DUST Search - Dedicated Logibros, Unite!

Iron Wolf Saber wrote:

RydogV wrote:

This fraking argument is getting to the point of redonkulous. You find me a Medic in any armed forces who would deploy to the hotzone without a proper rifle and then you can have my friggin AR.

Better yet...if you don't want me to carry a Light Weapon then how about no other class can carry equipment. Wait what's that? How will you rez your buddy? What if you run out of ammo? Well I guess you just have to wait for me to come bee-bopping along to get it for you. Ohhhhh wait...too bad...I just got killed by that Militia Assault N00b with his badass Militia Assault Rifle. I would have shot him but you know, my SMG just couldn't reach that far. Just sit tight and I will respawn and try and cross this open danger zone again. You will be alright...RIGHT?!

Yeah so we want to get real role specific. Well I guess we should not allow any other class to carry equipment, except the Logi. Of course the only class that can carry a Sniper Rifle is the Scout. And of course Heavies can only carry a Forge Gun or HMG...no Light Weapons for you either pal. Doesn't that all just sound like a wicked good time.

Or maybe...just maybe this game is all about dealing with the potential of different situations. Maybe your particular fitting SHOULDN'T be designed to take down every Merc you meet in a dark alley. Sometimes, just sometimes, you will be bested because your suit does not stand up well against every weapon in the game...or your weapon doesn't do well against those particular defensive loadouts. That is life...and war. So quit your frakin' whining about these mythical Logi/Assault/Super Mercs...move out and draw fire.

Once upon a time when professional armies fought each other, Combat medics where clearly designated and marked and where not to be shot as they where non-combative and shooting one on purpose was a war crime, however if they pick up a weapon they lose all protections.

However in these days, when fighting against illegal combatants (thus not subject to prisoner of war rules and are in violation of the Geneva convention entirely and are supposed to do 90 days in jail and 90,000 USD fine ) they just basically say screw the Geneva convention and shoot everyone equally. So these days most soldiers and medics are distinguishable outside the fact medics are trained in field wound treatment. Overall that is their primary training weapon wield is secondary on their list of skills. The medics are very reliant on the soldiers they're helping to protect them and to help direct their combat ability during fights if nobody is injured yet. Yes they are armed these days but I am quite sure if a rifle man and a medic where to have shooting contest most medics would lose.

Average load out of a US soldier is about 90 lbs in equipment. Majority of that equipment is considered 'bare minimum' and really doesnt make one soldier any better than the specialist soldiers such as EOD, Comms and various other setups.

Medics are not snipers, they're not riflemen, they're not explosive disposal, they are defiantly not marines.


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Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 125	Posted - 2013.05.10 04:46:00 - [1] - Quote This is beyond stupid. The second logis start killing people, everyone cries nerf. Singling out the Caldari is silly as well, from High + Low + Equips standpoint, Gallente, Caldari, and Minmatar all have 12 slots at proto. Amarr has 9.... for some reason. Not having a sidearm is already an issue, having two doesn't solve it, it just guarantees that everyone in the game will have a range advantage on logis. That neatly puts them all on the AR stomping menu, because no sidearm has equivalent range. That's not a balance, that's just handing assaults and scouts the heads of logis. The problem is assaults/heavies have no compelling reason to use their own suits. The suits are the same as basic frames - slots, hp, cpu, pg. Why bother skilling into assault for minor bonuses? They need compelling reasons to use their specializations - a shield recharge bonus to the exact same suit isn't enough. The bonuses/suits for scout/assault/sentinel need to be looked at. Logis are a separate issue, the fact that people can ignore equipment slots to use the PG/CPU to fill the increased number of slots may seem exploitative, but it's just side-product of the other suits not having much to offer. As a logistics, the extra slots can go towards EWAR functions and more. They give logistics freedom to tweak things like hacking speed and detection to help the team. You know - perform an actual logistics role. The extra PG/CPU is necessary to fit those slots, and hold that equipment. Logistics already have the greatest weapon restriction in the game, every other class can carry at least two. Maybe the runaway slot issue suggests that the diminishing returns on damage mods should be higher? That ARs need to be looked at? Something that isn't pants-on-head stupid as... "Give em two pistols.. lol, then I can duvolle tactical them at range and not have to worry!" If assault suits were beefier, or had better bonuses, this wouldn't be coming up. Logistics are supposed to be the slot-laden class. It makes them expensive to fit, expensive to level, and go forbid you get killed by a guy that sank 12-million SP and filled up slots with combat-oriented proto. It's a callback to the flexibility of the logi class. Logis could stack damage mods pre-uprsing too. The difference was assaults were beefier. CCP has made a conscious decision to try to make people harder to kill, to get rid of those 1-second encounters. They made guns weaker, and they made suits stronger. Logis bonuses are mostly about not dying. If you're the logi, you squad won't be repping you - so you get an armor repair bonus. Caldari have little armor, and so they have a shield bonus. Even maxed - it's one flux grenade away from a naked logi. The solution here is looking at the other specs, give people a reason to play their specs. Sentinels get a bonus to feedback damage? That's like a bonus for to protect against your stupidity. Assaults probably need increased base hp on their suits (maybe going higher from tier to tier) and bonus reviews. That's what makes sense in context here.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 135	Posted - 2013.05.10 06:19:00 - [2] - Quote Den-tredje Baron wrote: Logi Bro wrote: snip I think making caldari assaults carry the extender buff instead will just make them walking shield tanks but very nice idea and much much more appreciated compared to the only sidearms solution I still think though that the caldari logi even with the extender buff removed is still a bit out of it's "zone". Make it have 5 highs and 3 lows and 3 equipment slots. It doesn't need that many lows because it's already "fast" as it shouldn't be putting any major armor mods on and maybe that low can then in some way be given to the amarr logi who is also out of it's "zone" but that's more because of lacking slots. I would really like too see gall logis keep their +1 passive armor rep as it suddenly feels like armor tanking is viable. Often the logi finds himself left to self repairing. Caldari logis can pop into cover and pretty quickly regain the majority of their tank while armor is still kind of a struggle. Ohh and refiddling with assaults is definitely needed as the overall bonus for assaults is not helping gall assault at all It's zone is a shield-tanking logi with a lot of slots. Logis have always had more slots than assaults. Caldari has the same number of High + Low + Equipment as Gallente and Minmatar.... they all have 12. The Caldari flips the Galletente Armor/Shield stats, exactly. They work as inverses to each other. The Caldari and Amarr also slotted as "fewer equip slots" than Gallente/Minmatar. The bonus on Gallente to equipment I guess is supposed to reflect the fact they "value human life" or some such from the description, so they carry more support stuff. Caldari support carry slightly, and focus slightly more on protecting themselves instead - because they're greedy corporatists I guess. Dropping a low slot on the Caldari would reduce it's sum of slots below Gallente/Minmatar. Let's not forget, Minmatar have 4High and 4Low, Gallente have 3High and 5Low.. and both have 4 equip slots. I don't know how you think taking a low slot from the Caldari to give to the Amarr would work.. because of armor. You don't need to move slots between races... that's silly and unnecessary. They can be balanced on their own grounds. Second, low slots are not just armor slots. There are many many things that can go in low slots, stamina, hacking, profile dampening, etc. These slots are useful for logistics, they can aid in detection, hacking, and key support roles. That's why all the logis have a lot of slots (Amarr aside) they all have 12 total.. because all the slots can be useful for making a flexible logistics role. Reducing high slots to shields and low slots to armor because that's what tanks do does a disservice to the logi role as a whole. This discussion would be much better focused on finding ways to make assault specs and suits, scout specs and suits, and sentinel specs and suits more useful - rather than logi-nerf ideas. Logis support the team, that's true, but they are combat units, units that do directly benefit from being able to survive better (like EVERY unit). Assaults are supposed to be faster and naturally beefier, this can be achieved without screwing with logi slots. The suggested bonuses like nanite hive capacity, rep tool, and fitting reqs would do to the logi what's happened to the assault now. People would just try to work with one equipment slot. Logis already have to skill into many many things to be effective equipment-wise, and this is a burden that assaults don't have. This includes things like fitting reqs to use the modules and equipment. Fitting req bonuses are of scant value because they're redundant with core skills, and at the high end you effectively have a bonus that helps you very little by the time you maxed your core. Dying less is ALWAYS useful, whereas slightly more ammo is only useful to teammates that stay in the vicinity of a nanohive (infrequent unless area is contested) and a logi with proto hives would find this a waste. Armor reps are interesting, but it again gives a bonus to a very specific role element - and punishes the traditionally very flexible logi for not adhering to a very specific equipment ideal. It's a mass of worthless tripe basically. CCP managed to make skilling into logistics: A) Necessary... because you can't get more slots anywhere else... B) Appealing, because skill like dying less are universally useful CCP managed to make skilling into Sentinel A) A bad idea, because the passive rewards people that don't know how to operate their gun B) A bad idea, the slots on basic suits are better because they allow you stack more damage C) A bad idea, because it's a huge waste of SP considering you can do everything but get a slightly useful bonus by using Basic The is an important contrast, because these specialty skills are 10x Many things in the game might be worth it, but is a slight shield recharge gain worth maxing a 10x skill? Or a melee bonus? Non-logistics neither got well-differentiated suits, nor compelling reasons to use their specialties. That's the real issue.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 136	Posted - 2013.05.10 06:38:00 - [3] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: RydogV wrote: This fraking argument is getting to the point of redonkulous. You find me a Medic in any armed forces who would deploy to the hotzone without a proper rifle and then you can have my friggin AR. Better yet...if you don't want me to carry a Light Weapon then how about no other class can carry equipment. Wait what's that? How will you rez your buddy? What if you run out of ammo? Well I guess you just have to wait for me to come bee-bopping along to get it for you. Ohhhhh wait...too bad...I just got killed by that Militia Assault N00b with his badass Militia Assault Rifle. I would have shot him but you know, my SMG just couldn't reach that far. Just sit tight and I will respawn and try and cross this open danger zone again. You will be alright...RIGHT?! Yeah so we want to get real role specific. Well I guess we should not allow any other class to carry equipment, except the Logi. Of course the only class that can carry a Sniper Rifle is the Scout. And of course Heavies can only carry a Forge Gun or HMG...no Light Weapons for you either pal. Doesn't that all just sound like a wicked good time. Or maybe...just maybe this game is all about dealing with the potential of different situations. Maybe your particular fitting SHOULDN'T be designed to take down every Merc you meet in a dark alley. Sometimes, just sometimes, you will be bested because your suit does not stand up well against every weapon in the game...or your weapon doesn't do well against those particular defensive loadouts. That is life...and war. So quit your frakin' whining about these mythical Logi/Assault/Super Mercs...move out and draw fire. Once upon a time when professional armies fought each other, Combat medics where clearly designated and marked and where not to be shot as they where non-combative and shooting one on purpose was a war crime, however if they pick up a weapon they lose all protections. However in these days, when fighting against illegal combatants (thus not subject to prisoner of war rules and are in violation of the Geneva convention entirely and are supposed to do 90 days in jail and 90,000 USD fine ) they just basically say screw the Geneva convention and shoot everyone equally. So these days most soldiers and medics are distinguishable outside the fact medics are trained in field wound treatment. Overall that is their primary training weapon wield is secondary on their list of skills. The medics are very reliant on the soldiers they're helping to protect them and to help direct their combat ability during fights if nobody is injured yet. Yes they are armed these days but I am quite sure if a rifle man and a medic where to have shooting contest most medics would lose. Average load out of a US soldier is about 90 lbs in equipment. Majority of that equipment is considered 'bare minimum' and really doesnt make one soldier any better than the specialist soldiers such as EOD, Comms and various other setups. Medics are not snipers, they're not riflemen, they're not explosive disposal, they are defiantly not marines. Two things: Logistics aren't just medics, they're meant to be flexible and perform other roles. Combat medics neither wear the geneva convention armband nor go unarmed now. That means yellow suits are asinine (as if we needed to spell out that giving the enemy color-coded intelligence for their convenience was a bad idea). Combat medics now often carry a field rifle and/or a sidearm. Reference is here: Quote: With a combat unit, they function as a member of an infantry platoon up until the point that one of their comrades is wounded. Therefore, the Medic carries basically what a Rifleman or any other soldier carries. His Basic Equipment is usually: An M4 rifle and in some units an M9 pistol. A MOLLE Vest with a full "combat load," being (most often) 210 rounds for the M-4/M-16 rifle. An IBA or Interceptor Body Armor, now being phased out in favor for the newer IOTV; The Army Combat Uniform; An ACH, or Advanced Combat Helmet. So, logistics aren't just medics, but medics are fully armed now anyway.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 137	Posted - 2013.05.10 07:18:00 - [4] - Quote Den-tredje Baron wrote: snip You're wrong. It DOES function as a Logi. In fact, nothing else CAN function as a Logi. So, yes, it does that. It happens to also be acceptable at assault. My response to this matter is generally that assaults(and sentinels/scouts) need rebalance, not logis. You can fix the balance issue without sacrificing the combat effectiveness of the logi. Or this from above: It's zone is a shield-tanking logi with a lot of slots. Logis have always had more slots than assaults. Caldari has the same number of High + Low + Equipment as Gallente and Minmatar.... they all have 12. The Caldari flips the Galletente Armor/Shield stats, exactly. They work as inverses to each other. The Caldari and Amarr also slotted as "fewer equip slots" than Gallente/Minmatar. The bonus on Gallente to equipment I guess is supposed to reflect the fact they "value human life" or some such from the description, so they carry more support stuff. Caldari support carry slightly less, and focus slightly more on protecting themselves instead - because they're greedy corporatists I guess. Dropping a low slot on the Caldari would reduce it's sum of slots below Gallente/Minmatar. Let's not forget, Minmatar have 4High and 4Low, Gallente have 3High and 5Low.. and both have 4 equip slots. [...] Second, low slots are not just armor slots. There are many many things that can go in low slots, stamina, hacking, profile dampening, etc. These slots are useful for logistics, they can aid in detection, hacking, and key support roles. That's why all the logis have a lot of slots (Amarr aside it seems - I think Caldari assault has more) they all have 12 total.. because all the slots can be useful for making a flexible logistics role. Reducing high slots to shields and low slots to armor because that's what tanks do does a disservice to the logi role as a whole. This discussion would be much better focused on finding ways to make assault specs and suits, scout specs and suits, and sentinel specs and suits more useful - rather than logi-nerf ideas. Logis support the team, that's true, but they are combat units, units that do directly benefit from being able to survive better (like EVERY unit). Assaults are supposed to be faster and naturally beefier, this can be achieved without screwing with logi slots. In would make more sense to have the Assault be naturally beefier than give it more slots to do so. The logi can be relatively weaker at based, and be forced to make judgement calls and manage PG/CPU to achieve defense, attack, and support roles. The suggested bonuses like nanite hive capacity, rep tool, and fitting reqs would do to the logi what's happened to the assault now. They're super specific and generally outclassed by existing skills - they come across as unnecessary or not worth it (like current assault bonuses). Logis already have to skill into many many things to be effective equipment-wise, and this is a burden that assaults don't have. This includes things like fitting reqs to use the modules and equipment. Fitting req bonuses are of scant value because they're redundant with core skills, and at the high end you effectively have a bonus that helps you very little by the time you maxed your core. Dying less is ALWAYS useful, whereas slightly more ammo is only useful to teammates that stay in the vicinity of a nanohive (infrequent unless area is contested) and a logi with proto hives would find this a waste. Armor reps are interesting, but it again gives a bonus to a very specific role element - and punishes the traditionally very flexible logi for not adhering to a very specific equipment ideal. It's a mass of worthless tripe basically. CCP managed to make skilling into logistics: A) Necessary... because you can't get more slots anywhere else... B) Appealing, because skill like dying less are universally useful CCP managed to make skilling into Sentinel A) A bad idea, because the passive rewards people that don't know how to operate their gun B) A bad idea, the slots on basic suits are better because they allow you stack more damage C) A bad idea, because it's a huge waste of SP considering you can do everything but get a slightly useful bonus by using Basic The is an important contrast, because these specialty skills are 10x Many things in the game might be worth it, but is a slight shield recharge gain worth maxing a 10x skill? Or a melee bonus? Non-logistics neither got well-differentiated suits, nor compelling reasons to use their specialties. That's the real issue.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 137	Posted - 2013.05.10 07:34:00 - [5] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Second problem is, even with the absence of a meta game other suits can easily be buffed to compensate. Like everyone said, the assaults are crap, heavy got nerfed, and the scout supposedly got nerfed too. Those are 3 classes right there that could easily be buffed and last time I checked each one was supposed to bring something different to the table and can easily be counters to each other without one being considered OP if they're adjusted properly in that perfect imbalance. This is where I'm coming from. The logistics suits feel like the only place where they differentiated the races well, and managed to make the specialization appealing. Every other spec shares stats with an identical basic suit, and most have horrible or middling passives. It's not that the logi build ideas they made are bad - they made all the other roles seem bland in comparison. Logis also HAVE to make the leap, or they can't function, period. There are many many ways they can improve the other suits and passives that don't involve pigeon-holing Logis or nerf-batting them. People get excited about things like "armor rep bonus" on the Amarr logi, or the shield extender on the Caldari because it sounds cool and full of possibilities. They sound powerful. They sound worth 10x. People look at the Sentinel's overheat-damage reduction... and it's just... "why?"... and the slot loadout is worse. That's the real problem here. People want their later tier skills to be representative of their increased strength and growth. Getting something like "More nanites in hives" for 5 ranks of a 10x skill would engender the same reaction in me as heavies have when they see a weapon overheat damage reduction.