DUST Search - why does CCP nerf and have no love for heavies!?!?

Lord-of-the-Dreadfort wrote:

Cosgar wrote:

I think that on paper, the heavy was originally designed to be the ultimate AV class. That's why in earlier builds they had such an insane HP pool because they were supposed to be able to go to-to-toe with HAV. But with the HMG, heavies were also an overly effective anti-infantry class and became unbalanced.
Outside of something that's outright game breaking, I've been against nerfing and instead establishing an effective counter. Heavies should have kept their high HP, but been suspectable to AV. Imagine if swarm launchers, AV grenades and proximity mines were able to target them, but scaled down for the sake of balance. Heavies would still be the intended AV class, but be at the mercy of more weapons than any other infantry class while adding incentive for players to use AV. This could have been a better choice instead of what wound up happening.

that sounds like something that requores coding, and CCP is lazy as hell.

"the heavy is unbalanced, here, i have a great way to fix it"

"naw, far easier to just reduce all their stats and make them useless, AND that will make the assault suit guys love us, we're doing that"


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Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 52	Posted - 2013.04.22 05:15:00 - [1] - Quote I think that on paper, the heavy was originally designed to be the ultimate AV class. That's why in earlier builds they had such an insane HP pool because they were supposed to be able to go to-to-toe with HAV. But with the HMG, heavies were also an overly effective anti-infantry class and became unbalanced. Outside of something that's outright game breaking, I've been against nerfing and instead establishing an effective counter. Heavies should have kept their high HP, but been suspectable to AV. Imagine if swarm launchers, AV grenades and proximity mines were able to target them, but scaled down for the sake of balance. Heavies would still be the intended AV class, but be at the mercy of more weapons than any other infantry class while adding incentive for players to use AV. This could have been a better choice instead of what wound up happening.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 52	Posted - 2013.04.22 05:34:00 - [2] - Quote Lord-of-the-Dreadfort wrote: Cosgar wrote: I think that on paper, the heavy was originally designed to be the ultimate AV class. That's why in earlier builds they had such an insane HP pool because they were supposed to be able to go to-to-toe with HAV. But with the HMG, heavies were also an overly effective anti-infantry class and became unbalanced. Outside of something that's outright game breaking, I've been against nerfing and instead establishing an effective counter. Heavies should have kept their high HP, but been suspectable to AV. Imagine if swarm launchers, AV grenades and proximity mines were able to target them, but scaled down for the sake of balance. Heavies would still be the intended AV class, but be at the mercy of more weapons than any other infantry class while adding incentive for players to use AV. This could have been a better choice instead of what wound up happening. that sounds like something that requores coding, and CCP is lazy as hell. "the heavy is unbalanced, here, i have a great way to fix it" "naw, far easier to just reduce all their stats and make them useless, AND that will make the assault suit guys love us, we're doing that" This happens in a lot of games unfortunately, but sometimes something that needs to be nerfed winds up breaking the games overall balance. I still remember the huge imbalance that occurred in Guild Wars when nightfall came out. One specific skill that was game breakingly overpowered changed the whole approach to debuffs in PVP for an entire year. Eventually, a meta game that would have made EVE jealous went on when instead of the skill getting nerfed, everything else got nerfed making everything overly complicated. In the end, that skill got nerfed, but the huge mess it created still lingered, ruining how players approached PVP. In Dust's case, I still believe a sharper scissors to the heavy's paper would have been the better choice.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 53	Posted - 2013.04.22 05:56:00 - [3] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I don't think the plasma cannon going to be an effective counter for heavies its a one shot mass driver meant for tanks with a charge pre-requisite, if you cant down the idiot in the time he lets it go that charge you deserve to die just as much to a forge gunner. and I agree with the statement about the scouts, out of all suits they're the most frustrating as a simple mistake does get you killed, and further more the game itself does account for a larger number of scout deaths than any other class. If I was a heavy, I'd be more worried about the Flaylock. At least you guys get sentinel suits. Despite all their issues, Scouts can be a real game changer and outright scary. It's one of those polar classes where they're either horrible, or insanely powerful, but with no middle ground based on the player's skill. Out of all the things I've died to that aren't assault rifles, it's a scout with an insanely low signature getting behind me. By the time I hear that "Poing!" I'm already selecting a new fitting. I'm a full-time logi but also dabble in scout since the dragonfly BPO is more economically sound than using ISK for my Type-II/B-Series for my "hack and jack" skirmish build. The low scan radius, better sensors, high speed and stamina open up different levels of creativity along the lines of laying uplinks in strategic areas, point camping, and stealing instillations inside enemy territory with a codebraker. I usually use the fitting for fun, but it turns out to be really effective and can generate as much, if not more WP than my logistics fittings do. Also, 3 shotgun scouts running together with nanite injectors, uplinks, and remote explosives are the devil...
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 53	Posted - 2013.04.22 06:07:00 - [4] - Quote Funny, when I play with heavies, they never seem to have trouble mowing people down and averaging 20+ kills a match. When I'm around, they get access to a full resupply on demand, tons of heals from my love beam, revived with 50% armor, cooked flux grenades thrown at the enemy so they can kill even faster, and covering fire from a mass driver.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 53	Posted - 2013.04.22 06:18:00 - [5] - Quote AFK Godfather wrote: Cosgar wrote: Funny, when I play with heavies, they never seem to have trouble mowing people down and averaging 20+ kills a match. When I'm around, they get access to a full resupply on demand, tons of heals from my love beam, revived with 50% armor, cooked flux grenades thrown at the enemy so they can kill even faster, and covering fire from a mass driver. pub games... lol Not really a place where you would balance weapons / classes / vehicles. Unfortunately, that's the only place where I get to regularly play with heavies. I swear my corp is 300+ Scouts, Assaults, Tankers, and Logibros. I think the one heavy that was with us switched to Logi because of running into the the same problems you guys do. Not to mention all the existing logibros and tankers that want to respec into assault and assaults that want to respec into tankers. I have a sinking feelng there's going to be a lot of dead assaults and blown up tanks in uprising...
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 53	Posted - 2013.04.22 06:27:00 - [6] - Quote Another Heavy SOB wrote: Cosgar wrote: Funny, when I play with heavies, they never seem to have trouble mowing people down and averaging 20+ kills a match. When I'm around, they get access to a full resupply on demand, tons of heals from my love beam, revived with 50% armor, cooked flux grenades thrown at the enemy so they can kill even faster, and covering fire from a mass driver. Yea mowing down militia to basic fits, but put a PRO heavy against a PRO assault with 450-500 shields and the heavy will lose every single time, even with your love beam planted firmly in his ass. Not to mention the heavy spent 2 or 3x as much ISK. Sorry but in my opinion I shouldn't need a babysitter to successfully run an armor tanked heavy suit. Does a armor tank need a personal babysitter to keep their armor up? You're argument for heavys being balanced is that they should have a babysitter at all times....really dude? Quote: #8 Posted: 2013.04.22 05:15 \| Report \| by: Cosgar I think that on paper, the heavy was originally designed to be the ultimate AV class. That's why in earlier builds they had such an insane HP pool because they were supposed to be able to go to-to-toe with HAV. But with the HMG, heavies were also an overly effective anti-infantry class and became unbalanced. Outside of something that's outright game breaking, I've been against nerfing and instead establishing an effective counter. Heavies should have kept their high HP, but been suspectable to AV. Imagine if swarm launchers, AV grenades and proximity mines were able to target them, but scaled down for the sake of balance. Heavies would still be the intended AV class, but be at the mercy of more weapons than any other infantry class while adding incentive for players to use AV. This could have been a better choice instead of what wound up happening. ^ This was my initial post in the thread. I'm a strong advocate against the nerf hammer being used on non-gamebreaking exploits. I've always seen it as a sign of establishing balance through general laziness.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 53	Posted - 2013.04.22 06:54:00 - [7] - Quote Another Heavy SOB wrote: I saw that post, I then posted an idea to bring heavys to a state somewhat resembling balanced and rather than comment on or critique the idea you essentially respond with "Its fine as is, roll with a good logi like me". Look, I don't want anything to get nerfed in this game. How often do you see something about ARs being OP, or "OMFG I have 700HP but died to 3 bullets from a GEK!" Threads? And if you do, how many of them are full of AR elitists saying "HTFU!" or working as intended? Everything that isn't a frontline shield tanking assault with an AR that gets nerfed is one step to turning Dust into another kitten CoD clone in my eyes. Tanks were the badass deathwagons they were supposed to be early beta because CoD-ers were too lazy to level up a kitten swarm launcher or get some kitten AV grenades. They **** and moan about the mass driver when it's been buffed to be actually useable, nothing is safe from their redundant idiocy and undying lust to turn this into Generic FPS #394394. Heavies got a bad rap, but you have to take advantage of what you have, even if you need a guy in a rusty armor with a beam up your ass 24/7. If you don't they win!
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 76	Posted - 2013.04.23 01:53:00 - [8] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: They're not buffing heavies at all, they're nerfing them even more, making them 10x the joke they are today. Heavy machine guns? Useless. Forge guns? Useless. The entire assault class? Still overused and abused. You ever going to tell me how much SP you have invested in HAV or your tank fitting?
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 76	Posted - 2013.04.23 02:04:00 - [9] - Quote KryptixX wrote: XeroTheBigBoss wrote: KryptixX wrote: Heavies are the go to noob class, lots of health lots of bullets. Proto heavy is worthless. If Proto Heavy got anymore than a buff it would take like 2-3 clips to kill one. Heavies are fine as is. They are Heavy NOT Tank. Are you using standard gear? Douvolles would still be able to take them down in 1-2 clips. Is a 3rd low slot and price cut too much to ask for? ARs are the the real elephant in the room. We all know they're broken, but the AR elitists don't want to talk about it.