DUST Search - CCP, CPM, AFK - the worms falling out of the can must be purged

Parson Atreides wrote:

Maken Tosch wrote:

No one has any right to tell anyone how to play in the sandbox. You built a sand castle? Here, I'm gonna destroy it even though you spent 6 months creating it. You bought those shovels for the sandbox? Here, let me steal them from you. You worked hard for that ISK? Here, let me scam them from you.

What I'm trying to say here is that everyone here is allowed to do as they wish. We are in New Eden which means there are very little rules and CCP doesn't care how we use the tools they give us.

No, they aren't. I'm not sure how long you've been in the beta, but there was a time when people were just crashing LAVs into stuff behind the red line, then repairing them and earning WP (and thus SP) that way. Was that okay? No, and CCP siad as much by fixing it.

This whole "Oh it's a sandbox so I can do whatever I want *stick out tongue*" is asinine. Remember the recent bug that allowed you to get almost limitless orbitals just by team killing to 2450 and then getting 2500 again? Yea, that wasn't kosher either. People AFKing ruins my experience just as much as that exploit would have. When people who aren't even playing the game are ruining it for those who are, the game is flawed.


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Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2172	Posted - 2013.05.02 23:35:00 - [1] - Quote Veiny Throbbing Joystick wrote: jenza aranda wrote: CCP knows about the issue and are working to fix it allong with advisement of the CPM in the new build. CCP has not, however, deemed it to be a exploit and so far have no plans to punish those doing it. We are in a sandbox with lots of tools to do what we want. its our choice to do what we want and build what we want with those tools so long as they exist. Regardless of if i like them or not, its not my place to tell people how to play with those tools, its CCPs. Your failure to recognize this AFK mechanism to be a cancerous and is killing the game worries me. Your "sandbox" argument does not even make sense. Sandbox refers to the endless possibilities players can create with their tools. AFK makes it meaningless to play with the sandbox. How can you not see this? No one has any right to tell anyone how to play in the sandbox. You built a sand castle? Here, I'm gonna destroy it even though you spent 6 months creating it. You bought those shovels for the sandbox? Here, let me steal them from you. You worked hard for that ISK? Here, let me scam them from you. What I'm trying to say here is that everyone here is allowed to do as they wish. We are in New Eden which means there are very little rules and CCP doesn't care how we use the tools they give us. Before the Chromosome build arrived during closed beta, Dust players didn't earn any WP (therefore no SP) for just being in the match. Then CCP decided to experiment by letting us earn WP/SP from time spent in the match in addition to the effort we made in the match. CCP probably didn't expect players to just AFK in the MCC. More than likely the AFK will be resolved in the next build but CCP will not punish the players for using a mechanic that they legitimately put in place. Also, I remember over a year ago when Goonswarm Federation launched an all-out attack against the biggest economic hub of New Eden after successfully cornering a critical market. Thousands of ships and billions of ISK worth of assets were destroyed as fleets of suicide-gank Tornadoes warped in opened fire on innocent freighters and other ships. The Eve Online forums were abuzz with carebears pleading for CCP to prevent the slaughter of the innocence. But what did CCP do? They pulled up some lawn chairs and ate popcorn watching the fireworks unfold. To CCP, no rules were broken. The same can be said here for the AFK players. No rules were technically broken. I don't like their play style and I hate it, but they were technically using tools they were given and CCP made no rules as how to use said tools.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2172	Posted - 2013.05.02 23:50:00 - [2] - Quote Parson Atreides wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: No one has any right to tell anyone how to play in the sandbox. You built a sand castle? Here, I'm gonna destroy it even though you spent 6 months creating it. You bought those shovels for the sandbox? Here, let me steal them from you. You worked hard for that ISK? Here, let me scam them from you. What I'm trying to say here is that everyone here is allowed to do as they wish. We are in New Eden which means there are very little rules and CCP doesn't care how we use the tools they give us. No, they aren't. I'm not sure how long you've been in the beta, but there was a time when people were just crashing LAVs into stuff behind the red line, then repairing them and earning WP (and thus SP) that way. Was that okay? No, and CCP siad as much by fixing it. This whole "Oh it's a sandbox so I can do whatever I want stick out tongue" is asinine. Remember the recent bug that allowed you to get almost limitless orbitals just by team killing to 2450 and then getting 2500 again? Yea, that wasn't kosher either. People AFKing ruins my experience just as much as that exploit would have. When people who aren't even playing the game are ruining it for those who are, the game is flawed. Did CCP punish the players crashing those LAVs? No they didn't. I was there when those shenanigans occurred and when orbital strikes were coming in literally every minute during the whole 15 minute match. CCP will fix the problem the AFKing but will not punish the players who were AFKing because no rules were broken. EDIT: I remember the "limitless orbital" bug you mentioned. It was tested once and reported immediately to CCP by the corp who first discovered it. As a result, it was used only once or twice before an extended downtime kicked in fixing it.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2172	Posted - 2013.05.02 23:55:00 - [3] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Did CCP punish the players crashing those LAVs? No they didn't. I was there when those shenanigans occurred and when orbital strikes were coming in literally every minute during the whole 15 minute match. CCP will fix the problem the AFKing but will not punish the players who were AFKing because no rules were broken. Gamers; if someone doesn't tell me it's wrong, it's ok, because **** principles. Finally, someone who understands New Eden.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2173	Posted - 2013.05.03 00:07:00 - [4] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Taking SP gained from AFK farming would not be a punishment. How would it be a punishment to take SP away from them if that SP was never earned and should never have received in the first place? They literally did nothing to gain it. I say take away all SP made from AFK farming (if possible). I'm not trolling when I say this: You are effectively asking CCP to punish players for using a tool in a way that technically didn't violate the rules. The tool is the mechanic implemented by CCP long ago that allows you to earn WP/SP from time spent in the match as part of their experiment. The experiment didn't go very well so they will likely remove that feature but they will not remove the SP earned because the players were merely doing what they were allowed to do under the mechanics. What you are suggesting is like this: You put a lab rat on one end of the maze and a lump of cheese on the other. You then leave tiny trails of very small crumbs of cheese somewhere alone the way because you think the lab rat won't make it to the other side of the maze in time before starving to death. You then realize that the rat is not going after the big lump of cheese and is just sitting around munching on the crumbs you left around. You then decide to remove those crumbs and leave the big cheese where it is so that the rat can finally get moving. But before you let the rat move, you pick up the rat and force it to vomit what it just ate. Effectively punishing the rat for eating what you gave it.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2173	Posted - 2013.05.03 00:18:00 - [5] - Quote Parson Atreides wrote: It's too bad there are so many of you super liberal (not in a political sense) apologists, or else we might actually shame CCP into punishing them. So what? CCP never told me that I have no choice but to jump out of the MCC. But I do it anyways because I like the action of stabbing enemies. And I don't see CCP telling me that I shouldn't team kill my fellow blueberries with an LAV (remembering to switch seats just before impact).
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2173	Posted - 2013.05.03 00:25:00 - [6] - Quote It's incredible how some of you people act. Just because someone used a legitimate mechanic in a way you don't agree with, suddenly you want to punish them for it?
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2173	Posted - 2013.05.03 00:29:00 - [7] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Its more like forgetting to make a law that outlaws stealing, and then upon realizing your mistake you take all the stolen goods back from the thieves, but then not throwing the thieves in jail or any other punishment. Oh no, those poor thieves got their unearned stolen goods taken away from them, what a terrible punishment When coke was still legal in the US, the government realize how much of a bad idea it was to keep it legal. So they outlawed it. But because the US Constitution stated that no man/woman should be punished for committing an act that was deemed legal at the time, no one who previously owned coke was arrested. They were only arrested if they possessed coke while it is deemed illegal.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2173	Posted - 2013.05.03 00:33:00 - [8] - Quote Parson Atreides wrote: At some point you realize that trying to use reason to have a discussion with people who are willfully avoiding even the merest notion of it...is pointless. You're right. It's point to use reason as part of a discussion with you. You so willfully ignore the facts.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2173	Posted - 2013.05.03 00:35:00 - [9] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I am not a cop, I am not a king, I can't tell anyone what they can or cannot do in the game. I am at best a senator who can voice the expression that afking is not welcomed and in clear violation of the right to fight to the emperors who can then force you all to stop afking. All I can say about it right now is that there is a CCP team working on this RIGHT now. What about taking away SP earned through AFKing at a time when it is technically a legal mechanic?
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2173	Posted - 2013.05.03 00:42:00 - [10] - Quote Parson Atreides wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: It's incredible how some of you people act. Just because someone used a legitimate mechanic in a way you don't agree with, suddenly you want to punish them for it? "Not playing is a legitimate way of playing". Maken : 1 Logic : 0 Well, I should've known you were just trolling me this whole time. I'll give you 9/10 for keeping me up like this.

Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2173	Posted - 2013.05.03 00:52:00 - [11] - Quote Parson Atreides wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Parson Atreides wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: It's incredible how some of you people act. Just because someone used a legitimate mechanic in a way you don't agree with, suddenly you want to punish them for it? "Not playing is a legitimate way of playing". Maken : 1 Logic : 0 Well, I should've known you were just trolling me this whole time. I'll give you 9/10 for keeping me up like this. Those are your own words. If anything you're the one trolling, both here and when you're AFK in the MCC. I don't like AFKers at all and feel CCP should have addressed this issue long ago when it was clear it would become a problem. I don't AFK. Did you even read my posts? I'm the guy willing to run into a gunfight with a knife while I see heavies with HMGs parking themselves in the MCC doing nothing and you call me an AFKer?
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2173	Posted - 2013.05.03 01:05:00 - [12] - Quote Parson Atreides wrote: Even if you don't AFK, the words above are still yours. Calling not playing a legitimate way of playing is nonsensical and moronic. Say whatever you want, but no rules were broken up to this point. It's as simple as that. I agree that farming SP via AFKing must stop because I don't like it. But I don't and never will agree that the AFK players should be punished by having their SP removed when the system was intentionally put into place by CCP.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2173	Posted - 2013.05.03 01:25:00 - [13] - Quote Parson Atreides wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Parson Atreides wrote: Even if you don't AFK, the words above are still yours. Calling not playing a legitimate way of playing is nonsensical and moronic. Say whatever you want, but no rules were broken up to this point. It's as simple as that. I agree that farming SP via AFKing must stop because I don't like it. But I don't and never will agree that the AFK players should be punished by having their SP removed when the system was intentionally put into place by CCP. I've already agreed that the chance of them doing anything (with regards to punishment) is basically zero, but don't try and act as if the AFK farmers are just harmless bystandards here. Technically the limitless orbital strike glitch didn't break any rules either--the point was that it wasn't intended to work like that. It's pretty clear the SP system now is the same way. Stop defending it as if the people aren't deliberately trying to fleece the system. That much is true. But what I'm seeing here and in one other similar thread is people wanting to punish players for doing something that was considered legal to do. In this case, SP farming via AFKing. By "punish" I mean removing the SP earned via AFKing. That's the impression I'm getting here from some folks.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2174	Posted - 2013.05.03 01:48:00 - [14] - Quote Overall, what I'm trying to say here is that it's one thing to remove the AFK SP farming but it's another to try to retroactively remove the SP earned when none of the players who were farming were breaking any rules. Yes, I defend their actions by virtue of the fact that they can do whatever they want with the tools given to them. Yes, their actions cheapen our efforts for those of us who actually put forth effort and therefore this mechanic in which SP is earned for time played must be removed. But I will not stand silent to the fact that some people here want to remove the SP earned this way. Since no rules were broken, there should be no punishment (in this case removing SP earned). Just simply take away the AFK-promoting mechanic and be done with it.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2174	Posted - 2013.05.03 01:58:00 - [15] - Quote Parson Atreides wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Overall, what I'm trying to say here is that it's one thing to remove the AFK SP farming but it's another to try to retroactively remove the SP earned when none of the players who were farming were breaking any rules. Yes, I defend their actions by virtue of the fact that they can do whatever they want with the tools given to them. Yes, their actions cheapen our efforts for those of us who actually put forth effort and therefore this mechanic in which SP is earned for time played must be removed. But I will not stand silent to the fact that some people here want to remove the SP earned this way. Since no rules were broken, there should be no punishment (in this case removing SP earned). Just simply take away the AFK-promoting mechanic and be done with it. I'm almost positive there was something we agreed to at some point (EULA maybe) that states we will not knowingly and willingly use exploits in the game. So rules were broken. Tears were shed. Now SP should be lost (and hopefully more tears will be shed). Fully endorse removing SP from AFK farmers. We'll just end this debate here right now and wait for CCP to make an official announcement on the matter.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2174	Posted - 2013.05.03 02:04:00 - [16] - Quote Again, it's all up to CCP to decide on that.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2174	Posted - 2013.05.03 02:09:00 - [17] - Quote Veiny Throbbing Joystick wrote: But if the EVE code applies, afk farming should be an offence. Key word.