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Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 122	Posted - 2013.04.09 16:47:00 - [1] - Quote My little sister just explained to me how very stupid the concept is. I have to say I think CCP should hire her. Failing that, how about removing this "feature"?
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 289	Posted - 2013.04.09 16:54:00 - [2] - Quote Obviously you're little sister hasn't been paying attention. We aren't actually using bullets. inb4 OP's mad he can't snipe with a novaknife
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 122	Posted - 2013.04.09 17:02:00 - [3] - Quote plasma doesnt work that way either. neither do lasers. and minmatar projectile weapons fire solid projectiles. derp?
Ryder Azorria Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 173	Posted - 2013.04.09 17:04:00 - [4] - Quote Bullets don't simply disappear, they dissipate over a distance - which makes much more sense. Also, gameplay > realism.
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 122	Posted - 2013.04.09 17:06:00 - [5] - Quote The problem being that its terrible gameplay.
Jotun Hiem The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 519	Posted - 2013.04.09 17:06:00 - [6] - Quote I always figured that it was due to how stupidly over-engineered our suits and clones were. At certain distances, the weapons just lose enough energy that it doesn't affect the suit anymore.
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 122	Posted - 2013.04.09 17:10:00 - [7] - Quote This is not making the concept any less stupid.
Ryder Azorria Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 173	Posted - 2013.04.09 17:19:00 - [8] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: The problem being that its terrible gameplay. It'll make more sense when we get more variation in the same weapon classes. Take the AR class for example: Gallente AR; Highest damage, lowest range Amarr Scrambler Rifle, Med damage, med range Caldari Gauss Rifle, Lowest damge, highest range If the Gallente AR could hit at all ranges, then there is no point having any of the others and you lose a bunch of gamplay choices.
Aesiron Kor-Azor Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2013.04.09 17:28:00 - [9] - Quote Plasma cools down at a rapid speed, so by the time it has been projected for 3 seconds or so it would evaporate into hot gas from an ionised state.
Vaerana Myshtana Bojo's School of the Trades 667	Posted - 2013.04.09 17:34:00 - [10] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: plasma doesnt work that way either. neither do lasers. and minmatar projectile weapons fire solid projectiles. derp? Hybrid weapons use contained plasma fields to do damage. Assault Rifles are plasma blasters. The plasma does actually dissipate. Railguns fire a semi-solid projectile, but that projectile comes apart after awhile, the range is just longer than that of a blaster. Lasers have optimal focal windows, outside of which they lose cohesion. Should the visible beam continue on indefinitely but not do damage? Sure, but it does cause load on the rendering engine. Projectiles, you are correct, should not dissipate, they should follow a ballistic (calculus) until they strike an object, but that has the same problem as the laser with the added complication of calculating force of impact (calculus) at extreme ranges. Explosives detonate at the end of their range.

Ryder Azorria Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 174	Posted - 2013.04.09 18:29:00 - [11] - Quote Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: plasma doesnt work that way either. neither do lasers. and minmatar projectile weapons fire solid projectiles. derp? Hybrid weapons use contained plasma fields to do damage. Assault Rifles are plasma blasters. The plasma does actually dissipate. Railguns fire a semi-solid projectile, but that projectile comes apart after awhile, the range is just longer than that of a blaster. Lasers have optimal focal windows, outside of which they lose cohesion. Should the visible beam continue on indefinitely but not do damage? Sure, but it does cause load on the rendering engine. Projectiles, you are correct, should not dissipate, they should follow a ballistic (calculus) until they strike an object, but that has the same problem as the laser with the added complication of calculating force of impact (calculus) at extreme ranges. Explosives detonate at the end of their range. Projectile weapon use exploding bullets that detonate on contact or after a set distance - giving you limited range, with the added bonus that the bullets actually do disappear.
Knarf Black Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 549	Posted - 2013.04.09 18:54:00 - [12] - Quote Yes, it is kind of stupid that un-upgraded SMG bullets can't even hit the ground when fired straight down from a tallish building. However, bullet drop and realistic projectile physics are difficult and resource intensive to simulate. The vast majority of video-games 'cheat' with concepts like hitscan weapons, which would behave just as unrealistically across Dust's vast maps, only in the opposite direction. The air would be thick with crisscrossing attacks and the weapons would lose a key element to differentiate them.
Wakko03 Better Hide R Die 136	Posted - 2013.04.09 18:55:00 - [13] - Quote Taking 3 steps backwards with only 2 armor HP left and noticing that the laser rifles just seemed to stop right in front of my face, PRICELESS.....getting crushed by the OMS resupply being called in earlier than I ever remember it being called in before seconds later.....INFURIATING
tribal wyvern ZionTCD Legacy Rising 720	Posted - 2013.04.09 19:06:00 - [14] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: My little sister just explained to me how very stupid the concept is. I have to say I think CCP should hire her. Failing that, how about removing this "feature"? There are no bullets in the weapons, it is plasma/energy concentrated into a projectile, therefore there are no bullets. Do your research before you criticize the game
Buster Friently Rosen Association 256	Posted - 2013.04.09 19:26:00 - [15] - Quote Knarf Black wrote: Yes, it is kind of stupid that un-upgraded SMG bullets can't even hit the ground when fired straight down from a tallish building. However, bullet drop and realistic projectile physics are difficult and resource intensive to simulate. The vast majority of video-games 'cheat' with concepts like hitscan weapons, which would behave just as unrealistically across Dust's vast maps, only in the opposite direction. The air would be thick with crisscrossing attacks and the weapons would lose a key element to differentiate them. Most of Dust's weapons are hitscan.
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 455	Posted - 2013.04.09 20:04:00 - [16] - Quote Weapon energy lasers put enough energy out the air becomes semi-opaque. After a certain distance the beam will stop on a weapon energy density laser, in the atmosphere, one in space will keep going. A similar thing happens in water with sunlight, water is transparent but after a significant amount the light is absorbed. Rail guns fire at speeds near reentry speed, they burn up like meteorites. Plasma dissipates as has been already said. Being very light and magnetic it would turn north instead of having bullet drop, that would confuse the hell out a lot people if added. Minmatar use explosive rounds, even modern cannon rounds commonly have a time fuse to detonate at a set max range. This prevents them continuing on and hitting some civilian or friendly way behind the target. It is most common on AA weapons, indirect fire cannon never use this type of round for obvious reasons. The performance hit from bullet physics on smg and hmg would be ridiculous. A low rate of fire battle rifle and Minmatar snipers with bullet physics would be nice, but most weapons it would just cause to many issues with not much benefit.
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 123	Posted - 2013.04.10 04:46:00 - [17] - Quote If I can whack my opponent over the head with the butt of my rifle a few times to penetrate their shields and kill them, I could probably also use a modern rifle which doesn't have such hilariously justified drawbacks to kill these futuristic dropsuits. The point is, the lore falls in on itself and it's a stupid mechanic from top to bottom on a gameplay front. No other FPS I'm aware of does this, nor does it try to or want to at any point in the future. That is because it is bad gameplay. You know what we do with bad gameplay? We don't dance around lore to defend it. We get rid of it.
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 455	Posted - 2013.04.10 07:21:00 - [18] - Quote Call of duty, Unreal, Doom, Wolfenstein, Borderlands, Team Fortress 2, battlefield 1942, battlefield Vietnam, Halo:Reach. Aware of none of them? It is more obvious with the large open maps we have compared to most of those games, you can see out of range enemies more often to notice it happen. Hitscan with bullets disappearing in the air is common, at least there is a lore excuse, some of those games make normal lead bullets vanish magically.
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 455	Posted - 2013.04.10 07:43:00 - [19] - Quote Plasma does dissipate, and the performance hit of realistic physics would use excessive system resources. So the ar rounds not disappointing would be unrealistic and bad for gameplay. Plasma rounds passing near each other would be repeled or attracted to each other, they would turn north more then they would drop, and they would cool and still vanish in mid air. Realistic physics would be very annoying to play with and be pain to code, to debug, and would take a huge amount of processing. Bullet travel and drop are not noticeable at the range smg and hmg have, so it would only eat resources. Making them have longer range would unbalance the game, hmg should realistically shoot much farther then redline to redline. So, current is better for both game play, coding ease, and background. What part would be improved? Minmatar rifle and sniper would have enough range bullet physics would matter. Ballistic arc, travel time, and wind affect would all be nice, so I hope those weapons will have them on their small explosive shells. Bullet vanish at max range would still be fine, we have rounds that self-destruct when the tracer burns through in real life. These are to prevent un-exploded rounds littering the ground when the war is over, if you wondered why.
blue gt Algintal Core Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2013.04.10 10:07:00 - [20] - Quote weapons work as intended, and im glad for it. now yes there is no good reason for bullet disappearance but even less reason for you to complain about it, I would rather the game run well before they worry about crap like this. also plasma would create a giant flash as all that plasma escaped containment, but what ever as long as the mechanics work I could give a **** less.

Vaerana Myshtana Bojo's School of the Trades 668	Posted - 2013.04.10 10:15:00 - [21] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: You know what we do with bad gameplay? We don't dance around lore to defend it. We get rid of it. Ok bai. I can has ur stuf?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2431	Posted - 2013.04.10 10:20:00 - [22] - Quote Thread starts as a complaint about this result being unrealistic. People explain why it's realistic or nearly so in a lot of cases in the game, and the complaint changes to "it's bad mechanics" with absolutely nothing backing up that claim. In fact, that claim is pure subjective opinion without even the possibility of a factual basis. So, prove that range limits on weapons is a bad game mechanic. When you can provide hard evidence with reasons why it shouldn't be done, we'll convince more game devs to avoid doing it.
Ulysses Knapse Nuevo Atlas Corporation 214	Posted - 2013.04.10 10:32:00 - [23] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: The problem being that its terrible gameplay. Wrong. It's actually the exact opposite. Your little sister most not understand the concept of "balance". I mean, we wouldn't people sniping with submachine guns, would we?
Fargen Icehole SyNergy Gaming EoN. 84	Posted - 2013.04.10 10:49:00 - [24] - Quote Other games don't have disappearing bullets, and they do it well. (ahem, Battlefield 3) They have bullet drop, and decreased damage over distance. It works very well. Personally the disappearing bullet thing doesn't bother me, but bullet drop would have been better.
J Lav Lost-Legion Orion Empire 52	Posted - 2013.04.10 11:55:00 - [25] - Quote The "Realistic" explanation crew forgets how far a subsonic projectile can travel in 3 seconds. The "Game Balance" reasoning seems to come from people who have never played another game. In BF for example, you can headshot someone with a pistol at a mile away, as long as the stand still long enough, and you have the skill to do it combined with an insane amount of luck. Yet, that game plays really well and is for the most part balanced. The Bullets disappearing is a very unrefined way of addressing a problem of weapon efficiency over range, however I will admit that it does address the problem, albeit in a rudimentary manner. It doesn't bother me as much as it used too, and given that there's rumours that the sharpshooter skill will be going away, I wonder if they are working on a different solution.
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 404	Posted - 2013.04.10 13:08:00 - [26] - Quote There are other ways to implement this system but I would have to admit this is the simpliest way to do it....both in programming and its the easist on the hardware. BF3 could only have 12 v 12 because of everything they put into the game. But dust already has 16 v 16 and will hopefully get to at least 32 v 32.
Ryder Azorria Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 178	Posted - 2013.04.10 13:30:00 - [27] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: There are other ways to implement this system but I would have to admit this is the simpliest way to do it....both in programming and its the easist on the hardware. BF3 could only have 12 v 12 because of everything they put into the game. But dust already has 16 v 16 and will hopefully get to at least 32 v 32. 24 v 24 in Uprising.
Michael Cratar FIREFLY ATLANTIS ENTERPRISES UNLIMITED TACNET 198	Posted - 2013.04.11 16:34:00 - [28] - Quote Ok, ill try to explain. Blasters shoot condensed plasma balls. These balls are also spun at incredible speeds by magnets. They are spun so fast that the plasma starts to condense more. gravity? once all of this is done the plasma ball is released at it target. What causes them to disperse is that the plasma eventuially loses energy in its self and it's spin. when it loses spin seed it loses it compact state and begins to disperse. Once it starts to lose its spin it will lose heat rapidly. By that point it will ether return to its gas state and disperse, or lose so much energy that it wont do damage. this has less of an effect in space, as there are no resistors that can hamper the plasma. The only way it can lose energy is by radiating its heat. Kinetic weapons use bullets like us, But waaaaaay better. Even tho that they are super advanced versions of our bullets they still have there faults. Our super advanced armor is incredible at protecting us from the environment and other weapons. With that said, There bullets need alot of energy to do any real damage. Once shot they will start to lose energy due to resistance from gravity and the atmosphere. Once the energy is low enough they wont be able to do any real damage. after a while they will lose enough energy that they will simply fall to the ground.. this dose not apply in space. As space dose not have anything that can resist the bullet, unless it hits something of course. Laser weapons are the only thing I can say are kinda silly with there range. Light is fast and can travel light years before loseing energy. The only thing I can say to make any sense of the max range is they the Amarr developed a special high energy laser that packs a punch, but loses its energy quickly. The minimum range is kinds hard to explain. Simply, the longer the beam of light. the more energy it has. Scrambler rounds are just like lasers. They shoot a super energised beam of light at there target. This beam of light is so strong that it turns the atmosphere around it into a plasma state. Due to its high energy it loses it just as fast as it gains it. If this were to be shot at a aircraft carrier. it could shoot straight through it. Forge gun rounds are very cool. they shoot a very small super energised slug at very high speeds. The electricity arcing out of it is because this slug is pumped so full of energy that it is expelling alot of it out as electricity. After being shot they will start to expell there energy. if they do not meet there mark ,hit anything, the will lose too much energy to support its solid state and explode, but will still have enough energy to explode. Instead of piercing the target, like most people think they do, they simply explode on contact. This happens because it has so much energy, alot of it is kinetic, that once it hit something. all that energy will want to escape causing a huge explosion. Only reason that the energy dose not escape when the slug is traveling is because it is being burned off as kinetic energy faster than it can explode outwards on its own. this still applies in space. Railguns are the same things as forge guns, but they shoot a bigger, lower energy slug. Railguns shoot slugs incrediably fast, and accurately. All do damage the same way as forge guns, but railguns have more of a piercing effect and less of an explosion. Missles fly around and hit things, then they explode. They auto detonate when they run out of fuel. Artillery, mass drivers atm, shoot dumb fire explosives. They auto detonate after a certen time to dispose of rounds that do not explode on contact. CCP! if I missed something let me know!
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 455	Posted - 2013.04.11 19:15:00 - [29] - Quote High energy laser cause blooming, that puts a fairly short range on the high energy lasers. In space they work like people expect. from wikipedia, bolded text and bullets added for clarity since original formatting was messed up by cut and paste. "Blooming Laser beams begin to cause plasma breakdown in the air at energy densities of around a megajoule per cubic centimeter. This effect, called "blooming," causes the laser to defocus and disperse energy into the atmosphere. Blooming can be more severe if there is fog, smoke, or dust in the air. Reducing blooming: Spread the beam across a large, curved mirror that focuses the power on the target, to keep energy density en route too low for blooming to happen. This requires a large, very precise, fragile mirror, mounted somewhat like a searchlight, requiring bulky machinery to slew the mirror to aim the laser. Use a phased array. For typical laser wavelengths this method requires billions of micrometre-size antennae. No way to make these is known. However, carbon nanotubes have been proposed. Phased arrays could theoretically also perform phase-conjugate amplification (see below). Phased arrays do not require mirrors or lenses, can be made flat and thus do not require a turret-like system (as in "spread beam") to be aimed, though range will suffer at extreme angles (that is, the angle the beam forms to the surface of the phased array).[5] Use a phase-conjugate laser system. Here, a "finder" or "guide" laser illuminates the target. Any mirror-like ("specular") points on the target reflect light that is sensed by the weapon's primary amplifier. The weapon then amplifies inverted waves in a positive feedback loop, destroying the target with shockwaves as the specular regions evaporate. This avoids blooming because the waves from the target passed through the blooming, and therefore show the most conductive optical path; this automatically corrects for the distortions caused by blooming. Experimental systems using this method usually use special chemicals to form a "phase-conjugate mirror". In most systems, the mirror overheats dramatically at weapon-useful power levels. Use a very short pulse that finishes before blooming interferes. Focus multiple lasers of relatively low power on a single target." Current laser rifle seems to use the focusing on target method at a set range. So, while counter intuitive, the laser mechanics are actually pretty accurate. Heat causing more damage fits using a molten salt based capacitor. Batteries and Capacitors have related construction, molten salt batteries produce more energy at higher temps but are prone to overheat. Solid state light sources give more light output at higher voltage. Sounds like the laser rifle. So, laser rifle seems to be a focused at set range solid state laser with a molten salt battery or capacitor for power, based on in game mechanics.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1283	Posted - 2013.04.11 20:13:00 - [30] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: If I can whack my opponent over the head with the butt of my rifle a few times to penetrate their shields and kill them, I could probably also use a modern rifle which doesn't have such hilariously justified drawbacks to kill these futuristic dropsuits. The point is, the lore falls in on itself and it's a stupid mechanic from top to bottom on a gameplay front. No other FPS I'm aware of does this, nor does it try to or want to at any point in the future. That is because it is bad gameplay. You know what we do with bad gameplay? We don't dance around lore to defend it. We get rid of it. Do we get rid of it when it could negatively impact performance? Most of the design decisions these people make are based around stability, even if issues crop up that make that backfire as they have many times throughout this Beta. Suffice to say that the bullets disappearing is a better means of handling weapon falloff for them than trying to simulate ballistics for a large number of players in a global game on a console. If anything, they could maybe have the damage drop to half at double the max range, and 1/4 at triple, and so on.



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