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Freshticles IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 50	Posted - 2013.04.16 00:11:00 - [1] - Quote After running this and a couple of alts on vehicles, I've come to the conclusion that AV has been buffed to the point where to rival HAVs they screw over LAVs and dropships. Considering even the "Best" dropships can be locked down out of their job by a single militia AV guy, and LAVs aren't even worth mentioning, something needs to change. 700k ISK for a flying paperweight, or 300k for a Ford Pinto. Not very appealing, is it? But at the same time, AV needs to challenge HAVs or we're all in for a bad time. I think it's time for a discussion!
slypie11 Planetary Response Organisation 150	Posted - 2013.04.16 00:18:00 - [2] - Quote I have noticed that vehicles and AV are very difficult to balance. Entire teams don't want to get destroyed by one tank, while tankers and dropships don't want to lose millions of isk. The easy answer for dropships and AV is to buff dropship HP, make SLs go faster but have a slightly lower turning radius, and add a countermeasure module. Tanks i'm not so sure. I mean, they're tanks, so they should be survivable, but we're 4 to 8 guys with rocket launchers and mini railguns, so we should be able to take them down. LAVs are LAVs, almost nobody invests in them, but a jeep shouldn't take a FG shot and live, unless it's thoroughly tanked. The reason they always explode is people call in the free ones.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative 142	Posted - 2013.04.16 00:26:00 - [3] - Quote LAV and dropship specify modules that require skill in driving to unlock. that's my idea, the end
ATR Kuan Ti Red Star. EoN. 64	Posted - 2013.04.16 00:29:00 - [4] - Quote its all in how you fit it ive seen LAVs take 4 sets of proto swarms to take down and thats all 4 sets have to hit right after each other and dropships take 2 hits from a lvl 4 rail HAV and live thats crazy HAV can be godly with the right fit AV is ez to spec into and youse so if you dont know what your doing or how to spec an HAV LAV Dropship most likely you will lose it
Freshticles IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 50	Posted - 2013.04.16 00:29:00 - [5] - Quote ladwar wrote: LAV and dropship specify modules that require skill in driving to unlock. that's my idea, the end You've never had AV on you're back in a dropship by the sounds of it. It's either run away for the rest of the match, or lose the dropship.
Freshticles IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 50	Posted - 2013.04.16 00:32:00 - [6] - Quote ATR Kuan Ti wrote: its all in how you fit it ive seen LAVs take 4 sets of proto swarms to take down and thats all 4 sets have to hit right after each other and dropships take 2 hits from a lvl 4 rail HAV and live thats crazy HAV can be godly with the right fit AV is ez to spec into and youse so if you dont know what your doing or how to spec an HAV LAV Dropship most likely you will lose it I doubt his LAV took 4 proto swarms. I can max stack a saga and only take 3 regular swarms, and that's dying on the third. Dropship is more believable, but argument is moot because that's not AV, it's a turret.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative 143	Posted - 2013.04.16 00:38:00 - [7] - Quote Freshticles wrote: ladwar wrote: LAV and dropship specify modules that require skill in driving to unlock. that's my idea, the end You've never had AV on you're back in a dropship by the sounds of it. It's either run away for the rest of the match, or lose the dropship. used to drive LAVs the good ones, now i drive HAVs so no i have tested dropships
Average Joe81 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 29	Posted - 2013.04.16 01:33:00 - [8] - Quote I posted this idea a long time ago but since it only got positive feedback it never stayed on the front page for long. An interesting way to fix this would be actually to make small railguns useful. doing so would force tanks to fit on a small railgun and then It would kill infantry slower. making everyone happier in a few more ways at the same time: 1. a new AV LAV would be created 2. we could lower AV damage as a result of lower tank damage(thus making tanks closer to dropships) 3. your typical assault guy will complain less about tanks if they get slightly stonger of course we would have to fix the other small turrets too though.
Charlotte O'Dell Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 119	Posted - 2013.04.16 05:57:00 - [9] - Quote So make active Av countermeasures.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1191	Posted - 2013.04.16 11:52:00 - [10] - Quote ATR Kuan Ti wrote: its all in how you fit it ive seen LAVs take 4 sets of proto swarms to take down and thats all 4 sets have to hit right after each other and dropships take 2 hits from a lvl 4 rail HAV and live thats crazy HAV can be godly with the right fit AV is ez to spec into and youse so if you dont know what your doing or how to spec an HAV LAV Dropship most likely you will lose it I've had a fully tanked Myron two shot by a rail HAV. It stripped all shields and dug into the armor on the first shot. That happened three times in the same match before he hit me with a second before I could get away and repair, so I know it was no double hit. You obviously weren't the one shooting or you would know what HAVs can do.

Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1191	Posted - 2013.04.16 11:57:00 - [11] - Quote I've posted threads on the problem of balancing AV, HAVs, and DSs before. It comes down to either tanking the DS like a HAV or giving it counter measures. I favor the latter with a healthy dose of skill based evasion ability to keep piloting a distinct profession rather than a simple flying LAV that anyone and his brother can do well in with no practice.
Mortedeamor Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 4	Posted - 2013.04.16 12:06:00 - [12] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=37908&find=unread RIGHT HERE FRSHY FREESH MY ONLY ISSUE WITH DUST514 assuming on may 6th they actually do manage to even av wep
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1191	Posted - 2013.04.16 12:57:00 - [13] - Quote Mortedeamor wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=37908&find=unread RIGHT HERE FRSHY FREESH MY ONLY ISSUE WITH DUST514 assuming on may 6th they actually do manage to even av wep It's wishful thinking to assume a mass of random blue dots would ever transform into a cohesive fighting unit capable of making proper use of a dropship. A kick button might deploy them, but it won't get the right squad mix into the ship, nor will it ensure they do the right thing when they get out. A dropship requires a coordinated squad and for now that means a corp squad. I suggest all pilots join an active corp which regularly fields full squads in pub matches. Anything else is an exercise in frustration.
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe Planetary Response Organisation 264	Posted - 2013.04.16 13:53:00 - [14] - Quote What we need isn't so much a nerf/buff cycle as a fundamental change to how vehicles work.
Galrick M'kron Sand Mercenary Corps Inc. 61	Posted - 2013.04.16 14:08:00 - [15] - Quote slypie11 wrote: I have noticed that vehicles and AV are very difficult to balance. Entire teams don't want to get destroyed by one tank, while tankers and dropships don't want to lose millions of isk. The easy answer for dropships and AV is to buff dropship HP, make SLs go faster but have a slightly lower turning radius, and add a countermeasure module. Tanks i'm not so sure. I mean, they're tanks, so they should be survivable, but we're 4 to 8 guys with rocket launchers and mini railguns, so we should be able to take them down. LAVs are LAVs, almost nobody invests in them, but a jeep shouldn't take a FG shot and live, unless it's thoroughly tanked. The reason they always explode is people call in the free ones. I agree with you about SLs. They should also auto-detonate after a certain time instead of a certain distance away from the shooter.
dalt ud Vacuum Cleaner. LLC 90	Posted - 2013.04.16 14:16:00 - [16] - Quote topic starter - at first try to destroy good enemy tanker with infantry in his squad, you can try it with any your gear. I will see how you will talk about any buffs. I think you will ask about buff anti-vehicle weapon.
Freshticles IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 50	Posted - 2013.04.17 20:31:00 - [17] - Quote I'm not talking about buffing HAVs Also, I killed a 5k gunnlogi today with a militia forge gun. Your point is invalid.
Ops Fox ZionTCD Legacy Rising 206	Posted - 2013.04.17 20:39:00 - [18] - Quote slypie11 wrote: I have noticed that vehicles and AV are very difficult to balance. Entire teams don't want to get destroyed by one tank, while tankers and dropships don't want to lose millions of isk. The easy answer for dropships and AV is to buff dropship HP, make SLs go faster but have a slightly lower turning radius, and add a countermeasure module. Tanks i'm not so sure. I mean, they're tanks, so they should be survivable, but we're 4 to 8 guys with rocket launchers and mini railguns, so we should be able to take them down. LAVs are LAVs, almost nobody invests in them, but a jeep shouldn't take a FG shot and live, unless it's thoroughly tanked. The reason they always explode is people call in the free ones. bolded what I agree with on the underlined bit though. No, one guy with a mini railgun can pop a tank, two guys can pop a smart tank. Im for buffing a tanks HP so it can soak up more damage and actually tank the damage rather than get blown away by a half competent FGer.
slypie11 Planetary Response Organisation 160	Posted - 2013.04.17 21:06:00 - [19] - Quote Ops Fox wrote: slypie11 wrote: I have noticed that vehicles and AV are very difficult to balance. Entire teams don't want to get destroyed by one tank, while tankers and dropships don't want to lose millions of isk. The easy answer for dropships and AV is to buff dropship HP, make SLs go faster but have a slightly lower turning radius, and add a countermeasure module. Tanks i'm not so sure. I mean, they're tanks, so they should be survivable, but we're 4 to 8 guys with rocket launchers and mini railguns, so we should be able to take them down. LAVs are LAVs, almost nobody invests in them, but a jeep shouldn't take a FG shot and live, unless it's thoroughly tanked. The reason they always explode is people call in the free ones. bolded what I agree with on the underlined bit though. No, one guy with a mini railgun can pop a tank, two guys can pop a smart tank. Im for buffing a tanks HP so it can soak up more damage and actually tank the damage rather than get blown away by a half competent FGer. The only FGer that can solo a tank is either really smart or running an advanced or proto forge with complex damage mods. Most likely the latter.
Necrodermis GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 478	Posted - 2013.04.17 22:42:00 - [20] - Quote slypie11 wrote: The only FGer that can solo a tank is either really smart or running an advanced or proto forge with complex damage mods. Most likely the latter. location location location the tanks location has to be perfect allowing you to get as many shots off as possible, your location has to be out of harms way to pump out as many shots as possible so you aren't killed instantly by one of his entourage holding an advanced weapon, and your location has to be in good line of sight so the vehicle can't hide behind the piece of indestructible shrubbery. although sometimes i can throw out as many hits on a tank as possible and they can still pull away with half shields. 9 packed AV grenades isn't quite enough for them.

Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 157	Posted - 2013.04.18 01:09:00 - [21] - Quote Maybe damage should scale according to signature profile. This is true in Eve: missiles have a blast radius and blast veocity iirc and smaller ships with fast speeds and smaller radii compared to the radius of a given missile take reduced damage. On a side note, I think scout suit should take reduced damage from explosives - it's a bit ridiculous that you get bow to pieces from a single militia grenade.
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 157	Posted - 2013.04.18 01:47:00 - [22] - Quote Don't you guys think that LAVs and Dropships get dropped so easy becausee of the way they are used? Dropships are always in the sky begging to be dropped instead of hiding most of the game and only emerging to quickly shuttle squads to an objective - the latter being a wiser tactic. In the case of LAV's I see they are most often used GTA style - some guy driving circles on Manus peak, which is a very small map just waiting to be dropped by an AV grenade. These unsofisticated tactics end up in vehicle kills. Of course, it can be argued that the other more careful tactics don't pay off or are not as fun to play but they can definitely be a huge asset to the team and will end up in vehicle preservation.
Mossellia Delt Militaires Sans Jeux 1	Posted - 2013.04.18 12:19:00 - [23] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: Don't you guys think that LAVs and Dropships get dropped so easy becausee of the way they are used? Nope, my alt has under 200k Sp in AV and cant take out 99% of dropships in a single hit, if thats not OP Im not sure what is. AV is extremely overpowered its unfunny. My alt and another corpmate both using level 2 forgeguns (breach) can take out almost any vehicle no matter how good the fit is and the driver is in under 30 seconds. While that may be on part from player skill, that is only a minor part of it.
Mortedeamor Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 4	Posted - 2013.04.18 13:00:00 - [24] - Quote ATR Kuan Ti wrote: its all in how you fit it ive seen LAVs take 4 sets of proto swarms to take down and thats all 4 sets have to hit right after each other and dropships take 2 hits from a lvl 4 rail HAV and live thats crazy HAV can be godly with the right fit AV is ez to spec into and youse so if you dont know what your doing or how to spec an HAV LAV Dropship most likely you will lose it not possible just so u know a proto swarm skilled up 1-2 shots any lav period i have swarms maxed out as well as lav's and hav's and my friend has th same in dropships ....a proto swarm can 4 shot 5000 hp shield gunlogi ...1--2 shot any militia grade tank ..i have tested this in empty core battles ..assuming that all 6 rocket directly hit obviously
Freshticles IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 50	Posted - 2013.04.18 13:03:00 - [25] - Quote Skihids wrote: I've posted threads on the problem of balancing AV, HAVs, and DSs before. It comes down to either tanking the DS like a HAV or giving it counter measures. I favor the latter with a healthy dose of skill based evasion ability to keep piloting a distinct profession rather than a simple flying LAV that anyone and his brother can do well in with no practice. My personal opinion: Swarms don't take "skill" to lock a target, so why should breaking the lock require it?
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe Planetary Response Organisation 271	Posted - 2013.04.18 13:23:00 - [26] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: Dropships are always in the sky begging to be dropped instead of hiding most of the game and only emerging to quickly shuttle squads to an objective - the latter being a wiser tactic. Boy, that sounds like a fun way to play.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 45	Posted - 2013.04.18 17:24:00 - [27] - Quote Skihids wrote: I've had a fully tanked Myron two shot by a rail HAV. It stripped all shields and dug into the armor on the first shot. That happened three times in the same match before he hit me with a second before I could get away and repair, so I know it was no double hit. You obviously weren't the one shooting or you would know what HAVs can do. How many hp does your fit have? I know I have, several times, been removed of 6000 hp in one shot.
Freshticles IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 51	Posted - 2013.04.19 00:39:00 - [28] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Skihids wrote: I've had a fully tanked Myron two shot by a rail HAV. It stripped all shields and dug into the armor on the first shot. That happened three times in the same match before he hit me with a second before I could get away and repair, so I know it was no double hit. You obviously weren't the one shooting or you would know what HAVs can do. How many hp does your fit have? I know I have, several times, been removed of 6000 hp in one shot. Sounds like a glass cannon gunnlogi
Grimmiers ZionTCD 162	Posted - 2013.04.19 02:46:00 - [29] - Quote AV grenades should only be able to track tanks or not track at all. The only bonus an anti vehicle grenade should have is exploding on contact with a vehicle and doing more damage than a regular grenade. If their splash damage is 10% of their real damage then they are a bit too powerful. Packed av grenades can 2 shot a saga fitted with a booster and an azeo shield extender, yet they're smaller than a missle. In a situation where a single guy has av grenades and swarms the better option would be to just simply throw 3 powerful grenades in my general direction. What should go down is the throwing of av grenades, that need to be thrown precisely, and then the use of a swarm launcher to get me when I'm on the run. A small tweak in order to make this a reality is to make explosives do 20% less on armor and forge guns do 20% less on shields (currently the bonuses give certain weapons 130% damage). I'm not exactly sure of the calculations, but lets say a forge gun is doing approx. 1560 damage to shields with a 30% bonus. If the bonus was reduced to 110%, a forge would still be doing 1320, but with an active 30% resistance mod was activated before hand it wouldn't just simply negate the bonus damage. With resistances activated, the forge would do 960 damage instead of it's base and it last for up to 10 seconds meaning it could survive 2 shots and have some armor left for an av grenade follow up, that would in this case do 90% damage to shields with damage closer to 700 per grenade (enough to still work over armor effectively). With this nerf to av grenades I would also like to see a buff in small blasters to promote the use of smaller vehicles to assist in taking out larger ones. Perhaps a small blaster on lavs shouldn't have it's damage reduced to 40% against vehicles of all kinds. I think it works on tanks since they possibly have to compensate for the multiple turrets equipped. After testing small blaster damage on a supply depot with 100% efficiency rating I can confirm that both the driver and gunner's turrets skills stack up (the passenger is ignored). Lets say both players have maxed out turrets and operation skills, they would be doing about 60 damage per shot with an ion blaster. At 100% eff. they are doing about 853 damge per second and at 40% they are only doing 525. If a tank has about 6k total hp and no booster, or resistances activated it would still take a good amount of coordination to kill it with a single lav even at 100% efficiency. It technically would take around 7 seconds too destroy a tank, which leaves plenty of time for the tank to fight back. my 2 isk
BulletSnitcheZ TRUE TEA BAGGERS 29	Posted - 2013.04.19 11:49:00 - [30] - Quote Yes, AV is overpowered at the moment. They do a ridiculous amount of damage to vehicles while requiring no skill or teamwork at all. Hey CCP, can you tell me why AV grenades do more damage than my prototype small missile turret? Why does a militia forge gun do more damage than a prototype small railgun? I could go on forever. CCP, please do something about AV in the next build. Please make AV require more skill & teamwork to be able to destroy a 3-man tank crew.



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