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Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
733
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 04:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've never been quiet on my dislike of the Tac AR, but it fills a niche that many people love - the marksman. It's no sniper rifle, but it's able to take out reds at a great distance. The problem with the Tac AR is that it is still freaking amazing at CQC, and any failings that it might have are easily covered by making another fit with the same tier of the AR as it is governed by the exact same skill.
There is no trade off to skilling up the AR. You'll have a guaranteed great weapon at all ranges for the price of one skill. No other weapon is able to do that, and makes choices in what you want to do that much more limited.
This problem is then compounded by the Gallente Assault suit, which lets you fit high tier weapons without sacrificing any tank or damage output. This suit also is an armor tanker which is strong against lasers, the only weapon that can compete with the Tac AR for dealing damage at that range.
This puts all those small little advantages in the hands of the Tac AR, coming together to form the new OP (I hate that term too. please keep reading) weapon.
There does need to be a weapon to fill that role, It just shouldn't be in that skill tree.
My recommended course of action would be just to take the Tac AR out of the game. No nerfs to the point of being unplayable, just freaking nuke it and replace it with a new sniper rifle variant with a 25 round magazine and a decent rate of fire while extending the range slightly on the Gallente AR, ideally it's optimal should end where the LR starts. (possibly meaning bringing the LR's optimal in a little bit. but that's another thread)
This would accomplish a few things, namely it would give sniper rifle users the role of the designated marksman again. I can count on one hand how many times I've been shot by a sniper, let alone killed this build. Throw them a bone FFS. Less weapon diversity is the last thing this game needs.
secondly, it would balance out the roles of the various suits a little better. a low capacity weapon would put the Caldari assault in the running for owning the mid-long range game again with the suit specialty (reload bonus, for the uninformed), while letting the laser keep up with that role as it would be able to burn through Caldari shields (though the new variant would outrange the LR by a 10-20 meters), letting the designated marksman decide whether or not to close in and have a weapon that is still formidable in cqc though it doesn't fill that role as well as the AR or HMG.
As far as skill bonuses go, the new variant would still get helped by the sniper rifle op bonus of reduced sway as the rail rifle would have have to get settled in for a moment to balance having a longer range. |
Val'herik Dorn
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
520
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 04:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
The Tac AR is the caldari rail rifle by another name.
I can see it being replaced by the caldari rail rifle when it comes out. Of course this will lead to all the people who use the TAR basically QQing about how unfair that is. but have the Gallente assault rifle govern 4 different weapon variations is just too much. |
Zatara Rought
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
141
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Posted - 2013.05.10 05:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
I agree, I think the tac could be removed as a varient of the ar and introduced as part of a differently focused weapon. In the meantime, until CCP fixes the shooting mechanics there is absolutely zero leeway for causing more QQ on forums already saturated enough by tears to offset ice caps melting. |
Sev Kimura
Planetary Response Organization
92
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 06:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
I have been using the assault rifles, and I agree it's too one sided for those of us who use it. I don't know about completely nuking the TAR, but these guys are raising a good point. Namely, when specing into other weapons, no other weapon class has the versatility of the assault. Three different assault types in one skill tree allows me to adapt, where other weapons cannot.
That being said, we still kind of had that before, but because of the drastic changes and nerfs, assault rifles are clearly king right now. It's not right that an AR can easily outmatch a laser in their optimal range right now and go toe to toe with heavies.
The game was much more balanced before this build, but I know we can't just magically go back, and I love certain things about it. There just needs to be some changes in order to get the game back on track.
For the purposes of this thread I will just name some of the weapon problems. The TAR doesn't need to be nerfed, if you just buff other weapons. The HMG needs a damage boost, nothing too crazy, but they need it. The mass driver needs a blast radius buff, they practically have to be in shotgun range to do damage...and the laser, for gods sake, I advocated to nerf the laser, but damn, give the laser users something. The laser itself is hard to see where it is going, the iron sight gets in the way, the damage was nerfed, and the range is actually less than the TAR.
So please CCP, get on this right away, or you are going to see a even crazier flavor of the month than what the laser used to be. |
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
736
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Posted - 2013.05.10 22:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
and a bump. |
CLONE117
Planetary Response Organisation
2
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Posted - 2013.05.11 01:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Talos Alomar wrote:I've never been quiet on my dislike of the Tac AR, but it fills a niche that many people love - the marksman. It's no sniper rifle, but it's able to take out reds at a great distance. The problem with the Tac AR is that it is still freaking amazing at CQC, and any failings that it might have are easily covered by making another fit with the same tier of the AR as it is governed by the exact same skill.
There is no trade off to skilling up the AR. You'll have a guaranteed great weapon at all ranges for the price of one skill. No other weapon is able to do that, and makes choices in what you want to do that much more limited.
This problem is then compounded by the Gallente Assault suit, which lets you fit high tier weapons without sacrificing any tank or damage output. This suit also is an armor tanker which is strong against lasers, the only weapon that can compete with the Tac AR for dealing damage at that range.
This puts all those small little advantages in the hands of the Tac AR, coming together to form the new OP (I hate that term too. please keep reading) weapon.
There does need to be a weapon to fill that role, It just shouldn't be in that skill tree.
My recommended course of action would be just to take the Tac AR out of the game. No nerfs to the point of being unplayable, just freaking nuke it and replace it with a new sniper rifle variant with a 25 round magazine and a decent rate of fire while extending the range slightly on the Gallente AR, ideally it's optimal should end where the LR starts. (possibly meaning bringing the LR's optimal in a little bit. but that's another thread)
This would accomplish a few things, namely it would give sniper rifle users the role of the designated marksman again. I can count on one hand how many times I've been shot by a sniper, let alone killed this build. Throw them a bone FFS. Less weapon diversity is the last thing this game needs.
secondly, it would balance out the roles of the various suits a little better. a low capacity weapon would put the Caldari assault in the running for owning the mid-long range game again with the suit specialty (reload bonus, for the uninformed), while letting the laser keep up with that role as it would be able to burn through Caldari shields (though the new variant would outrange the LR by a 10-20 meters), letting the designated marksman decide whether or not to close in and have a weapon that is still formidable in cqc though it doesn't fill that role as well as the AR or HMG.
As far as skill bonuses go, the new variant would still get helped by the sniper rifle op bonus of reduced sway as the rail rifle would have have to get settled in for a moment to balance having a longer range.
? tac ar is a rapid fire sniper rifle right now.
i lasers range needs to be increased alittle bit and base starting damage needs to be increased enough so it can actually kill a player instead of being harmless as it is now.
your idea of a 25 round sniper rifle is the scariest idea i have ever heard.
anys im sick of them theres enough of them in cod and they all run around "quickscoping"
less rounds and low rof of the sr makes better and more accurate snipers...
i dont want this game turning into call of duty.....
what this game needs for some balance is a damage reduction for the tac ar and a slower rof and a major nerf on the effectiveness of damage mods.... |
Tankin Tarkus
Quafe Runners
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 01:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
CLONE117 wrote:Talos Alomar wrote:I've never been quiet on my dislike of the Tac AR, but it fills a niche that many people love - the marksman. It's no sniper rifle, but it's able to take out reds at a great distance. The problem with the Tac AR is that it is still freaking amazing at CQC, and any failings that it might have are easily covered by making another fit with the same tier of the AR as it is governed by the exact same skill.
There is no trade off to skilling up the AR. You'll have a guaranteed great weapon at all ranges for the price of one skill. No other weapon is able to do that, and makes choices in what you want to do that much more limited.
This problem is then compounded by the Gallente Assault suit, which lets you fit high tier weapons without sacrificing any tank or damage output. This suit also is an armor tanker which is strong against lasers, the only weapon that can compete with the Tac AR for dealing damage at that range.
This puts all those small little advantages in the hands of the Tac AR, coming together to form the new OP (I hate that term too. please keep reading) weapon.
There does need to be a weapon to fill that role, It just shouldn't be in that skill tree.
My recommended course of action would be just to take the Tac AR out of the game. No nerfs to the point of being unplayable, just freaking nuke it and replace it with a new sniper rifle variant with a 25 round magazine and a decent rate of fire while extending the range slightly on the Gallente AR, ideally it's optimal should end where the LR starts. (possibly meaning bringing the LR's optimal in a little bit. but that's another thread)
This would accomplish a few things, namely it would give sniper rifle users the role of the designated marksman again. I can count on one hand how many times I've been shot by a sniper, let alone killed this build. Throw them a bone FFS. Less weapon diversity is the last thing this game needs.
secondly, it would balance out the roles of the various suits a little better. a low capacity weapon would put the Caldari assault in the running for owning the mid-long range game again with the suit specialty (reload bonus, for the uninformed), while letting the laser keep up with that role as it would be able to burn through Caldari shields (though the new variant would outrange the LR by a 10-20 meters), letting the designated marksman decide whether or not to close in and have a weapon that is still formidable in cqc though it doesn't fill that role as well as the AR or HMG.
As far as skill bonuses go, the new variant would still get helped by the sniper rifle op bonus of reduced sway as the rail rifle would have have to get settled in for a moment to balance having a longer range. ? tac ar is a rapid fire sniper rifle right now. i lasers range needs to be increased alittle bit and base starting damage needs to be increased enough so it can actually kill a player instead of being harmless as it is now. your idea of a 25 round sniper rifle is the scariest idea i have ever heard. anys im sick of them theres enough of them in cod and they all run around "quickscoping" less rounds and low rof of the sr makes better and more accurate snipers... i dont want this game turning into call of duty..... what this game needs for some balance is a damage reduction for the tac ar and a slower rof and a major nerf on the effectiveness of damage mods....
reducing the rate of fire and damage would basicly turn it into a very slow semi-auto breach AR with slightly increased range.... and if i remember correctly breach ARs already suffer from low DPS compared to standard AR's |
CLONE117
Planetary Response Organisation
4
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Posted - 2013.05.11 02:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
well i dont think the tac ar should match the damage of a scrambler pistol either. reducing the damage of the tac ar slightly and greatly nerfing damage mods would solve this rapid sniper rifle problem.
since as of right now that tac ar is killing ppl in 1 or 2 hits.
only snipers and certain explosive weaponry should have that capability. |
Waruiko DUST
G I A N T EoN.
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tac ar was balanced when ss was a thing... it needs to be rebalanced with that in mind. |
Tankin Tarkus
Quafe Runners
0
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Posted - 2013.05.11 02:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
yes damage mods are a problem when it comes to balancing weapons any weapon seems OP with 3x-5x damage mods(i remember doing the math for a breach scramber pistol with 4x complex and it was something like 700 damage headshots the basic breach being capable of mid 600s or say the breach AR having damage around that of the current Tac AR a decent fire rate with very good hip and ADS accuracy due to its slightly slower ROF)
but a Semi-auto sniper rifle isnt so bad the Tac AR would make a nice one with a slight increase in damage(90 damage max a normal sniper is something like 160+ i think) a decent amount of kick(enough to make rapid fire tough to get clean shots) and a large reduction on mag size(say drop it down to 10 shots a mag) and maybe give it a slightly weaker scope compared to an sniper rifle |
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CLONE117
Planetary Response Organisation
5
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Posted - 2013.05.11 02:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
that could be another good solution to the tac ar but then it would need a name change.
although in my own opinion the tac ar really shouldnt be considered an assault rifle just a rifle.
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Torr Wrath
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
224
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 03:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
+1 |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
947
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 03:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
Within the current context of the game since Uprising (both before and after the recent hotfix) the TAR is over preforming proper weapon balance.
I think the OP raises a couple of very valid points each of which stand independently on their own merits despite both applying to the TAR.
1) With the new skill system the diversity of the AR line makes the weapon group a more diverse/powerful choice than other weapon groups. I actually like how the AR line is right now due to that diversity but until the rest of the weapon lines provide the same degree of adaptability/diversity for their users the current AR set up will continue to break parity with the rest of the other weapon lines.
2) Damage.... this is a whole complex issue with many variables involved but the most appropriate place to start is the damage mods themselves. The stacking penalty on damage mods is either too weak or is not functioning, in either case it needs to be address. The ability to stack 4-5 damage mods is no less damaging to proper game balance than the old sharpshooter skill was. They both suffer from the same fundamental flaw, they provide a way to break the roles of gear in the game. Once something does that balance becomes drastically harder to find as the pro/con relationships intrinsic to internal weapon balance are blown apart. In short fix the damage mods before touching up the rest of it's stats then assess where to go from there.
0.02 ISK Cross |
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
741
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 03:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:In short fix the damage mods before touching up the rest of it's stats then assess where to go from there.
0.02 ISK Cross
I'd say damage mods should not be just a straight up damage increase, but instead be weapon type specific with different attributes.
i.e. a hybrid weapon mod increases ROF, and therefore boosting DPS, whereas energy weapons would have a heat sink to reduce heat build up, increasing DPS without guaranteeing the weapon can just burn through people faster, or a modded mass driver has a wider AOE.
Weapon mods currently seem rather uninspired. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
647
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 03:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Talos Alomar wrote:Cross Atu wrote:In short fix the damage mods before touching up the rest of it's stats then assess where to go from there.
0.02 ISK Cross I'd say damage mods should not be just a straight up damage increase, but instead be weapon type specific with different attributes. i.e. a hybrid weapon mod increases ROF, and therefore boosting DPS, whereas energy weapons would have a heat sink to reduce heat build up, increasing DPS without guaranteeing the weapon can just burn through people faster, or a modded mass driver has a wider AOE. Weapon mods currently seem rather uninspired. Uninspired and misleading. Look at how many weapons and turrets have had their turn with the nerf bat. Unless every weapon in the game was OP at the same time, damage mods have been warping the perspective of what made a weapon OP. |
Professormohawk
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
51
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 03:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
heres my suggest: create a DMR weapon system. a CQC rifle, that can reach out and touch someone. a |
Tankin Tarkus
Quafe Runners
2
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Posted - 2013.05.11 05:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
an idea is making multiple damage mods cause a conflict like some other modules(afterburners do this if i remember correctly) and maybe add a damage bonus to damage mods based on the level of the skill like say 1% extra damage added onto a damage mod per level so say the complex would then be 15% overall |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
650
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 05:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tankin Tarkus wrote:an idea is making multiple damage mods cause a conflict like some other modules(afterburners do this if i remember correctly) and maybe add a damage bonus to damage mods based on the level of the skill like say 1% extra damage added onto a damage mod per level so say the complex would then be 15% overall This!This!This!This!This!
Listen to this man CCP! |
DraC0X
843 Boot Camp
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 15:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
+1 TAC is leading to a lot of cheap kills from Afar, some people r just afraid of getting into ambush. Because the now there will be a TAC AR user pubstomping from FAR FAR FAR Away ;) just my two Cents. |
Draco Cerberus
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
36
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Posted - 2013.05.11 16:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
I rarely pub stomp with my TAC AR but find it is nice to be able to put some hurt to the guys sniping my team mates before I revive them. The TAC is not rapid fire no matter what it looks like when I get in CQC with you and my controllers will surely need replacing after a year or so from heavy use of the R1 button. At a time when all new weapons have been released I would say this may deserve more discussion but at this point it is the ONLY medium range weapon whereas there are Forge guns and Sniper rifles for long ranges, and HMG, SMGs regular ARs for short ranges. It has less than half the damage of the Sniper rifle and is as accurate as a regular AR. Seems pretty balanced to me. |
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Tankin Tarkus
Quafe Runners
5
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Posted - 2013.05.11 17:44:00 -
[21] - Quote
i believe regular AR's and assault hmg are more medium range weapon |
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
743
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 02:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote: Seems pretty balanced to me.
It is. I specced my alt into ARs so I could play around with it before making a post about the balance of the weapon. The only real issue I have with the weapon is that it makes the AR a 2-for-1 skill giving a player both a good medium range weapon and a good short range weapon for the price of one skill. All CCP needs to do is seperate the TacAR from the AR skill tree.
Ideally the AR variants would be separated into two different skill trees, the gallente Plasma carbine and the caldari gauss rifle.
Imagine if the scrambler rifle was just lumped into the LR skill tree. would that seem balanced? |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
703
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 02:29:00 -
[23] - Quote
Talos Alomar wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote: Seems pretty balanced to me. It is. I specced my alt into ARs so I could play around with it before making a post about the balance of the weapon. The only real issue I have with the weapon is that it makes the AR a 2-for-1 skill giving a player both a good medium range weapon and a good short range weapon for the price of one skill. All CCP needs to do is seperate the TacAR from the AR skill tree. Ideally the AR variants would be separated into two different skill trees, the gallente Plasma carbine and the caldari gauss rifle. Imagine if the scrambler rifle was just lumped into the LR skill tree. would that seem balanced? This! This! This! |
Chilled Pill
Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION
58
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Posted - 2013.05.12 12:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Make the Tac AR a scout only weapon. |
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
747
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 04:22:00 -
[25] - Quote
Chilled Pill wrote:Make the Tac AR a scout only weapon.
I'm not sure that'd fix much of anything. |
RedBleach LeSanglant
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
206
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 05:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
There cannot, should not, be an "only available with a certain class" weapon or module. There should be weapons that are better suited to some classes and not others but none should make a fit invalid. That makes every fit possible even if it is not plausible. Like a Heavy with nova knives and a cloak system. Allow it.
A suit with a Heavy weapon... that is a different discussion altogether, but all this discussion of limiting the classes to certain weapons or vice versa (speaking to ironwolf's proposals) is bungling the idea of versatility of Dust 514. If I can lift it I should be able to use it. If i have a suit I should be able to equip it. So, No logi only weapons, Scout only weapon, or modules or equipment. If you want to you should be able to use it - even if it seems ridiculous.
Shotgun heavy with sprint mods and knives - like a boss. Armor tanking logi with an smg - like a boss. Pounding face with a assault TAR - awesome. Play whatever you want. And yes there should be some sort of strength check for any soldier to carry a heavy weapon - as odd as it may be and with as many penalties that they might take it should be an option. |
Full Metal Kitten
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
273
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 05:53:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ok bros, I think we finally have an idea I can support. Separate the TAR into a different weapon class so AR is not a 2 for 1 special. I can dig it. |
KalOfTheRathi
Talon Strike Force LTD Orion Empire
449
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 05:56:00 -
[28] - Quote
RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:There cannot, should not, be an "only available with a certain class" weapon or module. There should be weapons that are better suited to some classes and not others but none should make a fit invalid. That makes every fit possible even if it is not plausible. Like a Heavy with nova knives and a cloak system. Allow it.
A suit with a Heavy weapon... that is a different discussion altogether, but all this discussion of limiting the classes to certain weapons or vice versa (speaking to ironwolf's proposals) is bungling the idea of versatility of Dust 514. If I can lift it I should be able to use it. If i have a suit I should be able to equip it. So, No logi only weapons, Scout only weapon, or modules or equipment. If you want to you should be able to use it - even if it seems ridiculous.
Shotgun heavy with sprint mods and knives - like a boss. Armor tanking logi with an smg - like a boss. Pounding face with a assault TAR - awesome. Play whatever you want. And yes there should be some sort of strength check for any soldier to carry a heavy weapon - as odd as it may be and with as many penalties that they might take it should be an option. What Uprising has ruined is the basic fun in the game.
Specifically one could try the laser rifle. Or the mass driver. You might love them or hate them. But you could afford to try them out. Maybe even have a Fit for sitting on the table top and lobbing mass driver rounds down below. Now, it just isn't possible to make any headway on anything Except your very specific, totally focused, specialty focused path.
Starting a new character to test something out is a waste as you cannot even get a suit or a decent gun to start with. Who wants to add two months of grinding on a test character to see if the overly expensive SP should be spent on a different item? I don't and I will never try it again.
And yes, my alt ran a Heavy with Nova Knives. It was a hoot and mostly a waste of SP, ISK and time. However, at the time it was the only thing withing my CPU/PG budget I could fit so I tried it. I have never been tempted to go back to Nova Knives again.
Those days are gone. Never to return. |
Valentine Crendre
ZionTCD Unclaimed.
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 08:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
Yes, Thankyou |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
179
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 10:46:00 -
[30] - Quote
I like it. ARs are the most diverse for the buck (and they also only require Light Weapon Op 1).
I also like the idea of more sophisticated weapon mods. A damage mod increasing RoF on a hybrid weapon... but adding an overheat-mechanic would be interesting for instance (kinda like the rail mods in Mass Effect 1). Similar options that provide drawbacks or affect different weapon types uniquely would be great for the gameplay. |
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Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
186
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:01:00 -
[31] - Quote
lol people are still arguing about a "fix".
the fix is simple, the gun has to be nerfed in ROF, dmg, accuracy and range.
the TAR is supposed to have more range over the regular AR but not to be better at everything and also better than weapons designed primary for higher ranges (I am looking at you LR)
stop arguing and deal with the fact that the TAR needs to be hit hard by the nerf hammer. |
Torr Wrath
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
226
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 15:52:00 -
[32] - Quote
Bump. |
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