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Keyser Soze VerbalKint IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 89	Posted - 2013.04.20 18:54:00 - [1] - Quote I ask the CPM board to each convey their thoughts and opinions on the matter https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=69714&find=unread https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=69720&find=unread I have seen a few posts like this but in different iterations in the end i consider them all apart of the same topic GEAR BAlLANCING FYI 4 i repeat 4 Starter SL with dmg mod stack is loling every tank in this game, Take 8 starter AV fits(which everyone has) and it smashes any tank that even thinks of sticking its head out. Why doesnt this happen because well "bluedots" and crap comm channel setting defaults so you cant even instruct someone to go and do it real quick. But anyone with half a brain can destroy tanks in their current iteration in pubs and this is most evident in CB's Where tanks go down in flaming balls of glory to just one ultra specialized AV player and perhaps just 1-2 others who have AV nades hanging around but aren't actively tank hunting. Fact that all tanks were balanced to pubs and to the starter and std levels is why the game continues to have issues. It isnt just tanks its everything.When you take a skill baed progression model and balance the weaponry around the lowest levels of gear you are going to create imbalances at the higher end because inevitably the active and passive skills are a confounding varialbe that isn't being accounted for in the equation. Sooner people wake up to that fact and stop trying to hand hold the noobie so they too can participate right away at the upper levels of the game and at the same time create a risk/reward system (NOT BASED ON ISK AS THE DETTERANT) that deters the use of Upper level gear in pub matches this game will continue to suck at the highest levels of the game(FW, PC etc) An example solution i heard that would allow a greater level of upper tier balancing without preventing the complete noobstomp that would occur when you had the previous iterations of proto suits that could take on entire squads of anything less and not get touched by them. But since there was no other place to use them they got nerfed to preserve the sanity of the noobs who all shared the same space. One of the more interesting ideas ive come across is META level or fitting LEVEL restriction i have heard so far is the best idea ive heard yet to create a defacto security status high/low/null type sectors. For those that say that goes against sandbox answer me this how does nullsec/lowsec/highsec work in EVE i know ppl can go and burn jita and what not but there are measures in place that can quickly deter them. Now you could try matchmaking based on SP level but that just fragments the player base and would make it even that much harder to find matches. Gear restriction may go against everything the sandbox stands for but you have to make compromises somewhere and trying to balance the game so it appeals to the casual and the hardcore by making the starter gear as or nearly as effective as end game gear is exactly why these issues keep popping up in different forms. As an FPS enthusiast the idea that a new FPS player cant just join day 1 and start to play at the highest level of the games really hurts. but really noone is preventing ppl from joining they simply would be outgunned. Gear for better or worse is going to be a factor the point should be the balance should be around when 2 ppl of equal gear face off then skill becomes the predominant factor but for better or worse this game is a MMO too and that means there are more considerations to balancing weaponry than just the weapon stats themselves like in any other FPS. Remember there was once a lot of forum discussion about highsec/lowsec/nullsec and how the current imbalances in gear differences would be balanced once CCP gave us those additonal arenas to play in. Well now they are coming(most of them) so can we start going back to the old way of thinking about gear differences and come up with more intelligent ways to prevent/limit the veteran noobstomp that would occur in pubs(what i consider and many to be highsec type gameplay? I would love for the CPM candidates to express their own thought and opinions on the matter though personally they are irrelevant to the discussion to a degree since really they are here to take the communities thoughts on the matter to CCP. But never the less i thought id pitch this to you to give you all ample opportunity to talk about DUST with us and give a bit more insight into your own visons of the game to better facilitate collaboration with the community.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2638	Posted - 2013.04.20 19:05:00 - [2] - Quote Just keep in mind that the CPM are going to be fairly busy, and probably won't always be able to indulge in responding to threads like this, so if they don't or only slightly respond, I wouldn't be too offended. Anywho, just my 2 ISK.
KryptixX Imperfects Negative-Feedback 385	Posted - 2013.04.20 19:13:00 - [3] - Quote Yea, they don't have time for the likes of you, peasant.
Keyser Soze VerbalKint IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 89	Posted - 2013.04.20 19:13:00 - [4] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Just keep in mind that the CPM are going to be fairly busy, and probably won't always be able to indulge in responding to threads like this, so if they don't or only slightly respond, I wouldn't be too offended. Anywho, just my 2 ISK. I don't. But given all the CPM this and CPM that threads. I figure let me give em a easy pitch to talk about a gameplay dynamic that really was at the forefront of this fourm for a very long time and showcase exactly why they were tapped in the first place. Sometimes you just have to give people a forum pun intended to shine.
Django Quik R.I.f.t 351	Posted - 2013.04.20 19:22:00 - [5] - Quote CPM 0 is primarily there to get the CPM set up and running effectively for future CPMs. Gameplay mechanics are something that will be very secondary to their concerns until that is sorted. As for any kind of balancing, that will be extremely secondary or even not on their agenda whatsoever - they'll be better able to serve us all on higher level issues anyway.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3590	Posted - 2013.04.20 19:54:00 - [6] - Quote I can't comment due to the nature of the next expansion literally destroying every balance concept on the table. Everything including vehicles are getting their own set of bonuses and majority of the skills have been reworked. I can safely say that most of us are going have to relearn how to do use, fit, gear, and play our classes again.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 913	Posted - 2013.04.20 20:11:00 - [7] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I can't comment due to the nature of the next expansion literally destroying every balance concept on the table. Everything including vehicles are getting their own set of bonuses and majority of the skills have been reworked. I can safely say that most of us are going have to relearn how to do use, fit, gear, and play our classes again. My prediction is there will be massive complaints about race's suit needs to be nerfed vs the other races suit of the same class. Once the next patch hits and respeccing woes are done with I can then give you a refreshed view. I'd put money on that. Same with the new weapons.
Keyser Soze VerbalKint IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 89	Posted - 2013.04.20 20:23:00 - [8] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I can't comment due to the nature of the next expansion literally destroying every balance concept on the table. Everything including vehicles are getting their own set of bonuses and majority of the skills have been reworked. I can safely say that most of us are going have to relearn how to do use, fit, gear, and play our classes again. My prediction is there will be massive complaints about race's suit needs to be nerfed vs the other races suit of the same class. Sadly im inclined to agree with you. But these are smaller symptoms of a larger issue. That being where is the balance point tuned to. Now i understand you opinions on tanks needed good infantry support thats a fair point. Im more curious where individual think we should try to balance the game around. If you balance around the starting level gear you risk that balance being thrown off at the higher tiers but it gives everyone a equal chance right away to succeed in terms of FPS outcomes. IF you balance toward the end points then starter gear and thus newer players by extension become disadvantaged to verteran players(much like any other MMO). This hurst the FPS aspect of the game some would argue because it hurts FPS types who want to get into the mix of the highest levels of the game FW/PC would arguably that arena next build. Additionally when using ISK as the deterrant to try and prevent those types of players who are essentially godlike because of gear(something that would drive a FPS purist up a wall in a shooter) from noobstomping in pubs where the newer players are to be found in lesser gear it creates a unfair and hostile environment since ultimately the wealthiest of players/corps can afford to run that gear becauase the bank accounts are so large it doesnt affect them. The solution to this was meta level restrictions that would still allow flexbility in what a person uses in terms of gear but is stringent enough that it doesnt become an insurmountable challenge for a newer player in inferior gear. Thus treating pubs like highsec. FW as lowsec and PC as nullsec(thought it would eventually migrate back to lowsec once real nullsec drops) so it creates a true progresssion level that attracts the veteran players to the higher level challenges in terms of gear, people, and as a result rewards in form of ISK and Gear. Point is we used to have gear that was of higher level of superiority between the gear levels and it was nerfed down because the only playground we had were pubs so it needed to be changed or new players would come and leave to every protobear they encounter. Now with FW and PC finally coming we can start thinking about going back to that model of gear differences and look to balance the game toward the higher tier gear since veteran players will get sucked out to those arenas. Should they want to go back and play pubs as ppl want to do, the meta level restriction allows flexibility to keep it sandbox but not so open that it destroys any sort of chance a new player would have against a vet thus protecting the integrity of the FPS mindset. Moreover even in FPS this is the natural progression of competitive play as well one begins their career in pubs gaining experience and levels, soon they get noticed and are picked up by a clan. They then transition to playing clan matches but not before they are trained and ready for the greater level of challenges that occur there. Anyway thanks for the response. But i hope you see my question isn't really about gameplay balancing specfics but rather the general phiolsophy of how to balance pubs to FW and PC and eventually nullsec in terms of gear tiers from starter to proto and how stark that difference should be.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 853	Posted - 2013.04.21 17:22:00 - [9] - Quote In the same line of thought as the OP, we've had endless debates on the forums and in IRC over the last year or so about this same topic. I wrote a post a few months back saying the same stuff :) Link here. As far as tanks go in your first two links, Credit to Tiel Syysch for easily the best "HAV Balance" proposal I have seen to date. This post is a reference to a pretty awesome and detailed email he sent to CCP (I asked Tiel to send me a copy too) which he should totally repost as a google doc as the forum thread does not do the proposal justice as he paraphrased and cut a lot out. I tend to agree, they've been balancing the game around giving brand new players a chance in instant battles against dudes rocking prototype gear... Which is kind of a mistake. A year or so ago, suit HP went up a fair chunk based on tiers. Without any modules a proto suit would have a tad more HP than a standard suit loaded with HP mods. Even with this health advantage, a good player in trash gear still easily won against a bad player in good gear. To that respect, I honestly don't think it matters all that much how they balance the game when it comes down to noobs vs 'pros'. In the FPS genre, player skill usually trumps all. If they really don't want vets stomping brand new players in better gear... The gear is not where they should focus their attention. Putting measures so that brand new players have a separate matchmaking queue (Limited by SP, Character Age, or amount of kills, etc) would be a good step, so long as a 'vet' making a new alt could opt out of that to play 'real' matches. There is also a framework for gear limitations already in the system. We used to have it but it was taken out. Basically, there was battles that were labelled like "Planet X - District 12 // SI Name [MILITIA]" and in matches like that, a player would not be able to spawn a fit that had anything higher than militia level. That included weapons, modules, equipment, and dropsuits. Adding Queue options for that in instant battle wouldn't be amiss, I think. I do think that gameplay at the high level should be more interesting than the low level, and the flattened tiers of both recent and past nerfs kind of take away from that. But the tiericide was only a small problem with balance. Balance as a whole has been well... Terrible. Throughout the entire beta, it's been bad and only really gotten worse. A month (maybe two months? I don't remember) or so ago I started an effort to help remedy that. A player balance initiative, where anyone willing could weigh in on the balance of specfic things, which would've been submitted to CCP in the hope they'd use it to drastically improve (Or at least break in other ways :P) the balance of Dust. This was put on hold while still in the early stages, after I heard that pretty much everything is going to be changing in Uprising. It didn't seem like the right time for the project. I'm giving CCP the benefit of the doubt as I don't know exactly what's being changed. Though, after the build comes out if things are still horribad I'll likely start this project anew, calling for glorious spreadsheet warriors to help.
Django Quik R.I.f.t 357	Posted - 2013.04.21 17:28:00 - [10] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: Stuff about balance... I hope all those people worried about the CPM being full of CCP butt-kissers take good note of what's been said here.

Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3603	Posted - 2013.04.21 17:46:00 - [11] - Quote See I am more about not so much balance by the numbers but more into the fun of getting shot and shooting other people. The game can get very unfun if one method of killing is vastly superior fun to use and getting shot by such not as fun. An example from Call of Duty; its not fun for people getting shot by others using the Barret 50 cal as an assault rifle. While it may be fun for the sniper its not fun for his victims usually. I would love see tanks not wind up on the end all answer to everything like they where in earlier builds but I still want to see tanks on the field for good reasons such as busting up infantry formation, destroying encampments and being a mobile wall for infantry. The Russians have it right, the smallest division in their army is a mechanized squad. 1 Tank with every group of soldiers. The best way I can see this being done is severely reducing the damage tanks do to each other and the amount of damage AV does while reducing the ability for the tank to make them not invincible. However I know there are problems with that model as well. Either way its something to continue to experiment on and get it right.
Natu Nobilis Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 63	Posted - 2013.04.21 17:51:00 - [12] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Nova Knife wrote: Stuff about balance... I hope all those people worried about the CPM being full of CCP butt-kissers take good note of what's been said here. CPM Beta stage.
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 379	Posted - 2013.04.21 17:57:00 - [13] - Quote As Mr Knife above said, in FPSs player skill rules above all, and that's how it should be in Dust as well. Dust must not have pub matches where proto geared mercs can pub stomp militia geared noobs. Now, there are two ways to get there: matchmaking or skill system design. Matchmaking can utilize gear or SP limitations, or group players in matches based on lifetime WP or SP. The problem with these is that they fit the EVE universe poorly. SP/WP limitations are hard to justify. I can see that secure space may be so tightly controlled that mercs can't bring higher than milita gear in. Even if RP/lore reasons are ignored entirely, matchmaking solutions will fragment the player base. Dust in its current state is not a high-population game, so fragmenting the player base will lengthen queues for everyone, more games need to launch without full teams, and you end up playing against the same people all the time. Things get progressively worse the higher WP/SP or better gear you get. If we some day get more game modes in addition to FW and PC, it will split the playerbase further, making MM even harder. Matchmaking in Dust needs a lot of love, but we haven't seen any improvement since August when I started. Therefore I don't see SP/WP/gear limitation as a solution in the short or medium term. I feel the best solution is to have a skill progression which is a shallow curve, ie. difference in damage output and survivability between a 100k SP character and 10m SP character can't be dramatic. Same with militia gear and proto gear. CCP did the right thing when they did just that, and Dust must not go back to the way it was - we'll see how Uprising changes things. I know you EVE players and MMORPG fans cry foul. Many don't find the notion of getting owned in a proto suit by a skilled FPS player in militia gear distasteful, and find a level playing field against MMO design principles. But Dust is an FPS first and foremost: it survives or dies based on its FPS gameplay mechanics. No FPS out there has steep character skill curves. There's a good reason for it: FPSs are about player skill, not who has the most time to put into the game, or who puts in most hours to grind for gear. Note that corp battles should be looked at separately. Also, organized corp teams will always be able to pub stomp, although this can be discouraged or eliminated with matchmaking if deemed necessary. But that's another discussion.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 737	Posted - 2013.04.21 19:20:00 - [14] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: We used to have it but it was taken out. Basically, there was battles that were labelled like "Planet X - District 12 // SI Name [MILITIA]" and in matches like that, a player would not be able to spawn a fit that had anything higher than militia level. That included weapons, modules, equipment, and dropsuits. It was on the honor system. This was never enforced by the game. You could choose a "militia" match no matter what sort of gear you had. CCPs answer to the question of how does this system work? was basically that it was up to us and what sort of player would run prototype gear in a match with a "militia" sign on the door, anyway?
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 853	Posted - 2013.04.21 19:52:00 - [15] - Quote Aighun wrote: Nova Knife wrote: We used to have it but it was taken out. Basically, there was battles that were labelled like "Planet X - District 12 // SI Name [MILITIA]" and in matches like that, a player would not be able to spawn a fit that had anything higher than militia level. That included weapons, modules, equipment, and dropsuits. It was on the honor system. This was never enforced by the game. You could choose a "militia" match no matter what sort of gear you had. CCPs answer to the question of how does this system work? was basically that it was up to us and what sort of player would run prototype gear in a match with a "militia" sign on the door, anyway? I'm pretty sure that while you could get into those games, all of your fits that were higher than the level indicated in the browser, would just be invalid and you'd be unable to spawn with them.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 738	Posted - 2013.04.21 20:11:00 - [16] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: Aighun wrote: Nova Knife wrote: We used to have it but it was taken out. Basically, there was battles that were labelled like "Planet X - District 12 // SI Name [MILITIA]" and in matches like that, a player would not be able to spawn a fit that had anything higher than militia level. That included weapons, modules, equipment, and dropsuits. It was on the honor system. This was never enforced by the game. You could choose a "militia" match no matter what sort of gear you had. CCPs answer to the question of how does this system work? was basically that it was up to us and what sort of player would run prototype gear in a match with a "militia" sign on the door, anyway? I'm pretty sure that while you could get into those games, all of your fits that were higher than the level indicated in the browser, would just be invalid and you'd be unable to spawn with them. Take a moment to review this thread. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=248905#post248905 CCP Wolfman explains about the honor system for the battle choices you seem to be referring to. This was during the lead up to the introduction of the matchmaking system via algorithm for instant battles that we may or may not have today. This might have been before we even had anything like "Instant Battle" but my memory on the exact timeline there is a little fuzzy. But I am fairly certain we have never had any sort of level banding or separation of players by gear, SP, time in game, or any other metric.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 853	Posted - 2013.04.21 20:22:00 - [17] - Quote I don't know. I'm -pretty- sure that the gear restrictions were functional... But we did have a lot of bugs related to invalid stuff back then! Shudder I could be wrong though. Even if I am.. Actually restricting like implied in the earlier post isn't a bad idea, I think!
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 738	Posted - 2013.04.21 21:30:00 - [18] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: I don't know. I'm -pretty- sure that the gear restrictions were functional... But we did have a lot of bugs related to invalid stuff back then! Shudder I could be wrong though. Even if I am.. Actually restricting like implied in the earlier post isn't a bad idea, I think! Yeah, something needs to be done, for sure. From the very first day I logged on to the forums during closed beta until today I have read hundreds, maybe even thousands of posts about how to go about structuring the game so it is engaging and satisfying for old and new players, pros and casuals, strategist spread sheet nerds and thumb jocks. The same problem. We all knew this was going to be a problem. That it has been a problem. And it is still a problem. Same basic thread over and over again. Lot of great proposed solutions, some not so great proposed solutions. Some of them were ideas I put forth. A few suggestions among thousands. End result to date: the instant battle match making system has not done what it was purported to do. Hopefully now that the philosophy of skill progression for Dust has be finalized, it can become part of a foundation for providing meaningful experiences for players at all levels of the game. I am not sure that having hard restrictions that separate players from each other for Instant Battles is the answer. But simply hoping expanded faction warfare and planetary conquest will solve the problems with matchmaking is not the way forward.


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