DUST Search - [Feedback] heavies and percieved roles

Rynx Sinfar wrote:

The general opinion of Heavy seems to be that it should be able to kill better. The only difference you seem to want is more armor and less speed. You want to keep the big damage gun too.

The first part is taken care of by plates. The slowest assault could handle 2 complex plates and still be .3 m/s faster walk speed than heavy. You're shield will be low but your using the hi slots for complex damage mods you need to get the other thing you want.

I've said it before, you're describing an assault with heavier armor and a big gun (technically coming as Commando I believe).

Before update everyone complained heavies were being eaten by proto ARs. The problem I see is that the old heavy had just enough assault to be a gimped assault. Everyone was upset it was a gimped assault in disguise. Now they removed the rest of the assault and brought it into it's intended role.

I'm having 0 issues adapting and the other heavies in my corp have talked about the adjustment.

I can understand it no longer being fun if it isn't what you want, but I like it and there isn't another class that can do it. You described assault, so if you want assault play assault and don't take away a unique role from others.

That or wait for new heavy frames.

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Breakin Stuff Goonfeet 831	Posted - 2013.05.08 23:01:00 - [1] - Quote This is not a rant thread, nor a "CCP hates heavies" thread. This is a plain explanation of what I see as the problems with heavies right now. This is a request for CCP to review the feelings of the players as i have found them, and the facts that I can confirm through experience or number crunching. The most important factor is most dedicated heavy players feel that running heavies right now is not fun. After reviewing a lot of people's opinions I'm finding I am not the only one who feels this way. I am also not in the minority. It's not a matter of not wanting to adapt to a new playstyle. It's a lot of us feel punished for finding ways to succeed at a brutally inefficient and SP intensive dropsuit set. Heavies being forced into a purely defensive niche is not fun to play, there is no fulfillment, and bluntly heavies do not have the firepower to fill the role except in an AV fashion. Removing options from people rather than allowing them the freedom to adapt their playstyles inevitably only creates anger among the playerbase, especially when you remove capabilities they have grown to depend on to remain competitive. I had a long conversation with someone who basically told me to HTFU even after admitting he abandoned heavies immediately upon learning the new slot layouts and nerfs to the HMG. This is fairly typical, and I'm having a hard time finding someone willing to say it's not an issue unless they're trying to be deliberately antagonistic and troll. Most of us joined DUST 514 because we LOVED the customization options. Now options are being taken away for gameplay styles. It begins with the heavy suits. Right now playing an HMG is not fun. Sitting on an objective waiting for the enemy to come to you is not fun. And the HMG doesn't have the effective range or damage output to deter anyone, much less the group blobs we've seen over the last two days, from assaulting an objective. I must respectfully submit that the new direction CCP is pushing for heavies is failing because it's not fun for anyone but the assaults attacking them. Disclaimer: I'm glad you pulled sharpshooter. it created an artificial disparity in weapon ranges that punished new players for not being able to cope with vets lobbing shots outside their max range while still being optimal. Loss of 2 damage module slots: -20% damage bonus Loss of Weaponry 5: -10% damage bonus Reduction of damage by more than 20% after the above heavy reductions have occurred. reduction of range. All of the above things were absolutely required to maintain any pretense of parity with prototype assault suits running duvolle Assault Rifles and even so Duels between duvolles and Boundless HMGs resulted in dead HMGs as often as not. CCP frame has stated that the projections show 30 meters to be firmly within the optimal range of a heavy machinegun. I absolutely believe this statement, because it fits what I have seen. But what is not being taken into account is a technical term called cone of fire. the more a target fits within the reticle of the HMG, the more bullets hit, the more damage is done. At 0-20 meters after spool up you can put it on someone's torso and slam in excess of 75% of bullets hit easily. At 20-30 meters this phenomenon drops sharply as the silhouette of the target fills less of the reticle, and because the silhouette filling is smaller it means the amount of hits are proportionately lower. this can result in anywhere between 40-60% hit loss between 20 and 30 meters depending on the hitbox of the target. machinegunners call this "cone of fire" in real life as the vibrations of the gun cause the bullets to scatter in a cone as you move further out. The HMG bullet animation also follows the pattern. But the further away you get, the more likely you are fully within the cone, but the percentage of bullets that will hit drop sharply. You introduced the mechanic into DUST 514 whether intentional or not, CCP. And we have to take it into account when discussing any changes to the heavy machinegun. I only spotted it because I was a Heavy Machinegunner for a few years of my life, and I thought it was an awesome thing to add to the game. I still think it is awesome. I believe upping the base damage is the solution. I believe tightening the cone of fire would be a catastrophically bad idea because surviving heavies depends on that dispersion at range. The dispersion is what gives the HMG suppression, the damage gives heavies killing power up close where the dispersion is minimal. I think CCP Devs went the opposite direction and constricted the fights to close quarters by reducing ranges except for snipers. I'll let someone else chew on that problem. Finally I will address the movement reductions that bring the new shield tanked heavy suits in line with the old armor tanked heavy suits. i'm cool with it. i know a lot of people are not, but with a bit of patience and cunning you can be a viable door-kicker even at slow fatsuit speeds. it's how I ran Chromosome from start to finish because I prefer the armored buffer tank over the more speedy shield tank. I found it more survivable. Bluntly i feel that the heavies need to maintain the mobility problems to maintain some sort of parity should CCP decide to rebuff the HMG. After all the Sentinel is supposed to be a defensive platform by CCP vision. But i believe that you should be able to adapt it to other roles. I also believe you should be prepared for accepting the downsides of doing so. Thank you for your time, and I hope you find this thread useful.
Dexter Peabody Goonfeet 43	Posted - 2013.05.08 23:02:00 - [2] - Quote heavies are the worst, remove them from the game. SORRY BREAKIN NO CORP SUPPORT FOR YOU
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet 831	Posted - 2013.05.08 23:08:00 - [3] - Quote Dexter Peabody wrote: heavies are the worst, remove them from the game. SORRY BREAKIN NO CORP SUPPORT FOR YOU DIAF Dex. No one loves you, hehehehe
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet 833	Posted - 2013.05.09 01:10:00 - [4] - Quote Update: stacking penalties on Damage mods has not been fixed. Assault/logi can stack 4-5 complex mods on proto suits. HMG cannot compete at any level with this.
Fuzzy Jello Goonfeet 3	Posted - 2013.05.09 01:42:00 - [5] - Quote Dexter Peabody wrote: heavies are the worst, remove them from the game. Sadly this is the truth. I will admit that I was very angry with CCP Remnant's comments about Heavy class. I used to be a Heavy in Chromosome and loved it. Now it is a complete waste of time and SP. All my :effort: down the drain. Having a purely defensive class in the current Uprising model is counter intuitive and not very useful. I guarantee that an Assault-class will out perform a Heavy on defense. CCP, You cannot deny the truth behind the following statements: "Heavies used to be fun in Chromosome and after Uprising they are not fun." "There is no reason, no motivation and no return on investment on being a Heavy. " "The Heavy class is a waste of SP."
Chinduko KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 43	Posted - 2013.05.09 01:58:00 - [6] - Quote The OP suggested that heavies simply adapted to their weapons and suit. I never thought of that. It's the same way the scout adapted to their speed and the shotgun which can destroy a heavy. It seems that when suits like the heavy and scout do adapt which have extreme strengths and weaknesses, they are referred to as overpowered since they actually become effective. The way it was before was great. We respected the shotgun scout and the HMG heavy unless you had a proto assault suit which was the strongest. And yes, it is ridiculous how much SP is required just to unlock the Forge and HMG. CCP truly does dislike the heavy class.
Red Dot 24601-HA S.e.V.e.N. Gentlemen's Agreement 72	Posted - 2013.05.09 02:01:00 - [7] - Quote I played as a heavy mostly in chromosome as well. It was fun even with the slowness and vulnerability on the open maps. When I read what they were doing to the heavies in uprising I decided to go assualt. It is a shame because the heavy gave the game a great variety of play styles. Hopefully CCP will address the heavy issue.
Bazookah Tooth Ghost Planet Syndicate 0	Posted - 2013.05.09 02:02:00 - [8] - Quote Lets not group the name Heavy under the HMG standard. I am just as aggravated as you are that the nerfed the HMG, but stick an assault rifle on it, even militia and watch the difference. the Amarr heavy frame A/1 series can stack two complex light damage multipliers. have fun picking out people who thought they could take down a Heavy packing the same assault firepower
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 568	Posted - 2013.05.09 02:05:00 - [9] - Quote Want to know how bad heavies are right now. I was in the complex hacking point B when a heavy came in from the room near the CRU. He went full auto, but I was just outside his range. I pulled out my SMG and put the poor guy out of his misery as an act of mercy. Then I squatted down near his corpse, not to teabag, but to take a knee in pity. In the time all that took ~8 people died on the map, all with ARs. What happened to weapon diversity?
Chinduko KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 43	Posted - 2013.05.09 02:09:00 - [10] - Quote Bazookah Tooth wrote: Lets not group the name Heavy under the HMG standard. I am just as aggravated as you are that the nerfed the HMG, but stick an assault rifle on it, even militia and watch the difference. the Amarr heavy frame A/1 series can stack two complex light damage multipliers. have fun picking out people who thought they could take down a Heavy packing the same assault firepower It does work well with an assault rifle. Since even the skinweave heavy suit has high cpu and pg, fitting a Duvolle is no problem with complex shield extender and complex armor repair. I found defending a static position much more effective since the AR has better range and the damage is respectable enough to make players search for cover.

Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 583	Posted - 2013.05.09 02:22:00 - [11] - Quote The general opinion of Heavy seems to be that it should be able to kill better. The only difference you seem to want is more armor and less speed. You want to keep the big damage gun too. The first part is taken care of by plates. The slowest assault could handle 2 complex plates and still be .3 m/s faster walk speed than heavy. You're shield will be low but your using the hi slots for complex damage mods you need to get the other thing you want. I've said it before, you're describing an assault with heavier armor and a big gun (technically coming as Commando I believe). Before update everyone complained heavies were being eaten by proto ARs. The problem I see is that the old heavy had just enough assault to be a gimped assault. Everyone was upset it was a gimped assault in disguise. Now they removed the rest of the assault and brought it into it's intended role. I'm having 0 issues adapting and the other heavies in my corp have talked about the adjustment. I can understand it no longer being fun if it isn't what you want, but I like it and there isn't another class that can do it. You described assault, so if you want assault play assault and don't take away a unique role from others. That or wait for new heavy frames.
Straum Arjn Sand Mercenary Corps Inc. 3	Posted - 2013.05.09 02:25:00 - [12] - Quote I would just like to point out, CCP, that it seems you did a great job on the Heavy dropsuits, but now heavys are using Forge guns or ARs. I see a fundemental problem with that. As stated previously in this thread and others, the HMG is not fun, it is frutrating. Balance is an issue, but when a weapon stops being fun and then dips into the frustrating territory, it can no longer be considered "balanced." Balance is about having fun. I personally think a HMG should be able to down 4-6 red dots in one drum, of course that is to say 4-6 red dots in the HMG's optimal range and not a lot of space to move (or a team the HMG is piggy-backing off of). That was when the HMG was fun. Lone-wolfing with a HMG was suicide last build, but with a competent team or a decent choke point the HMG was the weapon it was supposed to be, fire support. I could not percieve a single reason for nerfing it at all, even with the range increases on the other weapons (which was super frustrating but nothing I personally couldn't get over, I was positive in my KD more often than not and anyone on the forum can tell you I'm not phenomenal, just alright. No one knows my name, I'm not some Alldin Khan so this is from an "average" player.). I am not angry, just saddened. I would love to hear some numbers or an explanation to make sense of it, at least to tell the players who dropped to play ARs (like me) why.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet 840	Posted - 2013.05.09 02:29:00 - [13] - Quote Rynx Sinfar wrote: The general opinion of Heavy seems to be that it should be able to kill better. The only difference you seem to want is more armor and less speed. You want to keep the big damage gun too. The first part is taken care of by plates. The slowest assault could handle 2 complex plates and still be .3 m/s faster walk speed than heavy. You're shield will be low but your using the hi slots for complex damage mods you need to get the other thing you want. I've said it before, you're describing an assault with heavier armor and a big gun (technically coming as Commando I believe). Before update everyone complained heavies were being eaten by proto ARs. The problem I see is that the old heavy had just enough assault to be a gimped assault. Everyone was upset it was a gimped assault in disguise. Now they removed the rest of the assault and brought it into it's intended role. I'm having 0 issues adapting and the other heavies in my corp have talked about the adjustment. I can understand it no longer being fun if it isn't what you want, but I like it and there isn't another class that can do it. You described assault, so if you want assault play assault and don't take away a unique role from others. That or wait for new heavy frames. the suit's fine. the gun sucks. it is worthless. and the commando suit is now going to be lighter, faster and carry two light weapons, no heavy weapons according to teh Devs. I'll stick to slow, can't dodge, takes a beating and people are reluctant to engage me in my front arc.


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