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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
League of Infamy
935
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Posted - 2013.05.10 07:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
So the OP goes up against Pink Fully mercs, using the now brokenly op Tac and decides this means the Logi suit is broken and should be nerfed.
You know it was a running gag between myself and the various Corps I squad with that we'd know the forums had hit a new low when the "nerf Logi" threads started to show up, I guess the punchline is that such a thread actually exists now 
Here's a basic list of flaws in the premise
1) The weapon (and likely damage mod stacking) is broken or broken twice if we include the assumption of stacked mods.
2) Balancing game mechanics around outliers (like top players) is poor practice and diminishes the quality of the game. PFBz have proven they have upper tier competitive skill.
3) Flux Grenades. Caldari shield tanked suits are one of the only things I can consistently kill with my over nerfed MD simply because they evaporate if you look at them wrong after a flux.
Now all that being said the assault suits should have specializations that make them attractive to those in assault roles.
Heavies very much need some love starting with a real fix to the mass over nerf on the HMG
Scouts are not weaker than Logi in Uprising and are getting some love anyway as more scout suits and the cloak come out.
Final note, all aiming and hit detection are pretty bad at the moment, which should be resolved before breaking out the nerf bat.
0.02 ISK
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
League of Infamy
998
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Posted - 2013.05.20 21:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Logistic Suits are getting a little too much i say.They are creating a Meta staple of Massive total HP Assault units with unlimited restrictions and unlimited custom-ability...
They are supposed to be SUPPORT dropsuits.And they are ABUSED into creating Monstrous Assault Loadouts.
AND IM TALKING SPECIALLY ABOUT HE CALDARI LOGI
What prevents a player of Tanking with , say a Calgari Logi?
And this is not Regular Tanking. This is Heavy+ level tanking with Assault class speed.
None of the numbers I've seen support the idea that what you're saying is actually possible. Present an actual fit with skills, include PG/CPU requirements and slot consumption then tally the SP and ISK invested to attain said fit compared side by side with the comparable racial Assault suit.
Are you able to build a combat effective fit which does not rely on the AR line? If there aren't several options for alternate weapons then it implies the problem isn't in the dropsuit it's in the weapon line.
Also, you mention you're talking about the Cal Logi yet are making statements about Logi in general and about the dropsuits, why not tweak the Cal Logi specific racial buff?
For that matter if Assaults are doing their job why not look at their race specific buffs? The slayers I know tend to find those buffs uninspiring, sounds like they may need a touch up as well. Those two changes alone redefine balance with many implications and still don't need to touch dropsuit stats.
Play Heavy? Cool give me 3-4 Heavy fits mirroring the Logi fit, lets compare cost in SP/ISK and final stats.
You've mentioned you think all suits need a buff if Logi stays the same, so with the fits already listed above tweak the numbers to where you think balance would be proper and explain why.
Oh, and one more note to close, the whole hitbox size thing is a myth (if I'm wrong do please feel free to link me where CCP confirms that they're using differing hitbox sizes in the live release of Dust).
0.02 ISK
Cross
ps ~ offer is open to anyone, build the fits, show the numbers, make your case. Just use more than impressions and rhetoric and remember that SP investment and ISK cost per fit both matter as do all the stats on a final fit not just a cheery picked selection. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
League of Infamy
999
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 21:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ecshon Autorez wrote:First post was TL;DR and I'm not going to bother reading through 9 pages when I can't be bothered to read the first post. This post will be in response to what I think this is about: Assault players using Logistics suits for their increased slot count. Or Logis just not healing, reviving, ect.
If they feel like tanking and such, let them, they are giving up their sidearm for it (unless they are Amarr, the most combat oriented Logi suit in my opinion, to be used by Assault players that pull double duty as Logi).
Odds are, they'll still have some PG/CPU left so they'll most likely fit equipment onto it, it might not be high end equipment, or equipment that's really usefull in the current situation, but it'll help support the team none the less.
For Logis that actually ARE Logis not helping.... Can't really say much about them, I CAN say that since Chromosome I have found myselft healing and supporting my team less and less (I blame being stuck in a Skinweave because Logi suits cost more SP than I thought so I didn't have enough to get them, as well as the wheel seeming sluggish and unresponsive, and the nanite injector rarely reviving).
Keep in mind that they might not have the necessary equipment to assist you. If you need ammo but the Logi only has an active scanner, remote explosives, and drop uplink, then they won't be able to help.
There's also the nerf to nanohives which reduce their total on field presence/utility and be extension WP earnings. Thus making Logi less able (on average) to supply their team and earn less (again on average) for doing so. [Change to hives is likely a good one for several reasons but it still carries these consequences as well].
And the reduction in potential WP earnings with increased meta of injectors and repair tools [CCP is working on this one to resolve the tech barriers holding back a fix but until that fix comes the depressed earnings remain].
I'm a support Logi, I have played primarily support Logi since closed beta and in Uprising I have begun to resort to more 'slayer' actions just to try and attain a comparable earnings level as my standards in Chrome. Even then average earnings are down in Uprising as compared to Chrome.
~Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
1028
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 23:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
GVGISDEAD wrote:So when shall CCP's nerf hammer hit the minmatar, gallente and caldari logi suits? :3
If CCP is paying attention to the baseline numbers rather than all the QQ the answer to that should be "never".
It's not the suits it's the skill buffs and even then only the Cal buff is out of line (the weak layout of the Amarr not withstanding).
To build a Logi suit with the same stats as an Assault requires more ISK per fit and often more SP as well.
Most of the broken "logi" fits that have been posted or identified are using the already broken TAR and even then still cost more to field.
The Assault buffs need a retouch and the Cal suit buff scaled down a bit but other that that it's not an issue with the suits or what they can do. More SP/ISK invested in a fit (aka more risk) is supposed to give a greater edge (aka more reward).
Anything less is broken.
~Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1056
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Posted - 2013.06.01 05:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
GVGISDEAD wrote:Cross Atu wrote:GVGISDEAD wrote:So when shall CCP's nerf hammer hit the minmatar, gallente and caldari logi suits? :3 It's not the suits it's the skill buffs and even then only the Cal buff is out of line (the weak layout of the Amarr not withstanding). To build a Logi suit with the same stats as an Assault requires more ISK per fit and often more SP as well. Most of the broken "logi" fits that have been posted or identified are using the already broken TAR and even then still cost more to field. ~Cross Actually even without the "shield buff" that caldari logi receives you can obtain higher amount of shields and armor if you want ... the caldari logi can also obtain a very close amount of shields and armor while still having 2x Low-Power slots free, higher base CPU and PG (easier to fit proto modules/weapons), higher equipment slots, the additional cost of modules makes it up for the boost in performance making you less likely to die at a cost of one sidearm slot, the same amount of SP needs to be invested in both racial suits if we compared proto caldari assault (racial) and proto caldari logistics. As for the rest of the logistics except for the Amarr, it is clear as water that they can surpass its racial counterpart in the assault branch due to CPU/PG and additional slots
Actually no. To reach the same stats numerically requires a higher net investment in SP/ISK as the Assault suits have higher on board baseline stats in several areas. Furthermore the mods required to equalize those stats take up mod slots which reduce the number of free slots available for other fittings use and also reduce the available CPU/PG for use on anything beyond making up that deficit. On top of all that the Logi suits have to pay ISK/AUR for each of these mods just to catch up with the initial baseline of the Assault suits. Those are all costs associated with use of the suit, it goes well beyond "one sidearm slot", tho yes the Logi suit gives that up too.
The logi can specialize more highly sure, but if you're going to make a comparison you need to include the required fits to bring it's stats up the Assault level and then fit both logi and assault after that.
If you'd care to contest this assertion be my guest, please post the fits and their numbers that support your stance. And since you're dismissing the racial skills absenting them from consideration is fine (or include them if you'd rather but include all of them for both Logi and Assault and remember that the Cal suit likely needs toned down a bit so it's not a valid example).
Cheers,
Cross
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1058
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Posted - 2013.06.01 18:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cosgar's Alt wrote:Still funny that after all this time, we're still beating this dead horse. People still think the all the logis are OP when it's the racial bonus of the CaLogi. You guys know I still get hate mail for being a Minmatar logistics right? You know the one, relatively unchanged since E3, gained a racial bonus only marginally useful in specific game modes, lost 35 shields in exchange for an extra equipment slot at proto level? You guys need to get your facts straight. Also, if you do happen to see any Minmatar logis out there kicking ass, tell them to shoot me a message in game. I'd like to know what they're doing that I'm doing wrong.
I'm actually spec'ing into Min Logi right now (I have full proto Amarr but until CCP fixes their slot/PG issues they're hardly worth the ISK to run), I'll see how it goes for me and toss you a shout if I find something particularly useful.
o7
Cross |
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