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(Feedback) The price on skills is simply too high

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Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Orion Empire 106	Posted - 2013.05.12 08:00:00 - [1] - Quote I logged on my other character on the same account as Joseph. I had never played him, never got into a game, did NOTHING with him and merely created him to see what the Amarr barracks looked like. I decided I would have some fun to see what could a new player do with their starting 500,000 SP. I was shocked, however, to see that the biggest limitation is NOT starting SP but cash. The alt had 1.8 million ISK. How did I have this much without playing him? Simple: the reset game him 1.6 million for the fact that he had starting skills as one of the base roles (that are now gone). I decided to try a little test. Imagine a new player, new but very smart. They looked up the forums and decided, well in advance, what they were going to do. Let's say they wanted to be a Caldari Assault player. Being well informed, they know they can't flat skill into Assault for at least several weeks, so they bide their time getting necessary skills so they can rock out with those groovy Caldari Medium Frames. Here is what they buy, the price, why they bought it. Dropsuit Command: 48,000. Clearly it HAS to be gotten for any character. Racial Dropsuit Skill: 229,000. They want to get into a X Frame. It is necessary. Weaponry: 48,000. Prerequisite for ANY weapon. Light Weapon Operation: 66,000. Needed for... Assault Rifle Operation: 149,000. So there they have all they need to say "I can use an Assault Suit with a Basic Assault Rifle. Price? 540,000. More than twice what a newbie would start with. But other skills are surely needed. Dropsuit Upgrades: 48,000. Needed to open up the Upgrades line. Dropsuit Shield Upgrades: 48,000. The new player IS a Caldari after all. Dropsuit Shield Extension: 149,000. Use better Extenders. Dropsuit Shield Regulator: 149,000. Not much else should go in those low slots, so Regulators are go. Hmm, another. 394,000. Anything else that would be great to have? Actually, yes. Of all the Militia vs. Basic gear. grenades have the biggest impact. Going from 2 grenades to 3 is simply too massive NOT to get as quickly as possible. Price? Explosives: 66,000. Opens up... Grenadier: 378,000. 3 grenades open. The total price is 1,378,000. Clearly, the new player can't handle that. At all. Look at any of the prices. The new player can't even afford to get a Racial Frame. Say the new player is not great because, well, they are new. Say they pull in 110,000 per Ambush (if that, I was lower starting out). That is going to be 10 matches because they make up the 1.128 million for just the skills that the well researched newbie needs. "That doesn't sound so bad. What's the issue?" What does the non researched newbie do? "Hmm, I don't have the money to buy the skills. I can just spend my SP and I'll have the SP back by the time I have the ISK." They end up wasting points, getting frustrated at the game, and possibly quitting almost immediately. The hilarity of the whole thing is that the cash that my alt got back was over 1.378 million... Be well.
Kleanur Guy SyNergy Gaming EoN. 226	Posted - 2013.05.12 08:28:00 - [2] - Quote Militia Gear.
Zyrus Amalomyn Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 125	Posted - 2013.05.12 08:38:00 - [3] - Quote Kleanur Guy wrote: Militia Gear. That doesn't help a handle to standard and advanced gear. It's not a substitute; it's a stepping stone.
J-Lewis Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 67	Posted - 2013.05.12 09:53:00 - [4] - Quote New players should start with most of their SP allocated, depending on race of choice. Dropsuit Command -+ 43,540 SP Gùï Dropsuit Command I -+ 6,220 SP Gùï Racial Medium Dropsuits I -+ 37,320 SP Dropsuit Upgrades -+ 198,980 SP Gùï Dropsuit Upgrades II -+ 18,650 SP Gùï Dropsuit Core Upgrades II -+ 37,300 SP Gùÿ Either: GÇó Amarr -+ Drop Uplink Deployment I -+ 18,660 SP GÇó Gallente -+ Active Scanner Operation I -+ 18,660 SP GÇó Caldari -+ Nanocircuitry I -+ 18,660 SP GÇó Minmatar -+ Repair Tool Operation I -+ 18,660 SP Gùÿ Either: GÇó Amarr/Gallente -+ Dropsuit Armor Upgrades I -+ 12,440 SP GÇó Caldari/Minmatar -+ Dropsuit Shield Upgrades I -+ 12,440 SP Gùÿ Either: GÇó Amarr/Gallente -+ Armor Plating I -+ 18,660 SP GÇó Caldari -+ Shield Extension I -+ 18,660 SP GÇó Minmatar -+ Shield Recharging I -+ 18,660 SP Gùÿ Either: GÇó Amarr/Gallente -+ Armor Repair Systems I -+ 18,660 SP GÇó Caldari/Minmatar -+ Shield Regulation I -+ 18,660 SP Weaponry -+ 205,220 SP Gùï Weaponry III -+ 43,530 SP Gùï Explosives I -+ 12,440 SP Gùï Grenadier I -+ 24,880 SP Gùï Handheld Weapon Upgrades I -+ 12,440 SP Gùÿ Either: GÇó Amarr/Caldari -+ Sidearm Operation I -+ 12,440 SP GÇó Gallente/Minmatar -+ Sidearm Operation II -+ 37,300 SP Gùÿ Either: GÇó Amarr -+ Scrambler Pistol Operation I -+ 12,440 SP GÇó Gallente -+ Ion Pistol Operation I -+ 12,440 SP GÇó Caldari -+ Rail Pistol Operation I -+ 12,440 SP GÇó Minmatar -+ Submachine Gun Operation I -+ 12,440 SP Gùÿ Either: GÇó Amarr/Caldari -+ Light Weapon Operation II -+ 37,300 SP GÇó Gallente/Minmatar -+ Light Weapon Operation I -+ 12,440 SP Gùÿ Either: GÇó Amarr -+ Scrambler Rifle Operation I -+ 12,440 SP GÇó Gallente -+ Assault Rifle Operation I -+ 12,440 SP GÇó Caldari -+ Rail Rifle Operation I -+ 12,440 SP GÇó Minmatar -+ Combat Rifle Operation I -+ 12,440 SP TOTAL: GÖª 447,740 SP allocated, plus 52,260 SP unallocated. This leaves enough spare SP for the user to tack on one or two desired skills. 250k ISK and 52,260 SP is about enough for the first level in two untrained 3x skills. The biggest issue for new players is militia gear being completely useless without support skills; this proposed skill set offsets that by allowing new players to instantly jump into a fully standard fit basic suit of their race. Note: Some of the skills are for gear that doesn't exist yet, so prereqs are unknown.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Orion Empire 109	Posted - 2013.05.12 13:06:00 - [5] - Quote The notion of starting with Skill Points allocated in things you have no concept of before you start the game is a bad move in my opinion. At least with the last "Class" choices it told you what weapons they would use using basic games terms like "Sniper Rifle" or "Heavy Suit." Would be kind of lame to read Amarr and think "Holy Roman Empire in Space!" and get stuck with a specialization you simply do not like.
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 495	Posted - 2013.05.12 13:54:00 - [6] - Quote I actually think it's kind of a good idea for new players to start off with a little SP and nowhere near enough ISK to use all of it right away. If they have the cash to do it, most people will burn their SP before they even know what to do with it, and then come to regret it. Just as an example, we had some players in Subdreddit last build who had trained up some corporation skills. A complete waste of SP. People need to get some battle experience before they can make informed choices.
Wombat in combat Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 12	Posted - 2013.05.12 21:38:00 - [7] - Quote I don't think the prizes for skill books is that high. Sure for a beginner it might be an obstacle but I remember I felt very rewarded once I had earned them.
Patoman Radiant ZionTCD Unclaimed. 101	Posted - 2013.05.12 21:48:00 - [8] - Quote If you play the game, you have more than enough isk, but not enough SP 120 milion, and I can't use all the protomods and suits I would like to. So to gauge what a starting player has based on a inactive account, is a false gauge, a new player, plays the game. Bittervets don't play alt accounts unless they have too much time on their hands.
Illendar Cortharis Digital Mercs 2	Posted - 2013.05.12 21:54:00 - [9] - Quote If everyone who joined EVE could use Titans from day 1, would the game be fun? I'm sorry that CCP has forced you to think about the choices you need to make and the impact they're going to have, but tough luck. Use Militia gear, work around your limitations.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Orion Empire 114	Posted - 2013.05.12 22:14:00 - [10] - Quote Illendar Cortharis wrote: If everyone who joined EVE could use Titans from day 1, would the game be fun? I'm sorry that CCP has forced you to think about the choices you need to make and the impact they're going to have, but tough luck. Use Militia gear, work around your limitations. Because what is stopping new players from using Titans is simply a lack of ISK I get the sense that you didn't really read my post too closely, at least from the notion that you mentioned Titans. I feel as if you think I am talking about Skill Point cost and not ISK price for SKill Books. Of course using Militia gear is an option; I never stated it wasn't. However, what does the new player know? They know they have 500k SP and 250k ISK. They can buy almost no skills to use all that SP in. Even once they get a grip, it would be quite a long time to even buy the skills. Skill Book ISK price is based on the multiplier of the skill and most of those were increased from Chromosome to Uprising. Be well.

slypie11 Planetary Response Organisation 274	Posted - 2013.05.12 22:19:00 - [11] - Quote Illendar Cortharis wrote: If everyone who joined EVE could use Titans from day 1, would the game be fun? I'm sorry that CCP has forced you to think about the choices you need to make and the impact they're going to have, but tough luck. Use Militia gear, work around your limitations. I'm sorry you think like that. You're probably used to militia gear with passive skills. I tried out militia gear after uprising hit before I had spent any SP, and it was completely useless. I think I want 5 to 0, after I pretty much tried to avoid any conflict. Even so, I don't think the SP gap is as bad as some people say it is. I only have three mil sp and I'm already rocking two full advanced fits with over 400 shields and I'm looking at the proto medium suit soon. Any player that hits his cap and sticks it out through the "militia stage" and makes a good base fit will be fine for the most part. I still don't have an AV fit, and there are definatly some important things I'm missing out on, but I'm having fun and killing people, so I think I'm doing pretty well.
F54423 Hand of Azrael 20	Posted - 2013.05.12 23:55:00 - [12] - Quote This game takes time to skill up. It's not meant to be max level/skill in your first week, even month. You play, you learn, you get better, you play, you earn skills/suits/weapons, you play, you get good. DUST 514. So play.
KalOfTheRathi Talon Strike Force LTD Orion Empire 447	Posted - 2013.05.13 00:14:00 - [13] - Quote The simple answer is don't play. I am not joking. If someone you know asks about playing DUST tell them to download it immediately. Help them create a character that they can live with for name, gender, race and bloodline. Turn on Passive SP and walk away. Far, far away. After a few months or more the character would be playable. It will not have nearly enough money but teaching them how to make ISK with pub stomping and cheap militia suits can rack up the ISK to the tune of 1M per day. Which would mean at the end of two weeks of play they should have enough ISK to buy the Skill Books and have the minimum SP to get a basic Suit and weapon. Don't forget the grenades.
Sponglyboy Squaredoo Not Guilty EoN. 42	Posted - 2013.05.13 02:05:00 - [14] - Quote This high demand of ISK will push people to get their selves in a supporting Corp.
J-Lewis Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 69	Posted - 2013.05.13 08:00:00 - [15] - Quote The idea behind allocating most of a new players SP is so they can skip militia. Like it or not, militia gear in its current implementation is only really useful for higher SP players. Around the time Open Beta hit I pulled a friend of mine with me into DUST. He promptly quit, refusing to play without me, as he just wasn't able to play effectively by himself. Fair enough, DUST is about teamwork. But then why am I still playing alone? I shrug, figuring solo DUST just isn't his thing, and forget about it. Fast forward a few months. Uprising hits, I manage to convince him to play a couple more matches. We play one match, he once again brings up how ineffective he feels -- I had told him to hold off on spending SP so he could try out the various militia gear to find his calling. He wants to use scoped weapons but the only one he can try is the sniper, but it's just not doing enough damage in addition to being unwieldy. I start thinking about what other scoped weapons are available. Something clicks inside my head. On a hunch I tell him to use what little SP he had accrued passively on skilling into an advanced suit load out. I set him up with a well fit 'Gallente Medium Frame G/1-series' with a 'GLU-5' TAR. We play one, two, three, five, seven matches. He's laughing on comms as he nails merc after merc with ruthless efficiency (partially down to the TAC being slightly OP). I left to make dinner, he kept playing (having had dinner earlier); he gets his turn squad commanding. It was like day and night: He cringed as he lost more suits than his paycheck could reimburse. He cheered when he made a profit (then he bought more suits). But most of all, he was having fun. So what did I learn? In his militia BPO starter suit, my friend wasn't feeling three very important things. He told me very bluntly: He didn't feel effective. His weapon didn't hurt. His dropsuit felt like it was made of papier mache. He didn't feel he was risking anything. DUST has been marketed as a harsh game where economic loss is a core factor in what you decide to risk for your reward. He didn't get the same risk induced rush as he did while PvPing in EVE Online. I couldn't feel his pain because I have core skills that make up for it -- I can run militia as much as I want, but when my suit has 25% more health than his and my modules are more effective, it's just no contest. He didn't have the skill set to make anything out of his suit. This is why I'm so vehemently for the game to allocate the majority of the starter SP. New players shouldn't have to struggle with the skill interface right off the bat to be effective; what they need more than anything is time and space to lean the game. They should be spending their first few matches worth of ISK on modules and dropsuits to find out what they like using, not wasting it on skill books.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens Orion Empire 48	Posted - 2013.05.13 12:10:00 - [16] - Quote I have 56M ISK so I dont have to worry about this :)
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Orion Empire 120	Posted - 2013.05.13 12:55:00 - [17] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: I have 56M ISK so I dont have to worry about this :) And I 150 million, but newbies ain't as lucky as most Ravens


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