DUST Search - Aiming is A MASSIVE PROBLEM

gabriel login wrote:

This is off-point a bit, but still has something to do with aiming. One of the biggest problems with the aim is the gameplay itself; CCP, you reward people for jumping all over the place and strafing all over the place as if this was Unreal Tournament. It's ok there, it's not meant to be a game where you think, but here you can jump 4ft in the air, left, right, forwards and backwards, while strafing left and right like this is riverdance (go youtube it, CCP, just put guns in their hands and thats what we do).

I think if nothing was done with the aiming but you made a small change to the height we jump, maybe only let us jump forwards and lower the strafing speed, then people would be able to keep a track on someone. But its ok CCP, for a team-based game you do reward a lot of BS gameplay that in the long run just makes the game feel wrong. So CCP I ask you: Is this a team-based game where what you do can get you and your squad killed? Or is it the game that rewards people for being able to jump and strafe and bounce all over the place.

Very few shooters out there reward this kind of gameplay and I don't think you should either CCP. It's time to make people understand that if you get in a bad spot jumping and strafing and bouncing like a fool will not save you, and you should have thought about that before going in there guns blazing, thinking you're the man. Anyone that stays this needs to say is depending on it to much. CCP, just watch all the hate this gets as what I am saying is true, and some people will fight for it, but in the end with it gone aiming will be better, team play will be better, the way people fight will be better. Just something for you to look into CCP, I know it will help.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2840	Posted - 2013.05.09 08:02:00 - [1] - Quote TheBlob95 B wrote: Is this a KB/M thread, because aiming has gotten SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER on the DS3. No it hasn't. Aim Assist off causes MASSIVE problems for some people, while having it on is game-breaking for others. In my case, it's Aim Assist off that's the problem. If I don't have it on, then when someone enters about a 5m range, I lose all ability to aim precisely. Attempting a small precise turn when there's a nearby enemy and Aim Assist is turned on results in almost a 90 degree instant jump in perspective, EVEN AT 0 SENSITIVITY. Also, there's acceleration, which for some players is preferred, but which should NEVER be forced. There's no option to reduce or disable it, and it's quite heavy-handed, and doesn't respond the way turn acceleration works in most FPS games. Requiring players to turn for a period of time before reaching speed ISN'T ideal for everyone, and having the option of turn SCALING where the amount of pressure on the stick determines speed is the control option I've been asking for since I first started here. If you're used to having acceleration instead of scaling, then the current build is fine - still not great, but it feels good. If you want a scaled turn rate where you have direct control instead of an acceleration algorithm, then you have problems. Mouse control is far worse, but both schemes are fail.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2842	Posted - 2013.05.09 09:15:00 - [2] - Quote greyarea67 wrote: Maybe m/kb aiming broke when they improved aiming for the DS3? What they "fixed" was the addition of aim acceleration. This is, for many console FPS players, a good improvement. With a mouse, it means that if you move your mouse at a constant speed, you don't turn at a constant speed. They applied acceleration to mouse aim as well as sixaxis. And neither has the option to reduce it or turn it off, when both should be able to do so.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2844	Posted - 2013.05.09 10:12:00 - [3] - Quote Sete Clifton wrote: Deadzone and input lag could also be an issue, though to be honest it doesn't really feel like it's either of those two. There's slight input lag with sixaxis controls, it's MUCH worse on mouse aim (I've tested both, but haven't used Move controls yet). Deadzone is definitely HUGELY improved from previous builds. But there's still barely any scaling from a tiny nudge to a full-force flick of the right stick on the controller. The angle at which you turn the stick doesn't have enough influence on your turn speed.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2845	Posted - 2013.05.09 11:52:00 - [4] - Quote gabriel login wrote: This is off-point a bit, but still has something to do with aiming. One of the biggest problems with the aim is the gameplay itself; CCP, you reward people for jumping all over the place and strafing all over the place as if this was Unreal Tournament. It's ok there, it's not meant to be a game where you think, but here you can jump 4ft in the air, left, right, forwards and backwards, while strafing left and right like this is riverdance (go youtube it, CCP, just put guns in their hands and thats what we do). I think if nothing was done with the aiming but you made a small change to the height we jump, maybe only let us jump forwards and lower the strafing speed, then people would be able to keep a track on someone. But its ok CCP, for a team-based game you do reward a lot of BS gameplay that in the long run just makes the game feel wrong. So CCP I ask you: Is this a team-based game where what you do can get you and your squad killed? Or is it the game that rewards people for being able to jump and strafe and bounce all over the place. Very few shooters out there reward this kind of gameplay and I don't think you should either CCP. It's time to make people understand that if you get in a bad spot jumping and strafing and bouncing like a fool will not save you, and you should have thought about that before going in there guns blazing, thinking you're the man. Anyone that stays this needs to say is depending on it to much. CCP, just watch all the hate this gets as what I am saying is true, and some people will fight for it, but in the end with it gone aiming will be better, team play will be better, the way people fight will be better. Just something for you to look into CCP, I know it will help. Firstly, fixed that for you. And now I need codeine. That was painful. I'll be back later with a reply that confirms that you're not just terrible at English, but are also terrible at game design. Your post was bad, and you should feel bad. I don't think I've told anyone this before, but please go biomass yourself. Thanks. NOTE: There was one sentence that I couldn't make enough sense of to actually translate even into the semblance of English I've managed to assemble with the rest of the post. This sentence remains in its original state, but has been italicised.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2853	Posted - 2013.05.09 13:01:00 - [5] - Quote gabriel login wrote: thanks for fixing it up but you did not need to be an ass about it Actually, yeah I did. I wasn't kidding about it causing me physical pain. I also wasn't kidding about the part in italics being too far from a semblance of English for me to be able to create a coherent sentence out of it. And now, it's time to REPLY to the post. gabriel login wrote: This is off-point a bit, but still has something to do with aiming. One of the biggest problems with the aim is the gameplay itself; CCP, you reward people for jumping all over the place and strafing all over the place as if this was Unreal Tournament. It's ok there, it's not meant to be a game where you think, but here you can jump 4ft in the air, left, right, forwards and backwards, while strafing left and right like this is riverdance (go youtube it, CCP, just put guns in their hands and thats what we do). Unreal Tournament, most of the Quake series, the Halo games, a few other FPS games and a lot of third-person shooters are built around a system of high-health-low-damage game mechanics. These mechanics produce a skill-based environment where evasion and aim are critical skills, and DUST follows the mechanics of those games more than most modern military shooters. This has been the case through every single build, including the current one. Devaluing the purpose of the game wouldn't magically make the broken aim mecahnics in the current build less broken. It would make targets easier to track by ruining other mechanics instead of fixing the problems. Anyone with even the vaguest hint of competence will tell you that when you have a choice between fixing something, and breaking something else so the already-broken thing doesn't look as bad, the latter option is what we refer to as "stupid". Quote: I think if nothing was done with the aiming but you made a small change to the height we jump, maybe only let us jump forwards and lower the strafing speed, then people would be able to keep a track on someone. But its ok CCP, for a team-based game you do reward a lot of BS gameplay that in the long run just makes the game feel wrong. So CCP I ask you: Is this a team-based game where what you do can get you and your squad killed? Or is it the game that rewards people for being able to jump and strafe and bounce all over the place. Those above-referenced games allowed - in almost every case - infinite sprinting or nearly so, and no restrictions on repeated jumping. Most of them also allowed full movement control while you're in the air. DUST has neither of these advantages for the player focusing on mobility, meaning that with good aim, you can easily track the pre-determined path your target will be taking, solidly landing hits on them until they land. If someone is "bouncing around" too much for you to track, that's more of a commentary on your lack of skill than theirs, and it certainly doesn't prove bad game mechanics. If you really aren't competent enough at aiming, you can wait until they empty their stamina - usually only 3 or 4 jumps even with a Scout suit - then shoot them before they recover enough to jump more. As for having a team-based focus, there's nothing to stop a game from having good combat mechanics - of ANY kind, strafe-and-track or otherwise - as well as good teamplay. They're working on WP rewards, and there are already some good team-focused rewards in the game, with more to come. In Chromosome, I frequently ran Logi, and had games where I literally pulled out my repair tool as I spawned, and never pulled out a gun after putting it away, and still, with a grand total of ZERO kills, was the highest-scoring player on the winning team. Quote: Very few shooters out there reward this kind of gameplay and I don't think you should either CCP. It's time to make people understand that if you get in a bad spot jumping and strafing and bouncing like a fool will not save you, and you should have thought about that before going in there guns blazing, thinking you're the man. Anyone that stays this needs to say is depending on it to much. CCP, just watch all the hate this gets as what I am saying is true, and some people will fight for it, but in the end with it gone aiming will be better, team play will be better, the way people fight will be better. Just something for you to look into CCP, I know it will help. Very few first-person shooters in the current console generation reward this kind of gameplay, because most current-gen console shooters are ripping off either Battlefield or Call of Duty (if they aren't part of one of those franchises). Plenty of third-person shooters have this style of gameplay, and do well for it. Transformers: War for Cybertron and Fall of Cybertron are good examples. Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine is another. If they fix the way aiming works, both in terms of correcting the aim assist glitches and by giving us the option to disable turn acceleration, then the gameplay will actually work. If they remove the reason why the game isn't another CoD clone, it will be a cheap knockoff of a product with minimal appreciable value except as a case-study in how to best rip money from as many wallets as possible with the least amount of effort.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2867	Posted - 2013.05.09 16:53:00 - [6] - Quote gabriel login wrote: so haveing read your post you dont think if thay cut back a bit on how high you can jump an tone down the strafe speed a bit it would not help. the point to my post was not to remove it all 100% just make it less of an easy way out if you get in a bad spot. No, I don't think it would help at all. It would shift the game away from the intended playstyle and towards a more generic and bland experience you can get in other games which I don't enjoy playing. A competent player with decent aim will often kill you as you sprint to cover, and all you achieve by jumping around like a lunatic is that you're now running out of stamina before you reach cover and making yourself an easier target. A jumping target is easier to hit than one staying at ground level in most cases, because you can't change direction once your feet leave the ground.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2909	Posted - 2013.05.10 21:02:00 - [7] - Quote DJINN serious issues wrote: Take DS3. Try to make fine turns from say 0-60% range on the analog stick. You notice the turn speed is pretty constant. You have to move your finger only MMs to make fine movement. That is hard to do. Now snap from 0-100%. You can visually see you turn slow for about a second or so before the accelleration kicks in. In reality you want that second or so to ramp up in between 0-60% so you can make that fine aim. Then you want the 60-100% range snap to speed instantly. Now you can GTFO. That's NOT what I see when using my Sixaxis controller. Tilt stick about 3%. Nothing. Deadzone. In Chromosome, this was more like 20%, and this was a problem. Also, 20% was when you turned the Move deadzone to 0, if you didn't, it was up to 30%, which was just game-breaking. I'm happy with there being a very small deadzone to account for a loose stick. Tilt stick about 5%. Almost full speed instantly when I'm at sensitivity 100. Not quite full speed, but maybe 70 - 80%. After about a half-second, it ramps up to actually full speed. What I WANTED was about 5% speed, that's why I was only pushing the stick a short distance. A window up to 20% where you get about 15% speed, then incremental increases the further you move the stick would be good. Instantly shove stick to 100% pressure. At sensitivity 100, I don't get full speed. I get almost full speed, maybe 80 - 90%, with it ramping up over about half a second. If that sounds familiar, it's because it's only marginally better speed than when I'm barely moving the stick at all. So I turn sensitivity down to 0. Now, when I tilt the stick to about 5%, I get about 5% speed. That's nice, but when I HOLD the stick at 5% trying to keep my aim on a slow-moving (or distant) target, I instead have my speed gradually ramp up to 100% over a second or two. Shove the stick all the way over, and I get maybe, MAYBE as much as 6% turn speed, with the same gradual acceleration. I want the ability to control my aim MYSELF, instead of the game's acceleration curve controlling it for me. Another problem is with Aim Assist. I don't often use long-range weapons, and having Aim Assist on doesn't signifcantly distort my aim at long range like some Sixaxis users have reported. Having it turned on means that I can actually play the game in CQC. When I turn it off, that 5% tilt that normally produced near-full turning speed doesn't just give me 80% turn speed any more. It gives me something like 300% turn speed, so I spin and end up not only overshooting my target, but overshooting by almost 90 degrees. If there's no enemy within about a 5m radius, turning works as I described above, not ideal, but workable. When I'm at the kind of range where I want to be fighting with a Shotgun, I can't aim with Aim Assist turned off. With it on, Turning when an enemy is close AND in front of me means that I bleed off ALL my turn speed when turning away from the enemy, so it nerfs my ability to say "kitten this" and run, but it makes it actually possible to try and hit a target when I want to. The same acceleration cureve is a problem - and a much more troublesome one - for mouse users. You move the mouse at a constant speed, and you DON'T get a constant turn speed from doing so. You have your turn speed gradually ramped up the longer you keep going. You DO, however, have the advantage of a very slow movement giving you a low starting turn speed, but other than that, it's screwed up so horribly it's not worth plugging in a mouse until this is actually made right..
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2917	Posted - 2013.05.11 02:16:00 - [8] - Quote After some playtime, I've found that I can actually do precise aim now - they appear to have fixed the problem with aim scaling that I was having before today. Not sure if they fixed Aim Assist though, have been to afraid to turn it off yet. WIll try in the next day or so and confirm.