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Justin Aim
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.06.18 21:00:00 -
[31] - Quote
As long as the counter-hack gets something I'm fine. It does make sense for it to be equal like you say.
What if the Null Canon kept firing but the targeting system went offline? Random Null canon missiles all around :^) |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
478
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Posted - 2013.06.18 21:00:00 -
[32] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:It should be noted that while a Null cannon is being hacked it is still shooting at an MCC. So if you wait for the other teamGÇÖs hack to go through so you can get 100 WP to hack it back, then the whole time it is being hacked back it is shooting at your MCC. By counter hacking, you prevent it from shooting at your MCC. In a close match those few Null cannon shots can be the difference between winning and losing.
It should also be noted that counter hacking takes longer, and you only have a limited time to do it. If you have to take time to clear the Reds out before you start counter hacking, then you often do not have time to complete a counter hack. I would say, given that it takes longer (thus is more dangerous) and is only available for a limited time, I think a larger reward than a normal hack would be appropriate.
This^
This alone warrants points for counter-hacking.
If null cannons were shut down WHILE they were under contest, that would be different.... |
Fox Gaden
DUST University Ivy League
489
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Posted - 2013.06.18 22:56:00 -
[33] - Quote
Stalken Pathfinder wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Can anyone give me a good reason why the WP reward for Counter Hacking should be less than the WP for a normal Hack?
This is a serious question, because I canGÇÖt figure out a good reason for it being less, yet a lot of people are suggesting it should be. Well there are a couple different schools of thought but I think the main reason is to ensure that everything stays "balanced". Also the two mechanics are a bit different. When you hack an objective there is a period of time during which the enemy can negate your reward. When you counter-hack it's like hacking a supply depot insofar as you would get the points instantly. Right now the reward system encourages offensive hacking. There is no down-side to hacking an objective regardless of whether or not you are actually going to be able to secure it and hold it. Once rewards are introduced for counter-hacking, there would be a down-side (as there should be up-sides and down-sides to everything) but there could also be situations in which this reward would actually unbalance the game in the opposite direction. In other words, create too much of a potential down-side and discourage offensive hacking. For example: Team 1 hacks objective A from Team 2 five times and each time Team 2 counter-hacks. In the current system, nobody gets any points from the above exchange. Once a reward is implemented, Team 2 would have 5x the number of WP per counter hack. This certainly increases the incentive to defend objectives. But this must be done without creating a negative incentive to hack an objective in the first place. In other words, if the reward for counter hack is 100 WP than Team 1 might give up after two attempts to hack objective A knowing that if they attempt and fail 3 more times the reward that they will have effectively "handed" the enemy will out-weigh the reward their team will get if they successfully hack the objective. If the reward for counter hacks is only 50 WP however, the number of successes required to cover the number of failures is reduced. None of this even takes into account getting assists for hacks or counter-hacks and the additional points those add into the mix. But I am not a numbers guy so perhaps someone who is better with them can delve into this issue a little deeper and perhaps field a more convincing answer. Personally, I am of the opinion that right now the system is unbalanced and a nominal reward for counter--hacking must be introduced in order to create balance. That being said, due to the reasons listed above and others I didn't get into, I also agree that making the reward too high would cause unbalance in the opposite direction. I think the magic number here is 50 WP +/- 25. Thanks you. That was well written. In particular I take your point about receiving the points instantly when succeeding at a counter hack. I had not considered that point.
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Fox Gaden
DUST University Ivy League
489
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Posted - 2013.06.18 23:02:00 -
[34] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:It has to be equal to the number of points you get from waiting and hacking it back... or people are still incentivized to wait it out.
Also... if you start counter hacking it should stop the transition timer so you don't enter into a situation where it aborts your counter hack cause it had finished before you could get it off.
Also (again)... if an objective is contested it shouldn't still be shooting at the MCC. It should do nothing until its back to an active side, one way or another.
Some of the many reasons I don't care to play skirmish/dom in this game. I donGÇÖt think the counter should stop when you initiate a counter hack.
I donGÇÖt think the Null cannon should stop shooting.
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Draco Cerberus
Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy
130
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Posted - 2013.06.18 23:32:00 -
[35] - Quote
+150 Bumping for a bonus 150wp, this is totaly balanced and in line with rewards vs risk as it takes longer to stop a hack than to do a hack. |
Fox Gaden
DUST University Ivy League
491
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Posted - 2013.06.19 00:20:00 -
[36] - Quote
50 WP to hack a CRU/Turret/Supply Depot
Divided by the time it takes to hack a CRU/Turret/Supply Depot
Multiplied by the time it takes to Counter Hack an Objective
Equals the amount of WP we should get for a Counter Hack.
Round it to the nearest multiple of 5.
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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
272
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Posted - 2013.06.19 00:28:00 -
[37] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:50 WP to hack a CRU/Turret/Supply Depot
Divided by the time it takes to hack a CRU/Turret/Supply Depot
Multiplied by the time it takes to Counter Hack an Objective
Equals the amount of WP we should get for a Counter Hack.
Round it to the nearest multiple of 5.
Is this counted at base hacking speed? With how many people hacking? What are their hacking speed? Would it be different for each person?
It should simply be a set number. I suggested 150 because of the risk involved, the time it takes, and the overall team benefit if successful. |
Numot MTG
DUST University Ivy League
14
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Posted - 2013.06.19 03:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Liked and signed, we need this asap. |
Fox Gaden
DUST University Ivy League
505
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Posted - 2013.06.19 19:58:00 -
[39] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:50 WP to hack a CRU/Turret/Supply Depot
Divided by the time it takes to hack a CRU/Turret/Supply Depot
Multiplied by the time it takes to Counter Hack an Objective
Equals the amount of WP we should get for a Counter Hack.
Round it to the nearest multiple of 5.
Is this counted at base hacking speed? With how many people hacking? What are their hacking speed? Are any of the Hackers equipped with codebreakers, if so how many? Would it be different for each person? It should simply be a set number. I suggested 150 because of the risk involved, the time it takes, and the overall team benefit if successful. What are you on about? All of the cases you mention affect hacking speed by a percentage, so as long as the same variables are applied throughout the equation the outcome would be the same. Maybe you would understand it better if I express it like this:
(50/A)B = C
where: 50 = the number of WP for hacking a CRU. A = the time it takes to hack a CRU. B = the time it takes to Counter Hack. C = the number of WP that should be awarded for Counter Hacking.
So it does not mater whether you go with base hacking time, or if you apply a bunch of bonuses to it, as long as you apply the same conditions (bonuses) to B as you did to A, the value for C will come out the same.
So if it takes everyone 3 times linger to Counter Hack than it takes them to hack a CRU, then 150 WP for a Counter Hack would be appropriate. (50 x 3 = 150)
However, if it only takes everyone 2.3 times longer to Counter Hack than it takes them to hack a CRU, then 115 WP for a Counter Hack would be appropriate. (50 x 2.3 = 115)
I donGÇÖt know exactly how much longer it takes to Counter Hack than it takes to hack a CRU, so I just gave the equation so that someone with the numbers can figure it out.
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Jammer Jalapeno
BIG BAD W0LVES Eternal Syndicate
34
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Posted - 2013.06.19 20:45:00 -
[40] - Quote
Great ideas!!!
+1 |
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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
278
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Posted - 2013.06.19 21:56:00 -
[41] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:50 WP to hack a CRU/Turret/Supply Depot
Divided by the time it takes to hack a CRU/Turret/Supply Depot
Multiplied by the time it takes to Counter Hack an Objective
Equals the amount of WP we should get for a Counter Hack.
Round it to the nearest multiple of 5.
Is this counted at base hacking speed? With how many people hacking? What are their hacking speed? Are any of the Hackers equipped with codebreakers, if so how many? Would it be different for each person? It should simply be a set number. I suggested 150 because of the risk involved, the time it takes, and the overall team benefit if successful. What are you on about? All of the cases you mention affect hacking speed by a percentage, so as long as the same variables are applied throughout the equation the outcome would be the same. Maybe you would understand it better if I express it like this: (50/A)B = C where: 50 = the number of WP for hacking a CRU. A = the time it takes to hack a CRU. B = the time it takes to Counter Hack. C = the number of WP that should be awarded for Counter Hacking. So it does not mater whether you go with base hacking time, or if you apply a bunch of bonuses to it, as long as you apply the same conditions (bonuses) to B as you did to A, the value for C will come out the same. So if it takes everyone 3 times linger to Counter Hack than it takes them to hack a CRU, then 150 WP for a Counter Hack would be appropriate. (50 x 3 = 150) However, if it only takes everyone 2.3 times longer to Counter Hack than it takes them to hack a CRU, then 115 WP for a Counter Hack would be appropriate. (50 x 2.3 = 115) I donGÇÖt know exactly how much longer it takes to Counter Hack than it takes to hack a CRU, so I just gave the equation so that someone with the numbers can figure it out. I see now. What I don't like is that this model does not take into account the risk involved in the counter hack or the benefit counterhacking provides to the team. Imho these should be the major determining factors when deciding how much warpoints one should receive for counterhacking. Quite often counterhacking happens in the middle of a conflict. There may be multiple enemy dropuplinks surrounding the area in question. In order to prevent loss of the objective in these situations one must hack in the middle of a gunfight, which is quite risky and should be rewarded handsomely. |
Vallud Eadesso
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
218
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Posted - 2013.06.19 23:18:00 -
[42] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote: 150 WP for stopping a virus upload.
Stopping the virus upload takes longer than hacking a captured objective and there is more risk involved. This would deter team members from sitting and waiting for an objective to turn so they can hack it for the points and give them incentive to stop the upload and keep the objective blue.
This has been asked for since the MPT and why we STILL don't have it, I don't know. It takes so long to counter a hack and for nothing.
Seems pointless, quicker to just let it tick over. |
PlanetSide2Bomber
Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.06.20 03:17:00 -
[43] - Quote
Be your own Judge. What game looks like more fun to you? Dust.........Or this.........
Planetside 2
Coming to PS4 this year Insane Infantry Push Amazing Night Battle Night to Day Canyon Battle Intense Field Battle Desert Infantry Line Huge Desert Tank Battle 100 Tank Convoy 150 man Air Raid 65/0 Kill streak in the air
NC Montage
Factions Explained |
Mikael Murray
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.06.21 00:44:00 -
[44] - Quote
Yes more wp for anti hacks, like ammo and uplinks as well as hacks |
Ray Poe
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.06.22 17:53:00 -
[45] - Quote
Hope we will get this soon.
It makes great sence |
Atikali Havendoorr
HERBGROWERS
28
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Posted - 2013.07.07 05:13:00 -
[46] - Quote
I was supposed to write something about the amount of war points, but the more I think about it, the more unsure I get about it. So... I don't really care if counter-hacking is lower, higher or equal the normal. Any WP reward is basically fine.
Original text/thoughts in italic: I think the WP should be around 50-80. The risk of getting an enemy spawn almost immediately after the hack is complete, giving 100wp to the enemy, thus kinda nullifying your later effort, and letting your own MCC take a few hits, should be incitement enough to stop the hack before that happens. As someone said, WP doesn't win games. The longer counter-hacking time corresponds to the avoided risk of getting an enemy spawn, and saving your MCC some hits. On the other hand, since you prevented your MCC from taking hits by hacking it earlier, maybe you should be granted more WP.
WeapondigitX V7 wrote:+1 for this idea.
We should also get 10 bonus points for killing someone trying to hack an objective. +1! Yes, absolutely! I would say killing an enemy in or in the absolute vicinity of an allied null cannon.
Fox Gaden wrote:... In other words, if the reward for counter hack is 100 WP than Team 1 might give up after two attempts to hack objective A knowing that if they attempt and fail 3 more times the reward that they will have effectively "handed" the enemy will out-weigh the reward their team will get if they successfully hack the objective. If the reward for counter hacks is only 50 WP however, the number of successes required to cover the number of failures is reduced. ... Very clever! Combined with the other arguments, I think it's more than enough to say that WP for counterhack should be less than "normal" hack.
Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote:25-50WP for counter hack seems about right.
CCP should take care to set a timer on each cannon similar to rep bonuses. A terminal should stop giving WP if hacked/counter-hacked a certain number of times during a certain period of time to prevent abuse.
Yes! In this case, WP could be equally high for counter-hack as normal hack.
Justin Aim wrote:What about 50 for hacking plus another 50 when the hack completes? Then a counter-hack can be 50 as well. It'll make fighters stick around to defend for those extra 50 points. It's got balance but the attacker will come out on top if they stick with it.
There's opportunity for exploitation in that scenario but that possibility is already there now. Wow, perhaps the beast idea! Or..?
ZDub 303 wrote:It has to be equal to the number of points you get from waiting and hacking it back... or people are still incentivized to wait it out.
Also... if you start counter hacking it should stop the transition timer so you don't enter into a situation where it aborts your counter hack cause it had finished before you could get it off.
Also (again)... if an objective is contested it shouldn't still be shooting at the MCC. It should do nothing until its back to an active side, one way or another.
Some of the many reasons I don't care to play skirmish/dom in this game. That gives the hacking a whole different mechanic. And I don't like it. |
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