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Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
89
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Posted - 2013.04.20 18:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
I ask the CPM board to each convey their thoughts and opinions on the matter
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=69714&find=unread
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=69720&find=unread
I have seen a few posts like this but in different iterations in the end i consider them all apart of the same topic
GEAR BAlLANCING
FYI 4 i repeat 4 Starter SL with dmg mod stack is loling every tank in this game,
Take 8 starter AV fits(which everyone has) and it smashes any tank that even thinks of sticking its head out. Why doesnt this happen because well "bluedots" and crap comm channel setting defaults so you cant even instruct someone to go and do it real quick. But anyone with half a brain can destroy tanks in their current iteration in pubs and this is most evident in CB's
Where tanks go down in flaming balls of glory to just one ultra specialized AV player and perhaps just 1-2 others who have AV nades hanging around but aren't actively tank hunting.
Fact that all tanks were balanced to pubs and to the starter and std levels is why the game continues to have issues. It isnt just tanks its everything.When you take a skill baed progression model and balance the weaponry around the lowest levels of gear you are going to create imbalances at the higher end because inevitably the active and passive skills are a confounding varialbe that isn't being accounted for in the equation.
Sooner people wake up to that fact and stop trying to hand hold the noobie so they too can participate right away at the upper levels of the game and at the same time create a risk/reward system (NOT BASED ON ISK AS THE DETTERANT) that deters the use of Upper level gear in pub matches this game will continue to suck at the highest levels of the game(FW, PC etc)
An example solution i heard that would allow a greater level of upper tier balancing without preventing the complete noobstomp that would occur when you had the previous iterations of proto suits that could take on entire squads of anything less and not get touched by them. But since there was no other place to use them they got nerfed to preserve the sanity of the noobs who all shared the same space.
One of the more interesting ideas ive come across is
META level or fitting LEVEL restriction i have heard so far is the best idea ive heard yet to create a defacto security status high/low/null type sectors. For those that say that goes against sandbox answer me this how does nullsec/lowsec/highsec work in EVE i know ppl can go and burn jita and what not but there are measures in place that can quickly deter them.
Now you could try matchmaking based on SP level but that just fragments the player base and would make it even that much harder to find matches. Gear restriction may go against everything the sandbox stands for but you have to make compromises somewhere and trying to balance the game so it appeals to the casual and the hardcore by making the starter gear as or nearly as effective as end game gear is exactly why these issues keep popping up in different forms.
As an FPS enthusiast the idea that a new FPS player cant just join day 1 and start to play at the highest level of the games really hurts. but really noone is preventing ppl from joining they simply would be outgunned. Gear for better or worse is going to be a factor the point should be the balance should be around when 2 ppl of equal gear face off then skill becomes the predominant factor but for better or worse this game is a MMO too and that means there are more considerations to balancing weaponry than just the weapon stats themselves like in any other FPS. Remember there was once a lot of forum discussion about highsec/lowsec/nullsec and how the current imbalances in gear differences would be balanced once CCP gave us those additonal arenas to play in. Well now they are coming(most of them) so can we start going back to the old way of thinking about gear differences and come up with more intelligent ways to prevent/limit the veteran noobstomp that would occur in pubs(what i consider and many to be highsec type gameplay?
I would love for the CPM candidates to express their own thought and opinions on the matter though personally they are irrelevant to the discussion to a degree since really they are here to take the communities thoughts on the matter to CCP. But never the less i thought id pitch this to you to give you all ample opportunity to talk about DUST with us and give a bit more insight into your own visons of the game to better facilitate collaboration with the community. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
89
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 19:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Just keep in mind that the CPM are going to be fairly busy, and probably won't always be able to indulge in responding to threads like this, so if they don't or only slightly respond, I wouldn't be too offended.
Anywho, just my 2 ISK.
I don't. But given all the CPM this and CPM that threads. I figure let me give em a easy pitch to talk about a gameplay dynamic that really was at the forefront of this fourm for a very long time and showcase exactly why they were tapped in the first place.
Sometimes you just have to give people a forum pun intended to shine.
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Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
89
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Posted - 2013.04.20 20:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I can't comment due to the nature of the next expansion literally destroying every balance concept on the table.
Everything including vehicles are getting their own set of bonuses and majority of the skills have been reworked.
I can safely say that most of us are going have to relearn how to do use, fit, gear, and play our classes again.
My prediction is there will be massive complaints about race's suit needs to be nerfed vs the other races suit of the same class.
Sadly im inclined to agree with you. But these are smaller symptoms of a larger issue. That being where is the balance point tuned to. Now i understand you opinions on tanks needed good infantry support thats a fair point. Im more curious where individual think we should try to balance the game around.
If you balance around the starting level gear you risk that balance being thrown off at the higher tiers but it gives everyone a equal chance right away to succeed in terms of FPS outcomes. IF you balance toward the end points then starter gear and thus newer players by extension become disadvantaged to verteran players(much like any other MMO). This hurst the FPS aspect of the game some would argue because it hurts FPS types who want to get into the mix of the highest levels of the game FW/PC would arguably that arena next build. Additionally when using ISK as the deterrant to try and prevent those types of players who are essentially godlike because of gear(something that would drive a FPS purist up a wall in a shooter) from noobstomping in pubs where the newer players are to be found in lesser gear it creates a unfair and hostile environment since ultimately the wealthiest of players/corps can afford to run that gear becauase the bank accounts are so large it doesnt affect them. The solution to this was meta level restrictions that would still allow flexbility in what a person uses in terms of gear but is stringent enough that it doesnt become an insurmountable challenge for a newer player in inferior gear.
Thus treating pubs like highsec. FW as lowsec and PC as nullsec(thought it would eventually migrate back to lowsec once real nullsec drops) so it creates a true progresssion level that attracts the veteran players to the higher level challenges in terms of gear, people, and as a result rewards in form of ISK and Gear.
Point is we used to have gear that was of higher level of superiority between the gear levels and it was nerfed down because the only playground we had were pubs so it needed to be changed or new players would come and leave to every protobear they encounter. Now with FW and PC finally coming we can start thinking about going back to that model of gear differences and look to balance the game toward the higher tier gear since veteran players will get sucked out to those arenas. Should they want to go back and play pubs as ppl want to do, the meta level restriction allows flexibility to keep it sandbox but not so open that it destroys any sort of chance a new player would have against a vet thus protecting the integrity of the FPS mindset.
Moreover even in FPS this is the natural progression of competitive play as well one begins their career in pubs gaining experience and levels, soon they get noticed and are picked up by a clan. They then transition to playing clan matches but not before they are trained and ready for the greater level of challenges that occur there.
Anyway thanks for the response. But i hope you see my question isn't really about gameplay balancing specfics but rather the general phiolsophy of how to balance pubs to FW and PC and eventually nullsec in terms of gear tiers from starter to proto and how stark that difference should be. |
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