DUST Search - Devs, Are Skills Additive, Or Multiplicative???

NeoWraith Acedia wrote:

Forlorn Destrier wrote:

NeoWraith Acedia wrote:

Sso I have this thread with some numbers, but it's recently come to my attention that my numbers might be off because I did all calculations under the impression that those skills were additive. At first i thought they were multiplicative, but someone insisted they were not.

So what skills are Multiplicative? And what skills are additive? If any...
The same question applies for racial bonuses.

This is mostly about the CPU and PG skills along with the Shield Extension and Caldari Logi bonus
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75780

Depends on the skill and the module, if any.

For example, if you have the shield skill that gives bonus HP to 5, you get 25% extra shields based on the base of the suit. So if you start with 200, you now have 250.

Next, your shied mods are applied. Assuming you have the module effieincy skill at 5, you modules get a 10% bump - let's say you have the extender that normally gives 33 HP, well you now have 36.3 per extender. This is added to the new 250. If you have three of these, your new HP is 358.9 (rounded up to 359).

If you have two skills that impact the same stat, they are not compounded. For example, if you have the skill that gives 1% bonus to CPU and PG at level 5, that is a 5% bump. If your base is 100 CPU, then you get another 5 CPU.

If you have the skill that bumps CPU only, each level going up 5%, and this skill is at 5, you get an added 25 CPU in addition to the other 5, so your total is now 130. You do not get a bonus of 25% over 105, you get it the bonus added to the base of 100 since both skills affect the same thing. Make sense?

Thank, you, yes, that makes perfect sense. So in the case of the shield extenders on a caldari logi both would be applied separately so it would be (66 x 1.10 x 1.25), and not (66 X 1.35)?

The Caldari Logi bonus effects shield extenders just like the shield extension skill, so that leads me to believe they would not be compounded though.

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NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 419	Posted - 2013.05.13 21:43:00 - [1] - Quote Sso I have this thread with some numbers, but it's recently come to my attention that my numbers might be off because I did all calculations under the impression that those skills were additive. At first i thought they were multiplicative, but someone insisted they were not. So what skills are Multiplicative? And what skills are additive? If any... The same question applies for racial bonuses. This is mostly about the CPU and PG skills along with the Shield Extension and Caldari Logi bonus https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75780
Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 1052	Posted - 2013.05.13 21:56:00 - [2] - Quote The answer is... Neither.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 391	Posted - 2013.05.13 22:02:00 - [3] - Quote multiplicative
Forlorn Destrier ZionTCD Unclaimed. 967	Posted - 2013.05.13 22:03:00 - [4] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Sso I have this thread with some numbers, but it's recently come to my attention that my numbers might be off because I did all calculations under the impression that those skills were additive. At first i thought they were multiplicative, but someone insisted they were not. So what skills are Multiplicative? And what skills are additive? If any... The same question applies for racial bonuses. This is mostly about the CPU and PG skills along with the Shield Extension and Caldari Logi bonus https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75780 Depends on the skill and the module, if any. For example, if you have the shield skill that gives bonus HP to 5, you get 25% extra shields based on the base of the suit. So if you start with 200, you now have 250. Next, your shied mods are applied. Assuming you have the module effieincy skill at 5, you modules get a 10% bump - let's say you have the extender that normally gives 33 HP, well you now have 36.3 per extender. This is added to the new 250. If you have three of these, your new HP is 358.9 (rounded up to 359). If you have two skills that impact the same stat, they are not compounded. For example, if you have the skill that gives 1% bonus to CPU and PG at level 5, that is a 5% bump. If your base is 100 CPU, then you get another 5 CPU. If you have the skill that bumps CPU only, each level going up 5%, and this skill is at 5, you get an added 25 CPU in addition to the other 5, so your total is now 130. You do not get a bonus of 25% over 105, you get it the bonus added to the base of 100 since both skills affect the same thing. Make sense?
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 420	Posted - 2013.05.13 22:09:00 - [5] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The answer is... Neither. You got me into this mess you ass
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 420	Posted - 2013.05.13 22:14:00 - [6] - Quote Forlorn Destrier wrote: NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Sso I have this thread with some numbers, but it's recently come to my attention that my numbers might be off because I did all calculations under the impression that those skills were additive. At first i thought they were multiplicative, but someone insisted they were not. So what skills are Multiplicative? And what skills are additive? If any... The same question applies for racial bonuses. This is mostly about the CPU and PG skills along with the Shield Extension and Caldari Logi bonus https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75780 Depends on the skill and the module, if any. For example, if you have the shield skill that gives bonus HP to 5, you get 25% extra shields based on the base of the suit. So if you start with 200, you now have 250. Next, your shied mods are applied. Assuming you have the module effieincy skill at 5, you modules get a 10% bump - let's say you have the extender that normally gives 33 HP, well you now have 36.3 per extender. This is added to the new 250. If you have three of these, your new HP is 358.9 (rounded up to 359). If you have two skills that impact the same stat, they are not compounded. For example, if you have the skill that gives 1% bonus to CPU and PG at level 5, that is a 5% bump. If your base is 100 CPU, then you get another 5 CPU. If you have the skill that bumps CPU only, each level going up 5%, and this skill is at 5, you get an added 25 CPU in addition to the other 5, so your total is now 130. You do not get a bonus of 25% over 105, you get it the bonus added to the base of 100 since both skills affect the same thing. Make sense? Thank, you, yes, that makes perfect sense. So in the case of the shield extenders on a caldari logi both would be applied separately so it would be (66 x 1.10 x 1.25), and not (66 X 1.35)? The Caldari Logi bonus effects shield extenders just like the shield extension skill, so that leads me to believe they would not be compounded though.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 391	Posted - 2013.05.13 22:24:00 - [7] - Quote in that case it would be (base+shield extenders x role bonus ) x shield skill
Rogatien Merc Ill Omens EoN. 39	Posted - 2013.05.13 22:25:00 - [8] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Forlorn Destrier wrote: NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Sso I have this thread with some numbers, but it's recently come to my attention that my numbers might be off because I did all calculations under the impression that those skills were additive. At first i thought they were multiplicative, but someone insisted they were not. So what skills are Multiplicative? And what skills are additive? If any... The same question applies for racial bonuses. This is mostly about the CPU and PG skills along with the Shield Extension and Caldari Logi bonus https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75780 Depends on the skill and the module, if any. For example, if you have the shield skill that gives bonus HP to 5, you get 25% extra shields based on the base of the suit. So if you start with 200, you now have 250. Next, your shied mods are applied. Assuming you have the module effieincy skill at 5, you modules get a 10% bump - let's say you have the extender that normally gives 33 HP, well you now have 36.3 per extender. This is added to the new 250. If you have three of these, your new HP is 358.9 (rounded up to 359). If you have two skills that impact the same stat, they are not compounded. For example, if you have the skill that gives 1% bonus to CPU and PG at level 5, that is a 5% bump. If your base is 100 CPU, then you get another 5 CPU. If you have the skill that bumps CPU only, each level going up 5%, and this skill is at 5, you get an added 25 CPU in addition to the other 5, so your total is now 130. You do not get a bonus of 25% over 105, you get it the bonus added to the base of 100 since both skills affect the same thing. Make sense? Thank, you, yes, that makes perfect sense. So in the case of the shield extenders on a caldari logi both would be applied separately so it would be (66 x 1.10 x 1.25), and not (66 X 1.35)? The Caldari Logi bonus effects shield extenders just like the shield extension skill, so that leads me to believe they would not be compounded though. HP skills have always been limited to modifying base hitpoints before modules are taken into effect. The percentages per level are always added to one another so at level 3 of anything that gives +5% it is for example (.05 + .05 + .05) * ValueToBeModified.
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 421	Posted - 2013.05.13 22:30:00 - [9] - Quote ladwar wrote: in that case it would be (base+(shield extenders x role bonus) ) x shield skill It's multiplication, order doesn't matter So it would be 90.75, and not 89.1 right?
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 421	Posted - 2013.05.13 22:31:00 - [10] - Quote Rogatien Merc wrote: HP skills have always been limited to modifying base hitpoints before modules are taken into effect. The percentages per level are always added to one another so at level 3 of anything that gives +5% it is for example (.05 + .05 + .05) * ValueToBeModified. This modifies the mods, not the suits hit points guys. 5% efficacy to shield extender modules per level just like the shield extension skill is 2% to shield extenders.

Rogatien Merc Ill Omens EoN. 39	Posted - 2013.05.13 22:37:00 - [11] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Rogatien Merc wrote: HP skills have always been limited to modifying base hitpoints before modules are taken into effect. The percentages per level are always added to one another so at level 3 of anything that gives +5% it is for example (.05 + .05 + .05) * ValueToBeModified. This modifies the mods, not the suits hit points guys. 5% efficacy to shield extender modules per level just like the shield extension skill is 2% to shield extenders. Thanks for editing to explain "This". Because I wasn't talking about the Caldari Logi skill. In your original post: NeoWraith Acedia wrote: The Caldari Logi bonus effects shield extenders just like the shield extension skill, so that leads me to believe they would not be compounded though." ... and I was trying to further clarify and explain why you were right when you said they would not be compounded. Just for clarification of my clarification.
ImMortal SoLDieR X RestlessSpirits 42	Posted - 2013.05.13 22:38:00 - [12] - Quote START TRANSMISSION...................... Why you running here? when I gave you the x factor in another post your math was wrong. Max the caldari logi suit and skills out its 679 you sound intelligent figure it out solve for x lol. 679 .... 679 END TRANSMISSION.........................
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 421	Posted - 2013.05.13 22:40:00 - [13] - Quote So...89.1 is the right number right? Well thank you all for clarifying that, and I'm sorry I called Cat Merc an ass.
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 421	Posted - 2013.05.13 22:41:00 - [14] - Quote ImMortal SoLDieR X wrote: START TRANSMISSION...................... Why you running here? when I gave you the x factor in another post your math was wrong. Max the caldari logi suit and skills out its 679 you sound intelligent figure it out solve for x lol. 679 .... 679 END TRANSMISSION......................... oh god...
ImMortal SoLDieR X RestlessSpirits 42	Posted - 2013.05.13 22:44:00 - [15] - Quote START TRANSMISSION.............................. sounds more like 90.75 rounded to 91 to me. but what do I know Im an id............... END TRANSMISSION..................................
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 421	Posted - 2013.05.13 22:48:00 - [16] - Quote ImMortal SoLDieR X wrote: sounds more like 90.75 rounded to 91 to me. but what do I know Im an id............... Well duh, look, you clearly use the caldari suit and now what the right answer is, so just come out with it instead of being a little douche
ImMortal SoLDieR X RestlessSpirits 42	Posted - 2013.05.13 22:56:00 - [17] - Quote START TRANSMISSION ................. Ive been telling you since I started posting you wanna do math I gave you x. Do the math. Normally when ppl figure things out for themselves with a lil help they appreciate it more. Now im a douche!!! First I was an id............... now im a douche . wow !!! I give you the answer im a douche lol but you post wrong information and have ppl believing it like its gospel.... then when you find out your incorrect you start name calling... dude your despicable. hahahahahahahahaha. (looney toons) END TRANSMISSION.....................
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 445	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:01:00 - [18] - Quote ladwar wrote: in that case it would be (base+shield extenders x role bonus ) x shield skill I don't think that's quite the way it's calculated. I think it's (base x multipliers) + shield extenders
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 421	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:02:00 - [19] - Quote Laheon wrote: ladwar wrote: in that case it would be (base+shield extenders x role bonus ) x shield skill I don't think that's quite the way it's calculated. I think it's (base x multipliers) + shield extenders We're talking about shield extenders, not base shields
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 421	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:05:00 - [20] - Quote ImMortal SoLDieR X wrote: START TRANSMISSION ................. Ive been telling you since I started posting. You wanna do math I gave you x. Do the math. Normally when ppl figure things out for themselves with a lil help they appreciate it more. Now im a douche!!! First I was an id............... now im a douche . END TRANSMISSION..................... I asked you what math you used, you started talking about other things, then you just kept repeating that number without ever clarifying where you got it from. Is it from from the fitting screen? IDK, you just keep repeating the same crap over and over. And if your number is right then all you've done is made that suit look even more OP

hydraSlav's Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 107	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:09:00 - [21] - Quote [quote=Forlorn Destrier] Depends on the skill and the module, if any. For example, if you have the shield skill that gives bonus HP to 5, you get 25% extra shields based on the base of the suit. So if you start with 200, you now have 250. Next, your shied mods are applied. Assuming you have the module effieincy skill at 5, you modules get a 10% bump - let's say you have the extender that normally gives 33 HP, well you now have 36.3 per extender. This is added to the new 250. If you have three of these, your new HP is 358.9 (rounded up to 359).[\quote] Correct Quote: If you have two skills that impact the same stat, they are not compounded. For example, if you have the skill that gives 1% bonus to CPU and PG at level 5, that is a 5% bump. If your base is 100 CPU, then you get another 5 CPU. If you have the skill that bumps CPU only, each level going up 5%, and this skill is at 5, you get an added 25 CPU in addition to the other 5, so your total is now 130. You do not get a bonus of 25% over 105, you get it the bonus added to the base of 100 since both skills affect the same thing. Make sense? Incorrect. Multiple skills affecting the same attribute (just like multiple modules affecting the same attribute) are compounded (multiplied). Only difference is that skills don't have stacking penalty. So, if you have one skill giving 1% at LVL5 = Total 5% bonus And another skill giving 5% at LVL5 = Total 25% bonus You get: Base * Skill 1 * Skill 2 100 * 1.05 * 1.25 = 131.25, rounded to 131 I've tested this extensively in the previous build with Vigor and Endurance skills both of which effected Stamina https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=705932#post705932 . Multiple skills are 100% compounded, just like EvE and everything else in Dust. Huge note!!!! Last build there was a bug on Fitting Screen that sometimes showed CPU and/or PG stats at 1 less. I've posted on forums https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=545944#post545944, i've filed petitions and filed bugreports about it. It is also noted in my spreadsheet as known issue. I have not verified if the new build fixed it.
BMSTUBBY KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 217	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:11:00 - [22] - Quote LOL you guys are going to do all this and CCP will change it all next week after the next batch of QQ OP threads.
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 422	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:12:00 - [23] - Quote @hydraSlav's, so the correct number would be 91 per extender right?
ImMortal SoLDieR X RestlessSpirits 42	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:22:00 - [24] - Quote START TRANSMISSION........................ DUDE FIGURE IT OUT SOLVE FOR X !!!!!!!!!!!!!! ITS 91 per complex shield Extender but no ones gonna really use just 5 complex shields when a logi is so much more versatile. Now if they do, they limit the versatility of the suit. I repeat there are more things than shield extenders & Dmg mods to place in a suit but your tunnel vision wont allow you to see them in the market place your narrow sight has you oblivious to your hud map. Your small brain wont allow you to look at all the modules and skills.. That's not my fault, but if you really wanna talk look for me in game ill talk to you & help you expand beyond your assault suit mentality. I too had to grow !!! logi is really where its at !!!!!!!!!! END TRANSMISSION.........................
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 422	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:36:00 - [25] - Quote It's been fixed on the other page, and I would like to pass all the blame to Cat Merc, since he is in fact responsible.
hydraSlav's Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 107	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:43:00 - [26] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: @hydraSlav's, so the correct number would be 91 per extender right? Shield Extension 2%, at LVL5 = 10% or 1.1 Caldari Logi Bonus 5%, at LVL5 = 25% or 1.25 Complex Shield = 66 * 1.1 * 1.25 = 90.75 Now, last build, armor and shield seemed to be always rounded down, but that was Dropsuit shield (and there were no skills effecting module stats) I have not tested this build, so cannot confirm or deny if that shield value is rounded up or down.


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