically, your guys in space earn a strike just by being there with no one to stop them. (Or for winning a fight if someone tries)
For those who aren't acquainted with how the tournament worked :
An individual or group orbits the satellite within a short distance. For as long as no enemy forces were within that short range of the satellite... A timer began to tick up.
I think a district based cool-down provides an answer to most of the problems brought up in this thread. If you have to stay within' range of the satalites for 6m or something, you can get a fairly constant stream of bombardment from EVE going, and make EVE support for FW or PC a lucrative option for EVE players.
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Gilbatron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
93
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 22:25:00 -
[27] - Quote
with the current implementation on extremely small maps ? nope
with future dust gameplay featuring multiple paralell battles on multiple maps in the same district, at the same time ? yes |
slypie11
Planetary Response Organisation
310
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:50:00 -
[28] - Quote
I'm good with the satellite thing, as long as it only effects PC. Keep the WP system in random matches. |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
1026
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 19:02:00 -
[29] - Quote
I should clarify a bit.
In the tournament, the strikes were available to any squad leader in the game, but once one of them used it, it was gone and the timer would start ticking up from 0 again.
"Capture range" of the satellite was 10km
WP strikes were also available to both teams still.
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Dusters Blog
Galactic News Network
338
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 09:13:00 -
[30] - Quote
its always been our contention that EVE players shouldnt be sitting for long periods of time waiting for Dust players to collect strikes and that there must be a tangible link for the two games. the relationship between orbital weaponry and strikes from EVE ships is it. cooldowns are the preference but the important thing to keep in mind is that EVE ships need more abilities than simply laser strikes. |
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