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Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
11
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Posted - 2013.05.07 13:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've been bothered by something about DUST for a while, and I think I've finally put my finger on it. Many thanks to noShwagg, and to the Uprising build for making this problem so over the top.
Feedback:
FULL DISCLOSURE: I play as a heavy.
Range is a huge problem in this game. More so with Uprising.
Here is why: CCP has decided to use a hard range as a metric to differentiate classes.
In no other game is this the case. In practice, it is ridiculous. Rounds stop in mid air. This is absurd.
Sure, in other games and in reality there is different effective damage at range depending on the weapon. But this is not primarily dictated by distance. It is dictated by accuracy of shooter, rate of fire (ROF), and Round Power - Damage Falloff.
Request:
CCP Should:
1) Remove hard range cap on all weapons. Rounds should travel to their natural terminus; in practice this means across the map. (shhhhhh...just listen)
2) Weapon classes should be dictated by: - Handling (Kick) - ROF - Round Power - Damage Falloff
Example (categorized by effective damage/range, from long to short):
1) Long Range Weapons - Sniper Rifle/Forge Gun -Extremely High Kick -Low ROF -High Power - Damage Falloff Skill with Long Range Weapons comes from: Being a player with excellent aim, despite: -Extremely High Kick -Extremely Low ROF
2) Assault Weapons (Broadly) - ARs/LRs/SMGs/Shotguns/Pistols -Average Kick -Average ROF -Average Power - Damage Falloff Skill with Assault Weapons comes from: Being a player with excellent aim, despite: -Average Kick -Average ROF -Average Power - Damage Falloff
3) Heavy Weapons - HMGs -Extremely High Kick -High ROF -Average Power - Damage Falloff Skill with Heavy Weapons comes from: Being a player with excellent aim, despite: -Extremely High Kick -Average Power - Damage Falloff
Do you see a theme here? Excelling at a particular weapon involves having excellent aim despite it's drawbacks.
This is where people will say "Range is a drawback of your class, deal." Even an extremely skilled heavy player should have almost no chance of killing someone at sniper range. This should be due to simple geometry; the barrel bounce of an HMG is causing HUGE angle sway on rounds as range increases. This should not be due to the rounds entering a parallel universe at 50 yards. Dafuq Occasionally, an HMG, AR, or Pistol round should hit that sniper on the hill....though it will hardly due anything because of Damage Falloff.
Some will say, this will eliminate CQC. I would agree to some extent, but only in that the maps lack cover and depth. If you added in more cover and ways to approach and move around, you would force squad movement and engagement at closer ranges. A lack of CQC is an approach issue, not a weapon range issue.
As it is right now, you see people shooting at each other over completely reasonable ranges...I'm talking I could throw a football that far...and their rounds aren't reaching each other. This is ridiculous!!!
TL;DR?
Extend range of ALL weapons to common round ranges. No more vanishing rounds.
Differentiate weapons by their other drawbacks, and the users ability to handle them. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 14:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
Jaiden Longshot wrote:I would rather see damage fall off be more progressive rather than all weapons having the same range.
HMG should not be able to fire with that ROF at an ARs optimal and still do more DPS
AR should not be able to out DPS an LR in a LR's optimal but the AR rounds also shouldn't just stop making impact all together.
Despite the range NERF to all weapons the AR is still the most viable weapon....now it's just used in a stampede. A few guys might get picked off in the herd rush by ranged weapons but once the pile of AR clones gets within 65 meters, it's a done deal. They mow down heavies before they get near the 20m heavy optimal. Weapons like the LR and TAR only have about a 20m windown to take down the AR heard before their range advantage is rendered useless.
More progressive falloff is needed or a blanket buff to all effective weapon ranges. Being able to sight up an enemy with iron sights or Doom mode plain as day and not being able to do ANY damage at all is pretty game breaking, IMO.
Agreed J, but that's not what I want. At a long range, the handling of the HMG should make it less effective, by simple virtue of angular geometry. A small movement at the origin translates to an increasing movement at range. When a heavy weapon bounces around in an extreme manner, how many shots are actually landing on that far off target?
That is how it should be mitigated. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
20
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Posted - 2013.05.07 20:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
knight of 6 wrote:you should add bullet spread as one of your factors
long range: low spread assault: medium spread HMG/smg: high spread
Bullet spread is determined by the amount of kick.
I do not endorse random bullets spread. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
22
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Posted - 2013.05.07 22:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
knight of 6 wrote:Dis Cord wrote:knight of 6 wrote:you should add bullet spread as one of your factors
long range: low spread assault: medium spread HMG/smg: high spread Bullet spread is determined by the amount of kick. I do not endorse random bullets spread. oh, okay, i miss understood. i thought by kick you were referring to vertical movement. if you're factoring in horizontal walk as well I'm all for it.
Well...to some degree. I'm really looking for a bit more "reality." (I put that in quotes because I know, space game, yadda yadda)
A gun like a Bushmaster .223 has almost ZERO left-to-right sway. It's by design. A heavy weapon like a .50 cal MG have quite a bit more, due to it's massive kick back (unless you anchor the bipod).
Now, for ARs, I think drift should only be vertical. Same for pistols, shotguns, SRs. I will def accept some left-to-right on an HMG.
Again to be clear, I WANT my HMG to be an unruly beast. I want the difference between a good HMG user and a bad HMG user to be how that individual handles the weapon. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
23
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 23:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
alten hilt wrote:I really like the discussion on this thread. Something needs to be done about range. The following are my suggestions.
* I like the idea of longer range and more cover
* All weapons subject to sway and movement penalties
* All weapons should be differentiated by racial mechanics
Caldari: Short- and long-range missiles, and long-range charged projectiles (hybrid)
Gallente: Short-range charged projectiles (hybrid), and drones
Minmatar: Short- and long-range projectiles, and missiles.
Amarr: Short- and long-range lasers and drones.
Missiles (i.e. Self propelled explosives) - limited fuel capacity dictates range, but has self-guidance capabilities. Long-range missiles have more fuel, less warhead charge. Rockets: short-range missiles that have less fuel, more warhead charge. Overall low capacity magazines due to increased ammo size/weight.
Projectiles - Bullet distance determined by initial charge. Trajectory determined by the ratio of mass to accelerate. Autocannon: Short-range projectiles that have a high rate of fire, high capacity (small projectiles), low recoil (due to small bullet/accelerant) and flatter trajectory but less range due to lower charge. Artillery: long-range projectiles that have a low rate of fire (due to high recoil and longer feed times), lower capacity, high damage and more curved trajectory but travels long ranges.
Hybrid GÇô Physical projectile charged with plasma, dissipates energy with distance but has greater terminal effect. Blasters: short range hybrids that overcharge the projectile with plasma; they hit very hard, but the physical projectile burns up sooner due to higher plasma charge. Average recoil, average capacity, and average rate of fire. Railguns: Long-range projectiles that have a smaller plasma charge but do not burn up over range. High recoil due to larger charge and larger mass, average capacity, average rate of fire
Laser - Air molecules distort energy beam over distance. Beam laser: highly focused beam laser that has longer range, but less energy to accommodate more sensitive focusing elements. Long range, no recoil, and low damage, subject to heat buildup. Pulse lasers: short-range lasers forgo tight focusing elements for raw damage. They deal high damage, have no recoil, but energy disperses quickly, subject to heat buildup.
Drones GÇô Semi-antonymous machines capable of inflicting a wide array of damage types. Subject to the limitations of the racial weapon it employs and will only work within a limited distance of the operator.
* * All weapons are subject to environmental conditions such as friction, gravity, energy dispersion etc. As such, all weapons have a falloff distance at which they no longer possess the terminal energy necessary to damage a dropsuitGÇÖs shields or armor. At extreme ranges, projectiles may impact the target, but the shields and armor are able to absorb the damage within their operating parameters. Only when the projectile contains more energy that the shield or armor is actively able to absorb will damage to the shield or armor occur.
These are my ideas for overcoming the current problems with range in DUST
I like what you're trying to do here, in tying the Eve-scape in to DUST.
One thing though, and you didn't say this wasn't the case, but I feel it's important to mention in order to finally jettison hard range as a class definition: All weapons need to be able to contact all enemies...even if they do minuscule damage at long range.
In Eve, our scale is enormous. You're in a cruiser that's 200 meters long, orbiting another 200m cruiser at 35km. It makes sense at these ranges to have some weapons that just don't even reach.
But, on a field where I can see someone running around from a few meters away....dif story.
Thank you very much for the excellent response. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
23
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 23:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:Glad you picked up on a topic that has been a full throated roar for six months.
Indeed, I am not the first to have a problem with this. But I've been spurred to joining in the Roar Chorus!
Sing with me. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
24
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 00:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I've seen a couple of mentions about trajectory (aka bullet drop). Something people need to know/remember is that matches are not hosted on anyone's single console like other FPS games that can be mentioned. Everything is processed on CCP's server bay. To code in trajectory and travel time for small high ROF projectile weapons, and expect the system to track every bullet fired, would put a huge amount of stress on the servers even with only a couple of thousand players. That's why CCP only has travel time for large rail turrets and forge guns and not trajectory. Only grenade based weapons have both. Missiles and rockets are their own beasties.
It's funny that you brought this up, because I'm currently in a chat with some corp mates explaining further what I'm talking about....and this is not what I mean.
I'm talking about an effective damage reduction over range for each weapon, but no hard falloff. We're all basically within sight of every other player, after all.
We already have damage and range in the game. This is merely an increase in the factors.
It's not about Eve, a spreadsheet vs. spreadsheet of potentials in each shot. The target in DUST is either there or he is not. What damage is delivered should depend on the weapon and the player.
Whether the shot gets there or not should depend on the shooter and the gun. A sniper rifle should hit far and on the money every shot. An HMG should only get a few of the hundreds of rounds on target. But in both, the rounds should reach.
They should not vanish, with zero damage. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
24
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 00:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Dis Cord wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I've seen a couple of mentions about trajectory (aka bullet drop). Something people need to know/remember is that matches are not hosted on anyone's single console like other FPS games that can be mentioned. Everything is processed on CCP's server bay. To code in trajectory and travel time for small high ROF projectile weapons, and expect the system to track every bullet fired, would put a huge amount of stress on the servers even with only a couple of thousand players. That's why CCP only has travel time for large rail turrets and forge guns and not trajectory. Only grenade based weapons have both. Missiles and rockets are their own beasties. It's funny that you brought this up, because I'm currently in a chat with some corp mates explaining further what I'm talking about....and this is not what I mean. I'm talking about an effective damage reduction over range for each weapon, but no hard falloff. We're all basically within sight of every other player, after all. We already have damage and range in the game. This is merely an increase in the factors. It's not about Eve, a spreadsheet vs. spreadsheet of potentials in each shot. The target in DUST is either there or he is not. What damage is delivered should depend on the weapon and the player. Whether the shot gets there or not should depend on the shooter and the gun. A sniper rifle should hit far and on the money every shot. An HMG should only get a few of the hundreds of rounds on target. But in both, the rounds should reach. They should not vanish, with zero damage. My point was just aimed at the "Projectile Trajectory" aspects. I agree with you for the most part, but I have no problems with rounds piffling after they reach max effective range. I just think the max effective ranges should be more reasonable, if not more realistic, with the projectile (Projectile/Artillery) and missile weapons, and then adjust the energy (Laser) and hybrid (Blaster/Rail) weapons accordingly. Yes, there's be tears from the Anti-realistic CQC fans, but they'd still get in and make their kills if they play smart. One of the things I have noticed people shuddering at when uncapped weapon ranges get brought up is "OMG! The HMG shouldn't even..." What these people forget is that though the HMG may reach the distance of a sniper in the hills, the bullet dispersion would be so high that it would be down to blind luck for the sniper to get hit by a single round. If this isn't an example of one of the points you're tying to make, my apologizes for misunderstanding.
No, thank you. I think we're on the same page... |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 00:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:All maps need to be reworked to add more cover, the amount of cover that was added when Shiigeru, or whatever the hell that titan's name was, crashed helped a ton. Add more cover to the outside areas so we can move around and not get picked off immediately.
I had forgotten about this. That was excellent. Blow open range and make more cover, as I said in my OP. That is how you incite CQC.
ZDub 303 wrote:Linear damage drop off to ~60% at max range. Allow bullet dispersion to reduce damage at long ranges, not hard coding. The HMG and AR will probably be really balanced just due to bullet dispersion. Laz0rs are the one exception to this, since they have no dispersion, at which point you will need to hardcode weapon damage at all ranges.
I think for lasers the same simple reduction over range will work. They still need to cycle up, and that damage would be reduced by a decreasing damage/range effect. Lasers never bothered me...because I like realistic range. Though, the fix to the Viziam's damage (which was an error, if I'm not mistaken?) made sense.
ZDub 303 wrote:I will say, when I can't hit someone from across the street with my AR, something is grossly wrong. I can throw grenades farther than I can shoot, and its ridiculous.
You can pitch a baseball farther than you can shoot an HMG. DERP.
o7 |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 19:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ronan Elsword wrote:Forge guns were great for anti infantry last build, just took practice. I haven't been able to finish patch 3.04 so haven't tested any of the new changes.
I had zero problems with the FG last build. I would even have been fine with it having 0 AOE splash, keeping it more relegated to AV. |
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Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
44
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Dis Cord you are my favorite person ever.
You can be my overly gimped wingfatman any day.
We can run around petting people, "Soft like da wabbit. DON'T SCREAM. DON'T SCREAM."
Stand in one place, Heavy + Nova Knives = Bear Trap. New Build. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:alten hilt wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I've seen a couple of mentions about trajectory (aka bullet drop). Something people need to know/remember is that matches are not hosted on anyone's single console like other FPS games that can be mentioned. Everything is processed on CCP's server bay. To code in trajectory and travel time for small high ROF projectile weapons, and expect the system to track every bullet fired, would put a huge amount of stress on the servers even with only a couple of thousand players. That's why CCP only has travel time for large rail turrets and forge guns and not trajectory. Only grenade based weapons have both. Missiles and rockets are their own beasties. How do other console shooters handle this problem? I assume they experience the same limitations. I think other FPS games get around these limitations by creating a optimal range, a falloff range and a no damage range. Within optimal the bullet does full damage, in falloff range the bullet does reduced damage, and no damage range is the point where the projectile deviation from the intended path would be so great that the game automatically discounts the bullet and it "disappears" Other games can have realistic physics tracking by hosting their matches on one of the participants consoles so, for each match, there's a console dedicated to all the game mechanics for only those involved in that match which is why lag switches (One reason I don't play CoD anymore.) work for the console that's hosting to give the owner an advantage over other players in that match. Dust is hosted by CCP's server bays so physics tracking every projectile of even a thousand or so players would put a considerable load on the system. A 1000+ ship battle in Eve can affect all the systems on a shard, imagine what it would do if the system also had to real time physics track a few million "bullets" on top of missiles, mass drivers, rockets, drones, LAVs, HAVs, Drop Ships, market transactions, corp communications, trading, giving, contracts, ships, jump-gates, player owned stations, planetary interaction, skill point gains and expenditures, bounties, kill rights, aggression timers, targeting, module activations and deactivations, warps, every ship in Eve, drones, NPCs, missions, the list goes on. But it's all on CCP's servers. None of it is hosted on our consoles.
Did you play MAG? Ranges were no problem in MAG, and that was on a central server.
This is a matter of class differentiation, not a hard wiring problem.
|
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Dis Cord wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:alten hilt wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I've seen a couple of mentions about trajectory (aka bullet drop). Something people need to know/remember is that matches are not hosted on anyone's single console like other FPS games that can be mentioned. Everything is processed on CCP's server bay. To code in trajectory and travel time for small high ROF projectile weapons, and expect the system to track every bullet fired, would put a huge amount of stress on the servers even with only a couple of thousand players. That's why CCP only has travel time for large rail turrets and forge guns and not trajectory. Only grenade based weapons have both. Missiles and rockets are their own beasties. How do other console shooters handle this problem? I assume they experience the same limitations. I think other FPS games get around these limitations by creating a optimal range, a falloff range and a no damage range. Within optimal the bullet does full damage, in falloff range the bullet does reduced damage, and no damage range is the point where the projectile deviation from the intended path would be so great that the game automatically discounts the bullet and it "disappears" Other games can have realistic physics tracking by hosting their matches on one of the participants consoles so, for each match, there's a console dedicated to all the game mechanics for only those involved in that match which is why lag switches (One reason I don't play CoD anymore.) work for the console that's hosting to give the owner an advantage over other players in that match. Dust is hosted by CCP's server bays so physics tracking every projectile of even a thousand or so players would put a considerable load on the system. A 1000+ ship battle in Eve can affect all the systems on a shard, imagine what it would do if the system also had to real time physics track a few million "bullets" on top of missiles, mass drivers, rockets, drones, LAVs, HAVs, Drop Ships, market transactions, corp communications, trading, giving, contracts, ships, jump-gates, player owned stations, planetary interaction, skill point gains and expenditures, bounties, kill rights, aggression timers, targeting, module activations and deactivations, warps, every ship in Eve, drones, NPCs, missions, the list goes on. But it's all on CCP's servers. None of it is hosted on our consoles. Did you play MAG? Ranges were no problem in MAG, and that was on a central server. This is a matter of class differentiation, not a hard wiring problem. I'm not talking about range, I'm talking about physics tracking, AKA tracking bullet drop/travel time. Range isn't really the issue to handling this as any game could have unlimited range. In Dust, if CCP wanted, they could make an infinite ammo continuous fire pistol with pin point accuracy over unlimited distance. I'm all for falloff damage over staged ranges with the round disappearing after it becomes ineffective. I'm not for playing a game where combat can affect whole player corporations, alliances, and possibly sovereignty and it's all low end tactics happening at less than airsoft ranges.
We misunderstand each other.
I want rounds to carry on realistically. In practice this would mean that an HMG round would be deadly until it hit the ground via gravitational and friction effects (I don't care if you "see" it do this, as long as no one is there to see it. Tree falling in the woods....).
What I want to modify effective range is the handling of the weapon, and rate of fire. This requires no special fall off tracking like Eve has, because that is rendered over far larger scales anyway. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Dis Cord wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I'm not talking about range, I'm talking about physics tracking, AKA tracking bullet drop/travel time. Range isn't really the issue to handling this as any game could have unlimited range. In Dust, if CCP wanted, they could make an infinite ammo continuous fire pistol with pin point accuracy over unlimited distance.
I'm all for falloff damage over staged ranges with the round disappearing after it becomes ineffective. I'm not for playing a game where combat can affect whole player corporations, alliances, and possibly sovereignty and it's all low end tactics happening at less than airsoft ranges. We misunderstand each other. I want rounds to carry on realistically. In practice this would mean that an HMG round would be deadly until it hit the ground via gravitational and friction effects (I don't care if you "see" it do this, as long as no one is there to see it. Tree falling in the woods....). What I want to modify effective range is the handling of the weapon, and rate of fire. This requires no special fall off tracking like Eve has, because that is rendered over far larger scales anyway. But unless there's physics tracking, no bullet in Dust will ever hit the ground unless the firing angle will put it there. We would still need extended range damage fall off to account for loss of inertia on projectile and rail weapons and energy dispersion for laser and blaster weapons. Weapon handling does/did affect some weapons more than others. I can site lots of experience dealing with the bullet dispersion at range and increasing barrel climb of the HMG during extended firing.
Again, I cite MAG. This was never a problem, and it was on a central server.
What's the difference? |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
70
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
Bump. +1 most critical issue in game right now. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
79
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ace Starburst wrote:Ace Starburst likes this suggestion and would enjoy testing it out.
Dis Cord is happy Ace agrees.
You can test it out easily. Go shoot any of these class weapons IRL. Then go play any other shooter. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
79
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 18:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Dis Cord wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Dis Cord wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I'm not talking about range, I'm talking about physics tracking, AKA tracking bullet drop/travel time. Range isn't really the issue to handling this as any game could have unlimited range. In Dust, if CCP wanted, they could make an infinite ammo continuous fire pistol with pin point accuracy over unlimited distance.
I'm all for falloff damage over staged ranges with the round disappearing after it becomes ineffective. I'm not for playing a game where combat can affect whole player corporations, alliances, and possibly sovereignty and it's all low end tactics happening at less than airsoft ranges. We misunderstand each other. I want rounds to carry on realistically. In practice this would mean that an HMG round would be deadly until it hit the ground via gravitational and friction effects (I don't care if you "see" it do this, as long as no one is there to see it. Tree falling in the woods....). What I want to modify effective range is the handling of the weapon, and rate of fire. This requires no special fall off tracking like Eve has, because that is rendered over far larger scales anyway. But unless there's physics tracking, no bullet in Dust will ever hit the ground unless the firing angle will put it there. We would still need extended range damage fall off to account for loss of inertia on projectile and rail weapons and energy dispersion for laser and blaster weapons. Weapon handling does/did affect some weapons more than others. I can site lots of experience dealing with the bullet dispersion at range and increasing barrel climb of the HMG during extended firing. Again, I cite MAG. This was never a problem, and it was on a central server. What's the difference? The difference again is that there's a lot more happening on CCP servers than MAG servers. Once again... Missiles, mass drivers, rockets, drones, LAVs, HAVs, Drop Ships, market transactions, corp communications, trading, giving, contracts, ships, jump-gates, player owned stations, planetary interaction, skill point gains and expenditures, bounties, kill rights, aggression timers, targeting, module activations and deactivations, warps, every ship in Eve, drones, NPCs, missions, the list goes on.
This supports my point, lol. CCP is in a far better position to do this for DUST. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
85
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
Bump.
Specifically, I really want to know from a Blue:
1) Why CCP decided in DUST to suspend all normal shooting range/power mechanics that exist in RL and in every other game out there.
2) If they are going to continue with it, why they feel it's a better solution than simple RL physics mechanics. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
85
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:33:00 -
[19] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Dis Cord wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Dis Cord wrote:Again, I cite MAG. This was never a problem, and it was on a central server.
What's the difference? The difference again is that there's a lot more happening on CCP servers than MAG servers. Once again... Missiles, mass drivers, rockets, drones, LAVs, HAVs, Drop Ships, market transactions, corp communications, trading, giving, contracts, ships, jump-gates, player owned stations, planetary interaction, skill point gains and expenditures, bounties, kill rights, aggression timers, targeting, module activations and deactivations, warps, every ship in Eve, drones, NPCs, missions, the list goes on. This supports my point, lol. CCP is in a far better position to do this for DUST. Actually it doesn't.
You said that a centralized server was incapable of supporting things like bullet falloff.
Then you went on to say how CCP's servers deal with all those other calcs already anyway.
CCP deals with falloff constantly....in Eve. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
91
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 15:09:00 -
[20] - Quote
RINON114 wrote: I want to show my support for this thread, I feel that it's very important for Dust's longevity that range sees a sensible increase to at least 120-200m.
Agreed, as a minimum.
From what I've read this morning, CCP fails to realize how important this range issue is.
For instance, they know the HMG is useless now, but have decided to only buff it's damage, making it less useless over the same useless range, lol. Not a fix.
Range is the core issue with all weapons. If they blow open ranges, and add more cover (like when the Titan crashed, or more), they have a game that will play correctly, and have real weapon options. |
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Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
104
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 01:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
Bazookah Tooth wrote:In between the Black Screens of Death that we are now experiencing after the update, I was able to play with the HMG and the damage boost is exactly what it needed.
With the AR being powerful from distance, we can't just post up from distance and expect to tag enemies. The damage up close is respectable now. I was able to join 2/3 Ambush matches (never played before with the HMG, but the skirmish was not working for me under the "automatic" server) and came out 4/4 and 8/4 after i had adjusted my sensitivity.
i get that we are use to more, but when i worked with an attack team, i was able to provide close cover for them several times. Playing solo will get you killed now, which i can respect, but as a rush weapon for crowd control, it does its job with an attack group and heavy power. I've only experienced this in Ambush, due to server malfunction now, but i figure it will do great in area denial in skirmish.
At this point i feel that it is really more of how the Heavy user plays rather then the HMG, and we want that with all the guns right?
No. I want things defined correctly and people to build roles around that. What you just said means the role will change constantly with the whims of the player.
The current build, and the elation some are feeling, is more like this. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
106
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 13:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I didn't say it was incapable, I said it would put an unreasonable amount of stress on the server bay potentially causing issues for the whole shard.
Maybe it will, maybe it won't. It would be illogical for 2 reasons:
1) Other games using central servers make these calcs. 2) CCP already makes these calcs on the very server we're using.
Anything either of us say to this point is moot really. We can only cite other examples as evidence until CCP responds.
I don't expect them to respond because their concept of range (from their other responses to game problems) is so fundamentally wrong it's going to take a Gnostic experience for them to wake up. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
116
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Posted - 2013.05.13 03:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Dis Cord wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I didn't say it was incapable, I said it would put an unreasonable amount of stress on the server bay potentially causing issues for the whole shard. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. It would be illogical for 2 reasons: 1) Other games using central servers make these calcs. 2) CCP already makes these calcs on the very server we're using. Anything either of us say to this point is moot really. We can only cite other examples as evidence until CCP responds. I don't expect them to respond because their concept of range (from their other responses to game problems) is so fundamentally wrong it's going to take a Gnostic experience for them to wake up. 1. And those console games, like MAG, only do very limited scope battles on their servers.
MAG was 128v128 in it's largest mode.
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:2. As far as I know it's just missiles, mass drivers, grenades, and railguns as far as Dust is concerned.
I was actually referring to EvE....but it seems you now agree these calcs are made on Tranquility? I think you're just making some arbitrary server power assumption. Again, this is ultimately a question CCP needs to answer.
I was talking to a corp mate who mentioned that DUST doesn't do projectile mechanics, it is pure hit detection. Any travel you see is just graphics. If this is the case I could see how my suggestion would be difficult to implement, and frankly am even more concerned about the potential of balance.
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:It's not impossible, just improbable that CCP will have any type of Gnostic experience relating to Dust.
Completely agreed. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
119
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Posted - 2013.05.14 22:45:00 -
[24] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Sorry Dis Cord. Had to chop out quotes so it would let me reply.
Though MAG was 128 vs 128, MAG servers still only had to track a very small number of things in comparison to CCP servers.
In Eve they handle large loads on the servers, such as 500+ ship fleet battles, by putting them on a reinforced server. Even then, the players still can cause the time dilation mechanic to kick in. Imagine if TD was applied to Dust and, under massive shard load, everything slowed down to half speed. There would be rivers of tears.
Most of the weapons are hit scan, but a few aren't.
Yeah, I've def had the TiDi wtf moment before, lol.
Whatever they have to do to at least simulate reasonable mechanics should be undertaken at this point. The game is simply broken when I'm worrying about whether rounds are going to reach a target I can see with my plain eyes, lol. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
132
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Posted - 2013.05.17 14:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
bcs1a wrote:dalt ud wrote:Disagree
New range make game more interesting. No more rooftopers, no snipers far away in red zone.
Infantry playing now is very interesting, coz it not "far-away-head-glitch-shooting" and no permanent camping.
Range need no more changes, its perfect now. there's still campers, rooftoppers and glitchers, they've simply found different places on the maps to hide... nothing has changed in that respect. HMGs are screwed, there's not one projectile weapon in the game except maybe a shotgun that can't out-range the HMG and even shotties in scout suits run straight into the HMG fire and kill heavies... heavies are a laughing stock in Uprising and nowhere even remotely realistic to what they "should" by definition be. IDK where you got your definition of "perfect", but I'd dare say it's different than almost everyone else's... if you really want to have bullets act like they should?, then their falloff should be just that, falloff starting at the time the bullet's force no longer exceeds drag and gravity, meaning snipers will have to adjust their aim to counter the distance (no more straight line bullets forever till they vanish) same thing with any weapon that fires a projectile round from tars to charged, SRs to ARs, HMGs pistols, and everything else in-between...
Agreed.
dalt ud confuses a lack of cover with a weapon range problem. It's easy to do. One overlooks the fundamental issues because one's totally immersed in it. "You can't see the forest for the trees." |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
132
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Posted - 2013.05.17 14:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Kekklian Noobatronic wrote:Jaiden Longshot wrote: ...and since when did a projectile travel further and faster than light/laser?
+1, This. Milita AR - 39M Proto Assault Scram Rifle - 30M. Hur dur..
Distance from 1st to 2nd base: 27.4m
Can you believe we're even talking about ranges like this, lol? |
Dis Cord
Bounty Hunterz
137
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Posted - 2013.06.22 17:28:00 -
[27] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:Dis Cord wrote:I've been bothered by something about DUST for a while, and I think I've finally put my finger on it. Many thanks to noShwagg, and to the Uprising build for making this problem so over the top. Feedback:FULL DISCLOSURE: I play as a heavy. Range is a huge problem in this game. More so with Uprising. Here is why: CCP has decided to use a hard range as a metric to differentiate classes. In no other game is this the case. In practice, it is ridiculous. Rounds stop in mid air. This is absurd. Sure, in other games and in reality there is different effective damage at range depending on the weapon. But this is not primarily dictated by distance. It is dictated by accuracy of shooter, rate of fire (ROF), and Round Power - Damage Falloff. Request:CCP Should: 1) Remove hard range cap on all weapons. Rounds should travel to their natural terminus; in practice this means across the map. (shhhhhh...just listen) 2) Weapon classes should be dictated by: - Handling (Kick) - ROF - Round Power Example (categorized by effective damage/range, from long to short):1) Long Range Weapons - Sniper Rifle/Forge Gun -Extremely High Kick -Low ROF -High Power Skill with Long Range Weapons comes from: Being a player with excellent aim, despite: -Extremely High Kick -Extremely Low ROF 2) Assault Weapons (Broadly) - ARs/LRs/SMGs/Shotguns/Pistols -Average Kick -Average ROF -Average Power Skill with Assault Weapons comes from: Being a player with excellent aim, despite: -Average Kick -Average ROF -Average Power 3) Heavy Weapons - HMGs -Extremely High Kick -High ROF -High Power Skill with Heavy Weapons comes from: Being a player with excellent aim, despite: -Extremely High Kick Do you see a theme here? Excelling at a particular weapon involves having excellent aim despite it's drawbacks. This is where people will say "Range is a drawback of your class, deal." Even an extremely skilled heavy player should have almost no chance of killing someone at sniper range. This should be due to simple geometry; the barrel bounce of an HMG is causing HUGE angle sway on rounds as range increases. This should not be due to the rounds entering a parallel universe at 50 yards. Dafuq Occasionally, an HMG, AR, or Pistol round should hit that sniper on the hill.... Some will say, this will eliminate CQC. I would agree to some extent, but only in that the maps lack cover and depth. If you added in more cover and ways to approach and move around, you would force squad movement and engagement at closer ranges. A lack of CQC is an approach issue, not a weapon range issue. As it is right now, you see people shooting at each other over completely reasonable ranges...I'm talking I could throw a football that far...and their rounds aren't reaching each other. This is ridiculous!!! TL;DR?Extend range of ALL weapons to common round ranges. No more vanishing rounds. Differentiate weapons by their other drawbacks, and the users ability to handle them. Dispersion should also be a factor. the higher the rate of fire the fire the dispersion. so, even if my HMG could shoot a sniper on a hill, at optimal range only about 75-80% of my rounds should hit, and further away less and less. ARs need higher dispersion as they are full auto weapons. dispersion will help limit range without cutting it off because the rounds still travel the distance but not all reach target. when kick, and other factorsa are added in, the optimal range of various weapons becomes apperant to the user over time. this skilled assesment of engagement efficacy is required on the handler's part, which is a player skill in itseflf
What I'm saying is that dispersion is an effect of weapon handling (kick). A hand-held heavy machine gun should bounce around quite a bit, causing the focus of the bullet spread to widen significantly. It doesn't need to be a separate stat because it already determined by handling. But you're right in that the effect of heavy dispersion is the HMGs mitigating factor at range. Totally agreed. |
Dis Cord
Bounty Hunterz
148
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Posted - 2013.06.28 12:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
Range was always a problem in this game right from the beginning, but once you got in to sharpshooter proficiency you could at least stretch it to most normal engagement ranges. Had they given everyone SS Prof 5 instead of removing the skill it would have been virtually fixed.
There is a range change coming in the next patch.
"To make the whole shooting experience more dynamic and fun, weGÇÖre introducing Optimal, Effective, and Absolute range on all handheld weapons, which will modify damage depending on your weapon and how close you are to the target. This should address the feedback you gave us regarding weapons that deal damage well over their maximum range, and will directly result in a better core shooter mechanics." - emphasis added
I hope and I think what CCP is saying here is that they received feedback that their weapons should be dealing damage at ranges higher than the max ranges they've given them in the current build. The sentence is a bit unclear though.
/Fingers Crossed
I just hope CCP realizes that overall ranges need to be increased significantly to make this fix complete. A tiny increase to overall ranges will still leave the weapons broken. |
Dis Cord
Bounty Hunterz
151
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Posted - 2013.07.02 22:23:00 -
[29] - Quote
HMG did 1.2 bring us some range?
And I don't mean the ability to "tickle" someone, I mean the ability to put someone down. |
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