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Adam and Steve
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1
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Posted - 2013.05.07 02:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
This post is concerning an imbalance in skill points required to tech to a roughly equivalent level of gear for Logistics players, and does not concern gunplay balancing (strictly speaking, at least). This thread is an expansion of a post I made in the Rookie Training Grounds here.
If I am wrong about anything, please let me know, and I will edit this post post haste.
First, the basics:
Scout suits are a specialization of Light suits.
Assault suits are a specialization of Medium suits.
Sentinel suits are a specialization of Heavy suits.
Logistics suits are also a specialization of Medium suits.
In order to skill into a specialized suit, a player first has to skill up the basic racial suit to level 5.
Second, the comparison:
Scout suits of the same race and level are roughly equivalent to Basic Light suits.
Assault suits of the same race and level are roughly equivalent to Basic Medium suits.
Sentinel suits of the same race and level are roughly equivalent to Basic Heavy suits.
Logistics suits of the same race and level are not roughly equivalent to Basic Medium suits.
It has been established that Scout, Assault, Sentinel (Heavy), and Logistics suits all serve distinct roles from each other. However, the first threeGÇÖs functions and statistics are easily replicated by the Basic suits, while the LogisticsGÇÖ functions are not.
Third, the skill point disadvantage:
Since Scout, Assault, and Sentinel roles are replicated by the Basic suits, a player does not need to skill into those specializations to fill the desired role. Logistics suits, however, do not have an equivalent basic suit, and therefore have to skill the Medium Basic frame to level 5 before being able to unlock the logistics suits to fill their desired role. This results in a roughly 1.8 million skill point barrier to fill the logistics role, that the other roles do not encounter. It also results in logistics players having to forfeit an additional 3 million skill points to obtain prototype gear, compared to the other roles.
An additional side effect that I mentioned in the Rookie Training Grounds is that this skill point disadvantage also excludes new characters from being able to try out the logistics role.
EXAMPLE:
Let's compare the Amarr Medium Basic frame suit and the Amarr Assault suit.
Medium Amarr Frame ak.0: Assault ak.0:
70 PG 70 PG
350 CPU 350 CPU
180 Shield 180 Shield
180 Armor 180 Armor
1 Small Capacity Grenade 1 Small Capacity Grenade
3 High Powered Module 3 High Powered Module
1 Equipment 1 Equipment
3 Low Powered Module 3 Low Powered Module
1 Sidearm 1 Sidearm
1 Light Weapon 1 Light Weapon
And the same stats for everything else from Shield Recharge to Scan Radius.
Aside from the skill points required, the only difference between the suits in this example is a marginal cost in ISK, and that the assault suit can take advantage of the (expensive) racial assault skill bonuses. The role that the assault suit fills will (with only marginally decreased efficiency) be able to be filled by the Basic Medium frame. For contrast, the logistics role requires a complete investment in the medium frame, and skill points in the more expensive logistics specialization before reaching a similar level of effectiveness in its particular role.
I'm not sure if this unique skill point barrier for the logistics role was intended, but I was personally looking forward to respeccing into Logistics in Uprising, and am saddened that I won't be able to. I am further saddened that any friends I might convince to play will similarly be unable to fulfill the logistics roll before months of play. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
760
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 03:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
So basically the TLDR is:
It's impossible to be a true Logi without first leveling up Medium Frames to V, which is not needed for the other 3 roles.
This is particularly frustrating for those of us who purchased the Tribute BPOs because they were a BPO that required very little SP to use. Because I'm specializing in vehicles, I don't want to spend the million+ SP required just to equip my BPO....that defeats the whole purpose of why I bought it, so it's just wasted money now. |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
246
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Posted - 2013.05.07 03:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yeah why is there no Basic Logistics Suit !?
There's also the sp increase from 600,000 to over 3 million for the 2 cpu and pg skills Electronics and Engineering that the logi suits rely heavily on. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
760
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 03:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
Needless Sacermendor wrote:Yeah why is there no Basic Logistics Suit !?
There's also the sp increase from 600,000 to over 3 million for the 2 cpu and pg skills Electronics and Engineering that the logi suits rely heavily on.
Well one nice thing, the Skinweave Minmatar Medium Frame requires no skills and has two gear slots. LogiLite? |
Nomex Gallatin
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
9
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Posted - 2013.05.07 04:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Okay, here is my take on this.
Logistics has been the boon for any player who is looking to make SP and ISK (not necessarily in that order). None-the-less, logistics has been a VERY profitable role on both accounts.
The argument is (at least what I would make it) that logistics get's paid the most for the risks incurred. That is to say that a good (emphasis on good) logistics isn't worried about his K/D and rather plays for the team. This naturally means that his K/D ratio is mostly abysmal. Therefore CCP has given the logistics a number of ways to make SP and ISK.
If not balanced we would see a plethora of Logi want-to-be's (not that competition is a bad thing), but doing so would have (by necessity) driven down the SP and ISK rewards (much like in the incursions). The only other alternative is to see much more "mission creep" from the other suits over to the logistics (which means more half-@ssed logistics).
And, as ma'ma would say "That's the devil Bobby."
Anyways, my point is that by CCP's choice (thankfully in MHO) the new build will help to focus those who are serious logistics (yes, I am a purist and d@mn proud of it) and help to sort the less dedicated.
Yes, it's a *****, but if you are a dedicated logistics, you will be jumping for joy because you realize that your profession is a very dedicated one that will have little competition and your ISK and SP are secure (for now, but don't count on it). |
IR Scifi
Silver Talon Corporation
24
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Posted - 2013.05.07 05:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
I can see the logic behind that nomex. I think it's also combined with a very hard drive to enforce specialization. Which is why I think so many modules and equipment items got pushed up into the higher tiers. |
Doshneil Antaro
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
33
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Posted - 2013.05.07 06:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
I miss my gauge nanohives! |
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
221
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Posted - 2013.05.07 11:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
I presume you mean that by "nearly the same" you mean 99.999% identical between BASIC and ASSAULT, sans their actual cost.
My only concern is that CCP basically said you have to spend 2mil SP to get any kind of logi suit on the field. Meanwhile, for assaults, their only connundrum is whether it's worth the SP to have a lowered suit ISK cost, and for a lot of the A-game proto people out there, it honestly isn't.
There should have been a stark contrast between the BASIC and the spec ASSAULT. Slight dip on modules. Lowered base Armor/Shield. Maybe lowered speed, sta, shield regen. Even the slightest bit to justify the transition from BASIC to Assault Spec.
The fact that there is none whatsoever is just laziness on CCP's end and a big middle finger to logi runners. I've still dumped into the specialization but I can already see I'm well behind others BECAUSE I'm specing even at 7mil SP. Honestly, as someone whose played for nearly a year now, that may just lead to a drop off in gameplay for me no matter how pretty the new grass looks. I didn't mind being behind everyone because I was still able to hold my own, but the gap just widened significantly even for people who have been here a long while.
For new players this only supports their run-and-gun try-hardiness rather than bolster the ideology of team combat and the aide oriented spec role of the true logi.
TL;DR :
QQ; Logis get screwed while Assaults only need to spec if they want to save ISK.
HTFU:
I'm one logi among 10,000 assaults. Who is more valuable in keeping your clones alive in your little wars? Yeah, I'll just write down a number and you put it in my account.
__________
A strong man can do many things,
But the strongest knows he cannot do everything alone. |
Heavenly Daughter
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
76
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 11:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
I know how you all feel, I've also been using the Logisuit for a long time now, even though I unlocked the Proto Caldari Logi.
I also had to take a hit on, Armour repair, Armour plates, Shield Enhancer , Shield regen, Repair tool, Nanite injector, ALL took a hugh step down because of the previous SP HIP to get the suit.
NOT FAIR CCP....
H.D
PS, wont use the proto for a while |
Sebastian Borgia
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 14:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
It would seem to me that the intent was to allow new players to run around in a basic frame for a bit before deciding to commit to a specialty(not just logi). This way you've played the game for a couple months at least before committing to a specialization, and as such have a good feel for the roles of Dust and which one you want to play.
However, as said by many of the previous posts in this thread, there is currently no way to test drive being a logi prior to going into the specialization. I'm not really sure how easy this would be to accomplish without risking people using the logi test drive model as a replacement for the assault suit of old with its 2 equipments. I guess the intent is to get the frame to 5 and then spec the logistics skill to level 1 and see how you like it. Perhaps not ideal, but it does limit the risk of giving the logi's equipment away to someone in a different role. |
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Nomex Gallatin
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
9
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Posted - 2013.05.07 14:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sebastian Borgia wrote:It would seem to me that the intent was to allow new players to run around in a basic frame for a bit before deciding to commit to a specialty(not just logi). This way you've played the game for a couple months at least before committing to a specialization, and as such have a good feel for the roles of Dust and which one you want to play.
Excellent point Sebastian. |
Doshneil Antaro
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
38
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Posted - 2013.05.08 19:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
between sp needed for core skills, a mid range weapon, mods, and a decent suit for a logi (imo only full proto), we are out classed by every one. We need more skill points just to keep up with others as is, but I wish the none proto logi was camparible to full just like the other suits. Logis never get no love from ccp, and seem to be terrorizing us with these mass sp sink required to play the actual style that we want. |
Halador Osiris
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
294
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 19:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
As soon as there's a light pilot suit and a heavy suit with command bonuses you'll all finally shut up. |
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