DUST Search - [Request] Balancing Long-term Weapon Viability.

Ops Fox wrote:

Something I would like to point out is a weapon should be compared to other weapons in its class in this case the SMG. Which still leaves a huge discrepancy between the pistol and the SMG which should be resolved. seeing as our SMG our more like machine pistols I think they be treated as such. Namely decrease the amount of ammo our machine pistol/SMG carry to have something more in the range of 5000 DPS and buff the amount of Ammo pistols carry to get around 5000 dps.

I would also suggest doubling the MD and sniper ammo capacity so it can compete with other light weapons this way we have

side arms doing around 5000 DPS
Light weapons doing around 10000DPS
and heavy weapons doing around 20000DPS

CCP can then use this in all future weapons development

directly at your argument though you have to remember the pistol is a side arm not a primary weapon it is what you fall back on and its expected that you will normally be carrying a light weapon around with you. Therefor the full potential of a clone is not being underutilized by the system.

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The Black Jackal The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 417	Posted - 2013.04.24 20:40:00 - [1] - Quote For base comparison, I'm using Base Stats on Standard Weapons. Heavy Machine Gun Damage: 16.0 Ammunition: 1500 Potential Damage Output: 24000 Submachine Gun Damage: 21.0 Ammunition: 480 Potential Damage Output: 10080 Assault Rifle Damage: 31.0 Ammunition: 300 Potential Damage Output: 9300 Sniper Rifle Damage: 190.0 Ammunition: 25 Potential Damage Output: 4750 Mass Driver (Based on Direct Damage) Damage: 225.0 Ammunition: 18 Potential Damage Output: 4050 Scrambler Pistol Damage: 72.0 Ammunition: 42 Potential Damage Output: 3024 For those who see the discrepancy, I'm sure you can see that the long term viability of any clone is limited severely based on it's weapons. The Heavy with Heavy machine Gun, is actually the one least likely to require Logistical Ammunition Supply, while the Pistol (which is reloaded via a tiny little cartridge around the size of your thumb), is the least viable long-term weapon. What I propose is a rebalanced that allows weapons to be used for long term (ie, roughly similar damage potentials) equating to long term use. Even with skills, the values change only a little, and those at the higher end become much more sustainable (based on %) while those at the bottom become only slightly more sustainable. I am going through a spate of heavy pistol use. And I love their utility, despite their short range. However, they are not viable to be employed long-term. While the Submachine Gun has a much higher Damage Potential making it a much more viable long-term weapon. If clones arte going to be considered a resources, then we should be able to utilise that clone's full potential for an entire battle if possible. Which under current systems, with certain weapons, it's not. Before anyone says, "But weapons have higher DPS," etc, that isn't the point of this thread. I'm talking about the Ammunition Reserve. The number of times you can reload without visiting a Supply Depot, or Nanohive. I'll lay out a quick example. You face foes with 100% accuracy in this scenario (no headshots). Each enemy has roughly 500 EHP (Pretty Standard Assault Suit HP). The number of kills you can achieve with each weapon is as follows (without resupply): - Heavy machine Gun: 48 - Submachine Gun: 21.6 - Assault Rifle: 18.6 - Sniper Rifle: 9.5 - Mass Driver: 8.13024 - Scrambler Pistol: 6.048 As we can see, someone wielding a Pistol is severely disadvantaged in long term sustainability over someone wielding a Submachine Gun, or Assault Rifle. Bringing the reserves up, will make it viable to focus on survivability and not die. Which, at the moment, there is little incentive for. With Planetary Conquest on the horizon, I don't want our precious clone resource squandered as people suicide to get back into the fight because of ammunition shortage. On that note, I believe the Heavy Machine Gun should be reduced in this case, making it less viable to run. That we run an arbitrary 'number of reloads, system without regards to size, weight, and bulk is a flawed system. You could carry dozens of Scrambler Pistol Reloads on your belt, but the bulky chambers housing the HMG's Ammunition should be more limited. Forcing them to require Logistic Support more often. The fact that they can 'at standard' kill more than double their next closest rival, without requiring resupply, is ludicrous.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon Plus 95	Posted - 2013.04.24 21:49:00 - [2] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: On that note, I believe the Heavy Machine Gun should be reduced in this case, making it less viable to run. That we run an arbitrary 'number of reloads, system without regards to size, weight, and bulk is a flawed system. You could carry dozens of Scrambler Pistol Reloads on your belt, but the bulky chambers housing the HMG's Ammunition should be more limited. Forcing them to require Logistic Support more often. The fact that they can 'at standard' kill more than double their next closest rival, without requiring resupply, is ludicrous. The heavy doesn't really need another nerf tbh, but it's a decent suggestion. The pistol could definitely do with more clips. I do love my scrambler sometimes. You're discounting headshots though, which are pretty important with the scrambler pistol. If you use a breach, you can get a kill a shot if every one is a headshot. Of course, that's unlikely, but the huge damage increase from the headshot is significant for the scrambler pistol.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 418	Posted - 2013.04.24 22:12:00 - [3] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The Black Jackal wrote: On that note, I believe the Heavy Machine Gun should be reduced in this case, making it less viable to run. That we run an arbitrary 'number of reloads, system without regards to size, weight, and bulk is a flawed system. You could carry dozens of Scrambler Pistol Reloads on your belt, but the bulky chambers housing the HMG's Ammunition should be more limited. Forcing them to require Logistic Support more often. The fact that they can 'at standard' kill more than double their next closest rival, without requiring resupply, is ludicrous. The heavy doesn't really need another nerf tbh, but it's a decent suggestion. The pistol could definitely do with more clips. I do love my scrambler sometimes. You're discounting headshots though, which are pretty important with the scrambler pistol. If you use a breach, you can get a kill a shot if every one is a headshot. Of course, that's unlikely, but the huge damage increase from the headshot is significant for the scrambler pistol. Basing ammunition reserves on 'head shots' punishes those who want to use it as a snap shot weapon like I do.. I do get headshots, but they're one in 4-5 shots. And... Even if you hit every shot a Head Shot, you'd be looking at a sustainability still below the HMG.
Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 29	Posted - 2013.04.24 23:23:00 - [4] - Quote HMGs release a stream of bullets. Unless they all hit the target (it's a bit of a cone type spray) the actual damage done if more likely considerably less than what you are suggesting. The point has merit though as a MD will run out of ammo relatively quickly compared to any weapon other than the Forge gun. I feel that ammo reserves for all weapons could be beefed up a bit.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 418	Posted - 2013.04.24 23:54:00 - [5] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: HMGs release a stream of bullets. Unless they all hit the target (it's a bit of a cone type spray) the actual damage done if more likely considerably less than what you are suggesting. The point has merit though as a MD will run out of ammo relatively quickly compared to any weapon other than the Forge gun. I feel that ammo reserves for all weapons could be beefed up a bit. Except the HMG... The HMG belongs on a Heavy, which should run with a Logi Support to be sustained in combat.
Dominus Fatali Nox Aeterna Security 68	Posted - 2013.04.25 00:11:00 - [6] - Quote You have a point, however, if you consider SMGs and Scrambler Pistols in the role they are suited (i.e. backup weapons), then the amount of ammunition they have is fine, if not a bit too much for the former. Plus, if we're looking at sheer damage without a resupply, Nova Knives easily win.
Ops Fox ZionTCD 214	Posted - 2013.04.25 00:17:00 - [7] - Quote Something I would like to point out is a weapon should be compared to other weapons in its class in this case the SMG. Which still leaves a huge discrepancy between the pistol and the SMG which should be resolved. seeing as our SMG our more like machine pistols I think they be treated as such. Namely decrease the amount of ammo our machine pistol/SMG carry to have something more in the range of 5000 DPS and buff the amount of Ammo pistols carry to get around 5000 dps. I would also suggest doubling the MD and sniper ammo capacity so it can compete with other light weapons this way we have side arms doing around 5000 DPS Light weapons doing around 10000DPS and heavy weapons doing around 20000DPS CCP can then use this in all future weapons development directly at your argument though you have to remember the pistol is a side arm not a primary weapon it is what you fall back on and its expected that you will normally be carrying a light weapon around with you. Therefor the full potential of a clone is not being underutilized by the system.
Dominus Fatali Nox Aeterna Security 68	Posted - 2013.04.25 00:22:00 - [8] - Quote Ops Fox wrote: Something I would like to point out is a weapon should be compared to other weapons in its class in this case the SMG. Which still leaves a huge discrepancy between the pistol and the SMG which should be resolved. seeing as our SMG our more like machine pistols I think they be treated as such. Namely decrease the amount of ammo our machine pistol/SMG carry to have something more in the range of 5000 DPS and buff the amount of Ammo pistols carry to get around 5000 dps. I would also suggest doubling the MD and sniper ammo capacity so it can compete with other light weapons this way we have side arms doing around 5000 DPS Light weapons doing around 10000DPS and heavy weapons doing around 20000DPS CCP can then use this in all future weapons development directly at your argument though you have to remember the pistol is a side arm not a primary weapon it is what you fall back on and its expected that you will normally be carrying a light weapon around with you. Therefor the full potential of a clone is not being underutilized by the system. Just a quick note, those values were damage without resupply, with no headshots. 5000 DPS on anything would be terrifyingly overpowered.
Ops Fox ZionTCD 214	Posted - 2013.04.25 00:25:00 - [9] - Quote Im aware of those were the stats that were posting. If my wording suggested a bullet or even a single clip with that much DPS forgive me.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 896	Posted - 2013.04.25 03:59:00 - [10] - Quote Straight across measurements are inaccurate. Some weapons are sidearms, some are close range, some long, some have variable damage (the LR, MD, Forge and to a lessor extent the SMG, HMG, and shotty). Some have different efficiency ratings against armor or shields (or vehicles and infantry, or both). Still others have bonus to heatshot damage, which is non-trivial when the bonus damage spread between weapons is more than 200%. Then there's fitting requirements, both the CPU/PG of the weapon and the slot it takes up, a Heavy weapon takes a slot that is open to only one type of suit, that suit is balanced around providing some extra punch because the heavy weapon slot is an asset, flatten all utility and the suits have to be rebalanced to compensate (assuming that the Heavy weren't already a bit UP which honestly it is). Since these things also effect the drop suit they're on you have to consider mitigating factors such as the speed and hit box that come along with the HGM, as well as the range of other weapons in question like the LR, MD, and AR. Proper balance is having each weapon excel within it's selective battlefield niche and lose effectiveness outside of that (no hip fire point blank sniping for the masses ). This maintains diversity and helps overall game health, homogenizing weapons (or other gear) isn't the way to go. 0.02 ISK Cross

Ulysses Knapse Nuevo Atlas Corporation 330	Posted - 2013.04.25 05:47:00 - [11] - Quote Indeed. I have yet to run out of ammunition with an Assault Rifle or Heavy Machine Gun, yet I require a nanohive with me at all times whenever I snipe, and I can only use a Scrambler Pistol for so long. Aren't snipers supposed to require less logistical support?
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 418	Posted - 2013.04.26 04:49:00 - [12] - Quote Ops Fox wrote: Something I would like to point out is a weapon should be compared to other weapons in its class in this case the SMG. Which still leaves a huge discrepancy between the pistol and the SMG which should be resolved. seeing as our SMG our more like machine pistols I think they be treated as such. Namely decrease the amount of ammo our machine pistol/SMG carry to have something more in the range of 5000 DPS and buff the amount of Ammo pistols carry to get around 5000 dps. I would also suggest doubling the MD and sniper ammo capacity so it can compete with other light weapons this way we have side arms doing around 5000 DPS Light weapons doing around 10000DPS and heavy weapons doing around 20000DPS CCP can then use this in all future weapons development directly at your argument though you have to remember the pistol is a side arm not a primary weapon it is what you fall back on and its expected that you will normally be carrying a light weapon around with you. Therefor the full potential of a clone is not being underutilized by the system. Point of note. Pistols are considered Sidearms. But in a lot of cases, SMGs are actually in most militaries, considered main weapons. And for Some forces, such as Police etc, Pistols are your main weapon. Main-lining Pistols with a Side in AV should be a viable Option. As I'm stating here, this is not a vote to nerf or buff any weapon.. This is to increase the 'reserve' ammunitiuons each has. This will not destroy any role they hjave, but bring into line the long-term survivability each weapon has before re-supply. Not forcing People to Carry nanohives JUST to resupply themselves.


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