DUST Search - The Bigger Picture

fred orpaul wrote:

Lonnar wrote:

Delta 749 wrote:

HMGs do more damage than before, 18 base with 10% on top of that, and get a buff to their firing cone and only really gets a range reduction

And they call that an over nerf, god some people

Also dont make excuses for the Devs breaking things, CCP has 10 years game dev experience and a year with this game so its not like they are new at this, add to that how other game developers can put out a product in the same amount of time that works as intended and it all wears thin

Inb4 fanboys whine and call me a troll, Im not trolling Im "metagaming"

Something I point out in my second post that I was writing in my reserved space as you were replying. You have to consider the sheer scope of the game before you start trying to compare it to other games.

Other games have a set idea, and roll with it until the end, they release a game within a year or so, and that's that. DUST 514 is more than "just a game" It's a game that is designed to be built upon and to constantly evolve. How many games (especially shooters) that are linked in real time to a game almost completely different and hell ... it's even cross-platform. We're talking a link between a PS3 console shooter linked with an online PC internet game. I am no programmer, I don't know jack about hardware, and I know even less about software and how it's coded and stuff ... but holy **** even I can see that something like this has never been attempted before, and the know-how, testing, and time needed to make this work is astronomical.

Not to sound angry or like a fanboy, but please consider the actual nature of this game and what it's trying to accomplish before you start comparing it to other games.

not to mention all the deals they had to make and continue to make with sony to get this game on a console, and having to deal with interfacing with the PSN. CCP does an amazing job(like most MMO and cloud service providers) of keeping its servers not only functional but running smoothly, now they have to work every thing through the PSN, Its hard enough to work with some one else's network guys to get what you need from them (this is a little more then peering networks here), but sony doesn't exactly have a stellar record when it comes to managing its PSN, so I can't imagine getting its techs to give you what you need is any thing but a special kind of hell.

That said god damn it CCP why do you keep doing the stuff people complain about over and over and over again? another HMG nerf really(yes they brought it back but comon), the scouts are still slow but the assaults are now even faster, did I here that the RE timer is shorter now cause while I loved death Frisbees they were game breaking. it seems like ever build they break the same **** over and over, that is getting old.

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Lonnar KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 17	Posted - 2013.05.13 04:19:00 - [1] - Quote Okay so. I've been digging around the forums more often these past few days since the release of Uprising, and I've been seeing a general trend in a couple of interesting directions after sifting out all the QQing and raging. So to start, I'd like to say that Uprising is an excellent build. There are a number of changes that made the game significantly more enjoyable. Conversely, as with any other patch, there are some bugs, broken changes, new tweaks to the system need to be made, and a host of other things that generally need to be done with games of this caliber. So ... since there's a lot more of them, let's start with the cons/ It appears that with the new revamp in weapon and vehicle balancing, a number of things broke. HMG was over-nerfed Mass Driver was over-nerfed Assault Rifle and several variants suddenly explode on the scene even more than before and run everything else down Introduction of skills for weapons not in place yet (Plasma Cannon, Scrambler Rifle, Flaylock Pistol) LAVs got an over-buff HAV related/important skills are broken Dropships and Assault Dropships got nothing new (nothing noticeable at any rate) These are the main complaints that I've been finding. There are others, and please, there is no need to remind us all of them, I'm sure us forum crawlers have seen enough of the other ones like broken skills and why some things shouldn't be nerfed and so on. On the plus side though, is something sadly lacking in the forums these days (or rather something that's been lacking since ever). So let's go over a number of good points that CCP has delivered on in the new build. Graphic update New aiming mechanics Spawning in Collision damage for vehicles New content in the form of racial suits and vehicles (aka added variety) Revamp of the Skill Tree Logging into the game The Starmap Larger Squads Removal of the Universal Voice Transmitters. Establishment of the CPM And a ton of other new stuff they launched. Now let's go over a couple of key GENERAL points on both sides that need to be addressed. Balance As with any other existing MMO out there, there will always be something that needs a balance. Weapons and vehicles are constantly going to need a tweak in certain directions. And unfortunately, there will be people who aren't happy with some balance acts. The nerf for the HMG might have been necessary since it now fills the role it's supposed to fill, point defense. I can understand the frustration since now Heavies are less effective at doing what they were doing before, charging in and wrecking stuff. But maybe, for the sake of argument, the nerf was put down a little too hard. Maybe now some sort of middle ground is needed to *balance* the issue. The same goes for vehicles. I personally find the reduction of collision damage was over-done. People are flying dropships and using them as giant feet to squish the red dots they find. That wasn't the intended use of a DS. The LAV buff was much needed, but perhaps not nearly as excessive. LAVs were used to get from point A to point B in record time but suffered from the fact they could hardly make it there half the time due to either poor driving or a simple AV nade/SW strike. But now that these problems have come to light, can we expect a fix? How soon? What kind of fix are we getting? This brings me to my next point. Communication Something that's been clearly missing for a while now is a clear communication line between the players and CCP. Thankfully, it's something CCP noticed (although it took them a while) and it's why we now have the CPM. Something people need to realize is now that the CPM is our voice to the Devs, and the Dev's voice to us, we need to give them the time and support they need to get the job done right. I've seen way too many posts from players trying to rip apart the CPM because they're not getting the information fast enough. Keep in mind people that the CPM can only work with what CCP gives them in the first place, just as they can only work with what we give them. The problem of communication doesn't only lie with the people at CCP and our esteemed CPM, part of the problem stems from us players as a community who seem to find it hard to deliver clear and concise feedback. I actually feel sorry for the CPM and CCP who have to dig through all of the QQing in order to find those few rare gems of pure understanding and knowledge. Broken Features Something we've all noticed very quickly is how some skills are broken or don't work the way they're supposed to. I'm going to be honest, I expect something to break *Every Single Time* they release a new patch, or even worse, a huge new build like Uprising. Not everything translates well from paper to practice and then from development to testing and then from testing to release. Some features might break early along the way, others will break at the end of the road. And sometimes, things will break that weren't even touched and were working fine until just a moment ago. This is the cost of technology ... **** breaks, get used to it. When the whole community gets up in arms over a single broken feature, how do you imagine the Devs feel? Try putting yourself in their shoes for a little bit and ask yourself "If I just programmed a feature for a game that works fine when I test it, but it broke in the transition from test to launch. And now the whole game community is out for my blood..." Are you gonna want to come into work the next day? It takes a toll on morale that does. Tone it down a bit guys ... please.
Lonnar KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 17	Posted - 2013.05.13 04:19:00 - [2] - Quote Reserved
Delta 749 Maverick Security Consulting 64	Posted - 2013.05.13 04:30:00 - [3] - Quote HMGs do more damage than before, 18 base with 10% on top of that, and get a buff to their firing cone and only really gets a range reduction And they call that an over nerf, god some people Also dont make excuses for the Devs breaking things, CCP has 10 years game dev experience and a year with this game so its not like they are new at this, add to that how other game developers can put out a product in the same amount of time that works as intended and it all wears thin Inb4 fanboys whine and call me a troll, Im not trolling Im "metagaming"
Crash Monster Snipers Anonymous 239	Posted - 2013.05.13 04:41:00 - [4] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: Also dont make excuses for the Devs breaking things, CCP has 10 years game dev experience and a year with this game so its not like they are new at this, add to that how other game developers can put out a product in the same amount of time that works as intended and it all wears thin I don't program games but I do write software. You have to factor in a lot of things... including team size, budget and experience. Not to mention of course the technical challenges. As far as I can tell CCP isn't making "just a shooter" so they've made the problem harder for themselves than it otherwise would have been. They've also made life harder for themselves by throwing everything out for the beta group who now misses the rate of progression and access to high end everything at once. OP, you are on the money in that anti-CCP rants and QQing are not an effective way to get the game into better shape. Unfortunately, it seems the majority of us here are of the type that have poor social skills.
Lonnar KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 22	Posted - 2013.05.13 04:49:00 - [5] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: HMGs do more damage than before, 18 base with 10% on top of that, and get a buff to their firing cone and only really gets a range reduction And they call that an over nerf, god some people Also dont make excuses for the Devs breaking things, CCP has 10 years game dev experience and a year with this game so its not like they are new at this, add to that how other game developers can put out a product in the same amount of time that works as intended and it all wears thin Inb4 fanboys whine and call me a troll, Im not trolling Im "metagaming" Something I point out in my second post that I was writing in my reserved space as you were replying. You have to consider the sheer scope of the game before you start trying to compare it to other games. Other games have a set idea, and roll with it until the end, they release a game within a year or so, and that's that. DUST 514 is more than "just a game" It's a game that is designed to be built upon and to constantly evolve. How many games (especially shooters) that are linked in real time to a game almost completely different and hell ... it's even cross-platform. We're talking a link between a PS3 console shooter linked with an online PC internet game. I am no programmer, I don't know jack about hardware, and I know even less about software and how it's coded and stuff ... but holy **** even I can see that something like this has never been attempted before, and the know-how, testing, and time needed to make this work is astronomical. Not to sound angry or like a fanboy, but please consider the actual nature of this game and what it's trying to accomplish before you start comparing it to other games.
Lonnar KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 25	Posted - 2013.05.13 22:52:00 - [6] - Quote Giving this a bump cause I still believe people need to see this
Lazy Scumbag The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 3	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:05:00 - [7] - Quote Don't forget the quicksand on terrain. Keep finding catch points that are hard to navigate.
BMSTUBBY KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 217	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:05:00 - [8] - Quote I would take the aiming mechanics off the good list. My tank turrets still can't shoot up even though I am aiming up.
McFurious BetaMax. CRONOS. 73	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:08:00 - [9] - Quote I agree with OP. There's been a lot of things done right in this build but also a lot of silly, baffling, things there were done just plain wrong. It was kind of expected though with all the changes the build was bringing to the game. I can't help but wonder if Uprising was built off an older beta build rather than Chromosome. I could have sworn some of these bugs were dealt with before.
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 30	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:22:00 - [10] - Quote I pretty much agree with everything posted OP. The amount of negativity on the forums is a bit much and I know that if I were a developer I'd be frustrated and demoralized. I'm more impressed with the build than critical of it. When this negativity is pointed out or anyone posts that they like the build and think CCP did something right there are typically one of 2 responses given: 1.) STFU - you are a fanboi! 2.) Belligerience is the way I get CCP to listen! Regardless - a lot was done right and I appreciate the efforts of the programmers on behalf of making this the coolest game ever. Call me a fanboi if you want. You can suck it.

Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 906	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:41:00 - [11] - Quote I love Lonnar and I love his posts. Hit me up anytime for a chat, Lonnar. :)
56 truth Algintal Core Gallente Federation 79	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:43:00 - [12] - Quote ( https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=74448&find=unread and drop kick)
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Unclaimed. 519	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:59:00 - [13] - Quote +1 Lonnar. An even-handed, considered and well-written review. A pleasure to read.
56 truth Algintal Core Gallente Federation 79	Posted - 2013.05.14 00:08:00 - [14] - Quote I have yet to read full it but it but from what I have read it seem like your a programmer or some one who knows a thing or two on game development or at the very lest watch's extra credits every now and again. you sir are king beta tester
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 1604	Posted - 2013.05.14 00:16:00 - [15] - Quote Collision damage is in a good place right now, it punishes mistakes but doesnt make you explode from tapping a lamppost. But that's me nitpicking, +1 op good points.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 861	Posted - 2013.05.14 00:25:00 - [16] - Quote 56 truth wrote: ( https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=74448&find=unread and drop kick) +1 I'm loving that series. Every developer and gamer should see that series. It's highly enlightening on the importance of gaming fundamentals in design and entertainment value. Back on subject, on the topic of balance: Every weapon or game mechanic seems to have been catered to front line assaults with an AR as if CCP is trying to cater to the modern FPS crowd. Outside of the anomalies that are spike damage weapons like sniper rifles and shotguns, every weapon has been nerfed to novelty compared to the AR's DPS This is why we see nothing but ARs on the field, because it's the best weapon in the game right now like its always been. The blanket nerf to everything else reduced everything to laughable levels of novelty. The AR isn't exactly a good weapon, but because of these changes it's better than everything because everything else around it was taken down a pet. The recent 10% increase threw fuel over the fire and though all the other weapons (barring peripheral buffs) are more efficient to Uprisings drastic effective HP increase in dropsuits, it pushed the AR even more over the line and this is why we see the explosion of Tactical Assault Rifles we've seen now. That 10% increase wasn't necessarily needed for the AR class and especially wasn't needed for the TAR. It was the equivalent of giving the AR class a free, stackable complex damage mod and it turned the TAR from an almost perfectly balanced skill based weapon, into a semi-automatic sniper rifle with CQC potential, superior to the Breach AR, which is supposed to fulfill that role. If anything, the AR class should have only gained a ~5% increase while excluding the TAR. As of right now, the AR, as it always has, out drastically surpasses the DPS of every light DOT weapon in the game and the HMG, while the TAR diminishes any incentive to use the other AR variants. If intended, this is a poorly designed move as a game developer and will hurt the perfect imbalance that Dust 514 needs to thrive and is a slap in the face to healthy elements of fun through counter play.
fred orpaul The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 279	Posted - 2013.05.14 00:46:00 - [17] - Quote you forgot: it feels like im trudging through a swamp when I play. scouts are still too slow and even more screwed thanks to the mimn assault. re-sized battle fields need a couple of passes to fix bad hack points, stairs, openings that are just too small now.
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 61	Posted - 2013.05.14 01:10:00 - [18] - Quote Subtract these: Graphic Update New Aiming Mechanics Spawning In Revamp of the Skill Tree We obviously have not been playing the same game. That......or you play with Permanent Beer Goggles equipped :P
fred orpaul The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 279	Posted - 2013.05.14 01:18:00 - [19] - Quote Lonnar wrote: Delta 749 wrote: HMGs do more damage than before, 18 base with 10% on top of that, and get a buff to their firing cone and only really gets a range reduction And they call that an over nerf, god some people Also dont make excuses for the Devs breaking things, CCP has 10 years game dev experience and a year with this game so its not like they are new at this, add to that how other game developers can put out a product in the same amount of time that works as intended and it all wears thin Inb4 fanboys whine and call me a troll, Im not trolling Im "metagaming" Something I point out in my second post that I was writing in my reserved space as you were replying. You have to consider the sheer scope of the game before you start trying to compare it to other games. Other games have a set idea, and roll with it until the end, they release a game within a year or so, and that's that. DUST 514 is more than "just a game" It's a game that is designed to be built upon and to constantly evolve. How many games (especially shooters) that are linked in real time to a game almost completely different and hell ... it's even cross-platform. We're talking a link between a PS3 console shooter linked with an online PC internet game. I am no programmer, I don't know jack about hardware, and I know even less about software and how it's coded and stuff ... but holy ** even I can see that something like this has never been attempted before, and the know-how, testing, and time needed to make this work is astronomical. Not to sound angry or like a fanboy, but please consider the actual nature of this game and what it's trying to accomplish before you start comparing it to other games. not to mention all the deals they had to make and continue to make with sony to get this game on a console, and having to deal with interfacing with the PSN. CCP does an amazing job(like most MMO and cloud service providers) of keeping its servers not only functional but running smoothly, now they have to work every thing through the PSN, Its hard enough to work with some one else's network guys to get what you need from them (this is a little more then peering networks here), but sony doesn't exactly have a stellar record when it comes to managing its PSN, so I can't imagine getting its techs to give you what you need is any thing but a special kind of hell. That said god damn it CCP why do you keep doing the stuff people complain about over and over and over again? another HMG nerf really(yes they brought it back but comon), the scouts are still slow but the assaults are now even faster, did I here that the RE timer is shorter now cause while I loved death Frisbees they were game breaking. it seems like ever build they break the same ** over and over, that is getting old.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 869	Posted - 2013.05.14 01:23:00 - [20] - Quote fred orpaul wrote: Lonnar wrote: Delta 749 wrote: HMGs do more damage than before, 18 base with 10% on top of that, and get a buff to their firing cone and only really gets a range reduction And they call that an over nerf, god some people Also dont make excuses for the Devs breaking things, CCP has 10 years game dev experience and a year with this game so its not like they are new at this, add to that how other game developers can put out a product in the same amount of time that works as intended and it all wears thin Inb4 fanboys whine and call me a troll, Im not trolling Im "metagaming" Something I point out in my second post that I was writing in my reserved space as you were replying. You have to consider the sheer scope of the game before you start trying to compare it to other games. Other games have a set idea, and roll with it until the end, they release a game within a year or so, and that's that. DUST 514 is more than "just a game" It's a game that is designed to be built upon and to constantly evolve. How many games (especially shooters) that are linked in real time to a game almost completely different and hell ... it's even cross-platform. We're talking a link between a PS3 console shooter linked with an online PC internet game. I am no programmer, I don't know jack about hardware, and I know even less about software and how it's coded and stuff ... but holy ** even I can see that something like this has never been attempted before, and the know-how, testing, and time needed to make this work is astronomical. Not to sound angry or like a fanboy, but please consider the actual nature of this game and what it's trying to accomplish before you start comparing it to other games. not to mention all the deals they had to make and continue to make with sony to get this game on a console, and having to deal with interfacing with the PSN. CCP does an amazing job(like most MMO and cloud service providers) of keeping its servers not only functional but running smoothly, now they have to work every thing through the PSN, Its hard enough to work with some one else's network guys to get what you need from them (this is a little more then peering networks here), but sony doesn't exactly have a stellar record when it comes to managing its PSN, so I can't imagine getting its techs to give you what you need is any thing but a special kind of hell. That said god damn it CCP why do you keep doing the stuff people complain about over and over and over again? another HMG nerf really(yes they brought it back but comon), the scouts are still slow but the assaults are now even faster, did I here that the RE timer is shorter now cause while I loved death Frisbees they were game breaking. it seems like ever build they break the same over and over, that is getting old. +1,000,000 And sometimes they fix ** that wasn't broken. Not based on beta feedback, but because a co-worker got butthurt in an office LAN party.

fred orpaul The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 279	Posted - 2013.05.14 01:27:00 - [21] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: Subtract these: Graphic Update New Aiming Mechanics Spawning In Revamp of the Skill Tree We obviously have not been playing the same game. That......or you play with Permanent Beer Goggles equipped :P spawn in is much better, skill tree is great for some things and the skill sheet is still there for every thing else, the UI in general is improved greatly. The graphics update.....well yes its an improvement I guess higher res and better textures..... still missing some polish tho It just feels off, not to mention the smaller maps to allow all of this to happen, lag issues still make the game a chore to play, god damn it ccp fix the god damn weapons swap im never sure if it didn't swap or if it is taking its damn time or if it bugged, the number of times I have died or didn't get a kill because of that stupid ** is reaching the triple digits, it takes 1-2seconds to swap weapons WHY THE ** IS THAT LAGGING!?
fred orpaul The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 279	Posted - 2013.05.14 01:31:00 - [22] - Quote damn it cosgar any time you and I agree I have to really question my POV.
fred orpaul The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 279	Posted - 2013.05.14 01:45:00 - [23] - Quote some one mentioned this feeling like it was based off of a previous build, you might be right and that would explain a lot. It could be they have two teams each has its own build and the team that releases then patches while the other team works on their build to update it and make it the new release so on so forth. I'm probably WAY off base but I wouldn't be surprised if its something like this.
Lonnar KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 35	Posted - 2013.05.14 13:16:00 - [24] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: I love Lonnar and I love his posts. Hit me up anytime for a chat, Lonnar. :) Well crackers. Hearing this from one of the elected CPM. That's one hell of a compliment. Thanks Nova. I'd love to chat sometime. I'll send you an in-game mail, and maybe we can set something up for the heck of it =)
Lonnar KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 35	Posted - 2013.05.14 13:19:00 - [25] - Quote 56 truth wrote: I have yet to read full it but it but from what I have read it seem like your a programmer or some one who knows a thing or two on game development or at the very lest watch's extra credits every now and again. you sir are king beta tester Thanks for the "King Beta Tester" compliment. I regret to inform you though, that this is the first beta I have ever played ... ever (and hell I don't have a single FPS game in my collection ... go figure). Also, I know squat about programming. I like to call my perceived knowledge "Open-Mindedness"
Lonnar KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 36	Posted - 2013.05.15 12:45:00 - [26] - Quote Giving this another bump
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 4114	Posted - 2013.05.15 16:31:00 - [27] - Quote I approve of the OP.
Killit With Fire DUST University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2013.05.15 21:13:00 - [28] - Quote +1 to OP


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