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Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
153
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Posted - 2013.04.30 01:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
Now not everyone in this game has 10-12M SP and counting who can afford to fully go proto in a few weapons but its not about just the weapon its about the creating a smart and intelligent build without SP sink.
Lets assume operation and proficiency this next build remain 2x and 5x respectively that means it will take
621,840 to take operation in a weapon to 5 and
1,554,600 to take proficiency in a weapon to 5.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Anv4MqUic4uXdGNQdFZpVDRqbXkxMGM4aHpZVGZ0cUE#gid=0
No few if any are going to take their weapons that high to proficiency since it becomes a since past prof 1-3 and the SP can be better spent elsewhere. We dont know what the skill multipliers are going to be and also with reduction of secondary and tertiary prereqs it may be easier to get into certain weapons easier.
However with dropsuits coming on the 6th there are suits that directly augment the weapons in some respects or they reduce fitting cost in other respects. Not knowing fully the stats and fitting costs of these 4 weapons creates an uncertainty that if known could influence the choice of one racial ds over another and that is meaningful.
Remember many of us who have been planning for PC are the kind of logistical nerds that create fitting calculators and spreadsheets like the one above(not mine but one created by another awesome community member) and each piece of info is important we look at the market and look at each item in terms of stats and play with militia variants to get a sense of it before committing our SP to it.
With IWS reporting 255M SP as being the number of a supermax character 10-12 only represents <5% of total character SP and not something that can be just callously spent.
That said a counter argument to these number tbf is supposedly dropsuit multiplier is dropped from 8x to 6x which means the SP retained taking a proto suit to proto next build is enough to take 1 additional weapon to proto so there is that offset to counter the argument. Additionally the 3x SP event has the capacity to generate 1,142,400 SP without boosters if you can manage to hit the cap on that second reset before DT thursday(which is when i imagine the event ends).
But again not everyone has 10-12M SP like i do and other veteran players. They are closer to 4-6M and they will have to make the tough choice of get to a weapon to proto with whats available or sit out of PC for the first week because they will get crushed with anything less. Anyone who thinks a group of miltia/std or even advanced weapon players can keep up against an entire team decked out in proto/officer gear is out of their head. Sure you can take out 1-2 in a pub match you are not doing it against an entire team sorry not happening.
The other important point is this is our final chance to test and play before it fully goes live on the 14th. Give us that time to adjust. Keep in mind so much of this game has changed in the new build. Controls feel different, SS is gone and thus ranges have changed, the fittings and other equipment will change gameplay style and other factors that are difficult to gauge without feeling and playing the game itself. How can we be asked to fully wage war before we even get a chance to feel it out and take the build on a test run. After all this planning and playing please give us just this week to acclimate before the powers that be clash in what will be the most epic and spectacular series of conflicts gaming will have ever seen to date. I am foaming at the mouth to finally unleash the rage and fury that i know many of us have been waiting for with PC but lets us make sure we are comfortable with the tools that will get us there. Dont launch it half-cocked lets us have it all or at least be familiar with the changes so when we war it will be as if greeting an old friend that we are comfortable and familiar with, rather than an ackward teenager fumbling their way around with the opposite sex for the first time.
Before i get the HTFU and who cares and gaps will always exist and new gear will always comes out down the road that will make you regret not having SP saved up to max it out right away etc. And yes there will always be changes in gameplay that changes the feel of the game and there expansions that changes things. But this is a special circumstance this is the launch of the game and the launch of what will be all out war. I implore CCP to consider that they delay PC if at all possible(maybe you can just make it so Clone packs are not avaliable for purchase to prevent PC from going live but it still being able to view and everything else) If its too late and its going live, then consider extending the 3x SP event all the way to the 6th or heck even the 14th as the final bonus to the beta testers. This extra SP will let some of the smaller SP players really powergrind and put themselves in a comfortable position to commit SP to whatever is available on the 6th and still get the weapons they really want on the 14th. Im sure the flaylock and scarmbler are very high on everyones list. Though the flaylock would probably be a SP sink if it needs a nerf as Jenza suggests.
Sorry for the wall. |
NIKIA BETHUNE
Ill Omens
EoN.
152
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Posted - 2013.04.30 01:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
Couldn't read it all summarize please.
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Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
992
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 01:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:We dont know what the skill multipliers are going to be and also with reduction of secondary and tertiary prereqs it may be easier to get into certain weapons easier.
This is completely outside the point but, I really think that sidearms should be cheaper skills to unlock as opposed to other weapons. All weapons are 2x to unlock, pistols/SMGs included. Never saw reason behind that. (Yes I know Sidearm sharpshooter/upgrade/yadayada are 1x skills compared to the other upgradier skills). <-Like it should be |
Thor Odinson42
Planetary Response Organization
102
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Posted - 2013.04.30 01:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
Solid post, I think it's weird that PC is going to drop before the game is released. I would have laughed at someone if they'd predicted it that way. |
Geth Massredux
Defensores Doctrina
214
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Posted - 2013.04.30 01:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
 Didnt feel like reading all please summarize. You know some of us are just gamers |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
154
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Posted - 2013.04.30 01:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:We dont know what the skill multipliers are going to be and also with reduction of secondary and tertiary prereqs it may be easier to get into certain weapons easier.
This is completely outside the point but, I really think that sidearms should be cheaper skills to unlock as opposed to other weapons. All weapons are 2x to unlock, pistols/SMGs included. Never saw reason behind that. (Yes I know Sidearm sharpshooter/upgrade/yadayada are 1x skills compared to the other upgradier skills). <-Like it should be
Yea i tend to agree. It should be interesting to see with the elimination of certain skills and the reduction in multipliers for others, the only thing left to determine if any skills got an increase if not then that means my SP is going to get a lot of mileage.
After 255M SP though a lot i doubt is whats needed for every skills thats included in the Uprising build but rather all future skills and weapons CCP plans to add.
After all 255MP SP assuming 30M SP generation/year=8.5years.
Considering i have over 10M in 4 months thats where i get 30M from.
High end 12 so lets lets 40M/yr as an real super level of grinding is 6.4 years. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
992
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Posted - 2013.04.30 01:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
So in the end, Aurum/Dedicated Life will be the demise of Dust 514's opening, as SP gaps will cause unbalance in the universe, throw off new players, and furthermore deter new players due to an extreme uphill battle not to mention learning curve.
I can feel the hatred resonating before I even write, but, what if SP gains were logarithmic? X being time, Y being total SP. |
Cody Sietz
The Tritan Industries
RISE of LEGION
95
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Posted - 2013.04.30 03:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Sooooo, we will get a small window of extra sp? |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
155
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Posted - 2013.04.30 04:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:So in the end, Aurum/Dedicated Life will be the demise of Dust 514's opening, as SP gaps will cause unbalance in the universe, throw off new players, and furthermore deter new players due to an extreme uphill battle not to mention learning curve.
I can feel the hatred resonating before I even write, but, what if SP gains were logarithmic? X being time, Y being total SP.
No no and hell no. If anything it should be easier to skill up. After all this game offers something other games that other games that implement prestige systems for leveling cannont.
PERSISTANCE.
Character progression should be quick and fluid mainly because getting to the higher levels of the game is where the real fun and challenge of this game is anyway.
It will be playing for sovereignty and waging war campaigns. That is far more engaging and desirable a reason to continually login than grinding for character progression.
I get that MMO and RPG grinding is part of the culture but ask yourself why this is? Does it serve any purpose other than to artificially extend the life of a game in which the content is limited by what the devs put into it.
This game is unlimited in its content because it is governed by economy, player ambition and imagination. Thats what will make this game thrive. The quicker you can get newer players into those aspects of the game the better it is. Now there is an argument to be made that grinding and facing the difficulty of tough player competition by way of XP gap teaches humility and reinforces the need to think and strategize which will be needed to successfully navigate through players at the higher end of the game.
But cmon man that approach to gaming made sense when the only thing to do was level up your character to give yourself a sense of achievement and more importantly its a operant conditioning program similar to pavlov's dog. Its the only purpose it serves and it gives the illusion of advancement.
This game doesnt need the illusion it has advanceement built in. You begin your days a novice soldier unschooled and untrained in the machinations of war. In time as your skills develop and sharpen you hone them to become fiercer and deadlier. But these aren't artificial skills like weapons or damage or the like. The skills you sharpen are your physical and mental skills.
Your hand/eye coordination, your problem solving, your situtational awareness, your aim, your management of a battlefield, and in time you progress to become a solider well versed in the art of virtual combat ready to navigate the politics and treachery of New EDEN. You are not restricted by mundane constraints like SP you are only restricted by your mind and your abilities, if you are the superior warrior it will translate in your actions as you begin to wage YOUR war on the universe.
There isnt a damn game on earth that can provide what i just described and it mean something or matter. It is also the reason why this game really need NO SP progression at all but if its going to have one make it a short one not a painstakingly long one. Let players begin to make their mark on this universe becuase the sooner they get tied into it the harder it is for them to leave it behind. |
Chimeric Destiny
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
48
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Posted - 2013.04.30 06:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Good post i agree.
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Cody Sietz
The Tritan Industries
RISE of LEGION
95
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Posted - 2013.04.30 07:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
Now I agree with a good portion of your post, I still think there should be a end level where you have to really focus your sp into a certain skill set in order to progress higher (so to speak)
There is always a limited a human can hit as far as skill goes and thats where the augmentation comes in.
bad at shooting down range? Invest in skills that improve aim.
Always running out of ammo? Improve your reloading skill.
Can seem to take down your target? Increase your dmg output.
Do I think you should be able to be a all around super soldier? Not right away. But after a time you should be able to improve all aspects of your toon and yourself. People want to grind to get there faster then everyone else? Thats fine, let'em. We will all get there anyway, just a tad slower. |
Ric Barlom
On The Brink
CRONOS.
15
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Posted - 2013.04.30 07:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
You make great point, Keyser, and I fully support the idea that we should get that short time to test stuff out, plan fittings and all that stuff. I also find your ideas on the skill progression very interesting, but I know I speak for a lot of people who still like the idea of creating your own character and making those decisions on where to spend our hard earned skill points, man. Even if one could argue that the character customization is mostly an illusion.
What worries me about this thread though, are all these ******* geniuses who find it too difficult to read 7 paragraps of text! I mean my God, that's one huge undertaking! And then these guys have the nerve to come out here and complain about it, while demanding a "summary"?! Jesus Christ! The OP was nice enough to dumb himself down for you retards too. You know what guys, I'm gonna give you a little life advice right now, man, and you can thank me later: Go read some books. Any books are fine, but I recommend Hemingway. Read some Hemingway and man up, guys! |
DeeJay One
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
16
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Posted - 2013.04.30 07:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Solid post, I think it's weird that PC is going to drop before the game is released. I would have laughed at someone if they'd predicted it that way.
Even when it would be on from the 14th no new corp would have to money to buy starter packs, so well, doesn't really matter that much anyway.
As for proto gear outgunning everyone else - even I could kill full proto guys with my militia fits ;) Kills don't matter that much if your MCC in PC goes down anyway. |
Charlotte O'Dell
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
184
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Posted - 2013.04.30 07:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'm with you on this one. |
trollsroyce
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
327
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 08:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
Agree but on different reasons: extended planning time would be good, SP is irrelevant to this IMHO. +1 |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2643
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 10:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:I get that MMO and RPG grinding is part of the culture but ask yourself why this is? Does it serve any purpose other than to artificially extend the life of a game in which the content is limited by what the devs put into it.
Actually, there is another purpose. It's important in RPGs, and it's actually important in a meta-focused FPS like DUST, but because such games are rare, it's something that will be overlooked - particularly by experienced shooter veterans.
Having a reasonable level of grinding forces players to skill up with the in-game mechanics before they can get into the high-level metagame. It's like in most MMOs, you need to grind through levels with (usually simple) quests to reach the "endgame" content. A lot of players don't see you as a real player until you're leveled up enough to join in on this final stage, and they view the rest of the game as a tutorial.
For DUST, the "endgame" is FW and PC, and while FW is going to cater to players at lower levels as well, PC will be all about top-tier equipment, in-game and metagame politics, and the financial game. You need to make sure a player going into Planetary Conquest either a) knows they're rushing into something that's probably beyond them, or b) is prepared for what they're getting into. How do you do this? MAKE THEM GRIND FIRST.
a) Over-confident shooter vet tries getting into PC or a high-level FW battle, gets dominated - partly because they aren't familiar with the game controls and mechanics, but also partly because their skill isn't enough to overcome the combined gear and SP advantage their opponents will have.
b) After realising they need to work at it a bit, the player "grinds" in instant battles and lower-tier Faction Warfare, getting a better knowledge of the maps and core gameplay, before tackling the higher-level fights again. They also meet other players, some of whom work well together. This skilled gamer finds that coordinating with teammates is almost as valuable as individual skill, and can sometimes be even more important. They join a Corp, which in turn is part of an Alliance, and armed with greater knowledge and better backup, they find themselves part of a group carving out their own place in New Eden's history.
a) Novice shooter player doesn't even try throwing themselves into the high-level FW, let alone PC. They know that would be beyond their skills - both actual and in-game. Even in the beginner matches, they're getting an average of about 1:1 K/D, with a similarly balanced W/L ratio.
b) It takes a while just to get a stable W/L ratio, maybe building up their K/D (depending on role) as well. As the new player gets a bit of confidence, they might move into lower-level FW battles, starting to build a reputation as a solid player, if not a great one. Working their way up the FW ranks, the player will get to know others, and if they network and manage the political aspects of the playerbase well, they might find themselves in a high-level Corp, possibly even working into a leadership position if they're smart and the Corp respects that over individual skill.
TL;DR version
DUST's grind serves a valid purpose in giving players experience (real experience, not experience "points"), a solid understanding of game mechanics, and time to learn the game's political landscape and how that differentiates it from most shooters. |
KEROSIINI-TERO
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
311
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Posted - 2013.04.30 11:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
About having more SP bonus events to help new players:
Having bonus SP events boost most of all the most hardore players as they have the will and the time to maximise it and make sure they won't miss any of the events bonuses.
These hardcore dust players, even few might have joined later, are the ones who started capping their characters on January 6th.
Hence, if you don't limit the characters eligible for SP boost event, the veteran hardcore players are the ones who gain most in raw SP.
Note that limiting eligible chars for bonuses is bad in general.
---
About the 'end game where all the interest and fun lies for every player'
People have so many different motives. Even tho many veterans are going for PC, it does not mean every player has to do it.
Previosly the was assumption that zero.zero gameplay was the endgame of Eve and assumption that every player wants to and should head there. The assuption was dead wrong. Having large and deep enough game let's players drift to do what they want.
Me and my corpmates, for example, are not that interested in PC but rather waiting for Rogue Drones PVE. Okay we might help some friends if they need fillers but simple one squad ambushes or even solo ambs will do for us in the months to come. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
3738
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Posted - 2013.04.30 11:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
Trust me guys its a current hot topic inside the CPM right now and being discussed between the council and CCP. |
Natu Nobilis
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
138
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Posted - 2013.04.30 11:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
Trial and Error.
Trial and Error.
Trial and Error.
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Happy Violentime
OMFGZOMBIESRUN
26
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Posted - 2013.04.30 12:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:TL;DR: Not everyone has 10-12M SP like day 1 veteran players do, while the 3x SP event and reduced levels of SP required to get to protosuit (by way of FF statements; unconfirmed) will allow players to get into proto weapons that they already have easier and thus have enough SP needed to still get those new weapons coming to proto, it will be a struggle to many of the players who may want to enter PC who have 4-6M SP and thus have to truly sacrifice PC or new weapons(the arguments for why that is in the wall and cant be summarized without turning this into a wall too). Additionally this being launch, launch it right and with a bang giving every closed tester time to play with the build before jumping into full scale war
Now not everyone in this game has 10-12M SP and counting who can afford to fully go proto in a few weapons but its not about just the weapon its about the creating a smart and intelligent build without SP sink.
LOL, I personally think everyone is going to get well and truly trolled by CCP next week.....
I'm going to now peer into my crystal ball....
6th of May, all SP normalised for all mercs - what does that mean, well, CCP have said no more resets and have told us we're getting our skill books/isk etc back, but they've never said they wouldn't set all players at the same SP Level - let's say 15 Mil SP - this endurance event is just a troll you're not really getting extra SP you're just playing for the single BPO reward at the end.
All new characters from 6th May get a starting SP of 15 Mil
All skill costs and rewards are adjusted accordingly to compensate for the rise in base SP from 500,000 to 15 Mil
This will also allow for the refund of the Merc pack.
There will be much QQ
Hilarity will ensue..
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2644
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Posted - 2013.04.30 12:35:00 -
[21] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:About the 'end game where all the interest and fun lies for every player'
People have so many different motives. Even tho many veterans are going for PC, it does not mean every player has to do it.
Previosly the was assumption that zero.zero gameplay was the endgame of Eve and assumption that every player wants to and should head there. The assuption was dead wrong. Having large and deep enough game let's players drift to do what they want.
Me and my corpmates, for example, are not that interested in PC but rather waiting for Rogue Drones PVE. Okay we might help some friends if they need fillers but simple one squad ambushes or even solo ambs will do for us in the months to come.
When did I say that PC was the only endgame?
FW and PC isn't the same as just PC.
And PvE isn't coming in Uprising, or I would have included that as part of the endgame list. I was only talking about current or almost-current features of the game, not something that's probably still a year away. |
J-Lewis
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2013.04.30 13:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
Malcanis' Law wrote:"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of GÇÿnew playersGÇÖ, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."
I'm a 5M SP player myself.
Stalling will just mean more SP for the 10-12 M SP group. There's no point in delaying PC, because it's a feature aimed at the highest competitive scene - at least for now (it's only one region).
Once more regions open up, the less fortunate players have a better chance at grabbing a piece for themselves. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
161
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Posted - 2013.04.30 15:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Trust me guys its a current hot topic inside the CPM right now and being discussed between the council and CCP.
What is?
The level of grind or pushing back PC since that was the OP.
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Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
161
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Posted - 2013.04.30 15:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
Moved to a different topic since its a worthy side convo. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
161
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 15:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
Moved to a new topic since its a side convo, but worth discussing. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
161
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 15:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
Moved it to here since its a side convo.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=728800#post728800
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MlDDLE MANGEMENT
lMPurity
5
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Posted - 2013.04.30 18:36:00 -
[27] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Trust me guys its a current hot topic inside the CPM right now and being discussed between the council and CCP.
Any word on this IWS? |
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