DUST Search - Get rid of weapon levels, make firing weapons use stamina

S Park Finner wrote:

Daedric Lothar wrote:

The idea works better as capacitor. Its not my preference as I feel it slows down the game, but it makes sense now and there may be people that want a slower game, probably EVE players lol.

I will give this a -1 instead of -5000 lol.

I'm glad to see it's coming up in the world! Smile

The game does not have to be slower because of this kind of change. Remember it's all about a different kind of balance. It doesn't have to be this way but here's an example...

Lets say that pressing R3 while turning could give you a boost in turn rate at the price of burning some capacitor. Further, lets say that normal weapon firing doesn't take much capacitor in comparison. That would mean that a heavy, taking fire from the rear, might choose to turn around fast but then would not be able to fire as long a bust if they were low on capacitor to begin with. It might save them, it might get them killed with the next burst. But it would make the action faster.

As for running and gunning a position -- now you are in the same situation with the stamina limitation and having to reload. I believe it would be possible to set normal firing capacitor usage to make an alternative system no worse than what we have now. It might even be better if you could choose a CQC weapon and a medium range weapon on the same fit and use the one appropriate to your situation.

Sniper rifle aiming and precision aiming could be made to use capacitor at rates that kept them from being too powerful under the system.

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S Park Finner BetaMax. CRONOS. 119	Posted - 2013.04.09 16:44:00 - [1] - Quote The whole proposal... Change the Heavy, Light and Sidearm weapon designations to Heavy Stamina Use, Light Stamina Use and Small Stamina Use. Make all weapon slots take all weapon types on all suits so the primary difference is the number of weapons a suit can carry, not what type. Allow any weapon to fit into any slot if the suit can handle the Power Grid, CPU load For each weapon, have stamina use per shot, slightly more stamina use for aim-down-site and add a precision-shot stamina drain per second for high-accuracy stabilized shot. Add skills / modules for general or weapon specific stamina management What we would get from this set-up... Lots more tactical choice. --- You could choose any weapon you wanted on any suit but a big weapon on a light suit might be useless or limited to only firing once and afterword you couldn't run or jump --- You could have new weapon combinations on suits GÇô say Assault Rifle and Shotgun GÇô but the stamina requirements would limit how you used them. --- You could trade accuracy for mobility or variety of weapons. Lots more build / skill strategy choice. --- Could build up stamina skills for generic benefit or weapon stamina reduction to enhance a particular weapons --- Unifies firing and movement enabling a new set of trade-offs in player choices --- Broader range of combinations for particular play styles Expands the sandbox / roll-your-own nature of the game For those who play EVE, this is pretty much a design that replaces Cap Usage with Stamina, recasting the mechanics for DUST 514. There have been a number of similar suggestions in the past but I thought now might be a good time to revisit them wrapped in this new skin.
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 289	Posted - 2013.04.09 16:47:00 - [2] - Quote lol inb4 Dragonfly Miliita forge spam -1 sorry OP
Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc 147	Posted - 2013.04.09 17:09:00 - [3] - Quote Hmm, I keep hitting - but nothing is happening. How do I apply 5000 minuses to this? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 460	Posted - 2013.04.09 17:18:00 - [4] - Quote lolno /thread
Matobar Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 154	Posted - 2013.04.09 17:22:00 - [5] - Quote I would pay $20 just to thumbs down this thread once.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1281	Posted - 2013.04.09 17:35:00 - [6] - Quote I mean, I can see you put some thought into this, and I guess I'll give you props for that, but this is just bad.
Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 461	Posted - 2013.04.09 17:37:00 - [7] - Quote There has never been a time in my life I more wanted to dislike a thread multiple times.
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 481	Posted - 2013.04.09 17:38:00 - [8] - Quote This OP is one of the reasons Devs should rely very little on player feedback. CCP's decision-making process should be 25% from player feedback, 75% from their data logs from all the players playing.
Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc 148	Posted - 2013.04.09 17:43:00 - [9] - Quote mikegunnz wrote: This OP is one of the reasons Devs should rely very little on player feedback. CCP's decision-making process should be 25% from player feedback, 75% from their data logs from all the players playing. Thats still not legit, most of us probably find Ambush boring now that its always the same maps. However their data would show that we still play on those maps so they have got to be good and Ambush has got to be the best mode ever. I prefer Skirmish over Ambush, but I play Ambush for quick cash. Which would mean CCP would show I support Ambush more then Skirmish, but doesn't answer any of the whys. Some ideas are just bad, and considering this thread is all negative, it shows the community can sort itself out for the most part.
S Park Finner BetaMax. CRONOS. 119	Posted - 2013.04.09 17:50:00 - [10] - Quote Thank you. Thank you. I'll be appearing all next week on the war barge in the annex !

limit rush L.O.T.I.S. 2	Posted - 2013.04.09 17:52:00 - [11] - Quote Lol. Was as bad as I thought it would be.
Vaerana Myshtana Bojo's School of the Trades 667	Posted - 2013.04.09 18:10:00 - [12] - Quote In an attempt to take the proposal seriously, I would have to take a long look at other side effects. For instance, a Swarm Launcher makes me run slower than a SMG. I don't know why, it just does. So, I suppose that if we take the extreme example of a Dragonfly Scout w/ a Forge Gun: Militia Forge Gun takes 60 CPU and 6 PG. A Dragonfly Scout has 115 CPU and 30 PG it also has 195 Stamina. A Militia Heavy has what 206 CPU, 30 PG, and 100 Stamina? (I don't have it in front of me). If we are basing the ability to shoot off of Stamina, that would mean that the Heavy could fire the Forge less often than the Scout. The only way to make this tradeoff even vaguely fair is to have some kind of Mass attribute that causes the Scout to lose like 75% of its Movement Speed and Stamina. However... I could see eliminating the Side/Light/Heavy slot distinction... IF... we radically changed how the CPU/PG requirements were handled. For instance, in EVE, they used to have some modules that had insanely high CPU/PG fitting requirements, but certain ships had major bonuses that reduced those costs. However, for the most part, CCP has moved away from that and just set type restrictions, i.e.- Strip Miners can only be fit on Mining Barge hulls. (Yes, and Exhumers too, but they have Mining Barge hulls!) I'm more comfortable leaving it the way it is.
S Park Finner BetaMax. CRONOS. 119	Posted - 2013.04.09 18:13:00 - [13] - Quote Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote: lol inb4 Dragonfly Miliita forge spam -1 sorry OP OK -- I'm absolutely willing to believe this is a stupid idea. That being said, the only objection to the point so far has been Iskandar's. And if I understand him correctly he's objecting to something that would not happen. Here's why -- the forge could use so much stamina that even if you fit it on a scout suit it would not fire. If you managed to configure the suit with skills and modules so you did get a shot off you wouldn't be able to do anything else until you fully recharged and you'd be helpless. The heavy, designed to use the weapon, would have a stamina reserve that could handle it. To ensure the heavy could not (for example) run forever, running in a heavy could be made more stamina intensive. I know this is a different kind of balance but I'm not smart enough about FPS design to know why that different kind of balance is a bad idea. Help me out! Why is it a bad idea?
Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc 149	Posted - 2013.04.09 18:36:00 - [14] - Quote Why? Mostly because having to use stamina to shoot a gun seems like a fairly horrible idea to me. I go to the firing range every couple of months and pop off with a large assortment of rifles. I don't feel fatigued shooting a gun, I actually feel the opposite I feel a natural high of having so much power in my hands. I stay at the range all day firing off well over a thousand rounds and at the end of the day, I'm not tired. So, shooting guns doesn't wear you out, shooting guns gives you an adrenaline surge that makes you want to shoot more and faster.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation 1943	Posted - 2013.04.09 18:38:00 - [15] - Quote IB4Bacon
S Park Finner BetaMax. CRONOS. 119	Posted - 2013.04.09 18:45:00 - [16] - Quote Daedric Lothar wrote: Why? Mostly because having to use stamina to shoot a gun seems like a fairly horrible idea to me. I go to the firing range every couple of months and pop off with a large assortment of rifles. I don't feel fatigued shooting a gun, I actually feel the opposite I feel a natural high of having so much power in my hands. I stay at the range all day firing off well over a thousand rounds and at the end of the day, I'm not tired. So, shooting guns doesn't wear you out, shooting guns gives you an adrenaline surge that makes you want to shoot more and faster. I'm right there with you. I'm more about getting better groupings but I understand. Still, I don't see the relationship between that and FPS game-play. Let me be my own devil's advocate. It's a bad idea because games are about understandable rules that allow players to work within them to hone a particular set of abilities and strategies. Once you have mix-and-match fits the way you would with the stamina suggestion people could come up with some very unusual combinations. Players would never know what was around the corner. That would not be fun. So even if you could kill the other guy easily if you knew how he was set up you don't. Too much variation doesn't make for a fun game. I don't agree with that. I think more options for players makes for more exciting game play and makes for a game with longer life. But it is a game-play related criticism.
Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc 149	Posted - 2013.04.09 18:54:00 - [17] - Quote S Park Finner wrote: Let me be my own devil's advocate. It's a bad idea because games are about understandable rules that allow players to work within them to hone a particular set of abilities and strategies. Once you have mix-and-match fits the way you would with the stamina suggestion people could come up with some very unusual combinations. Players would never know what was around the corner. That would not be fun. So even if you could kill the other guy easily if you knew how he was set up you don't. Too much variation doesn't make for a fun game. I don't agree with that. I think more options for players makes for more exciting game play and makes for a game with longer life. But it is a game-play related criticism. I mostly shoot to relieve stress more then get good, If I can put 95% of them center mass, I'm happy. The only thing I have found stamina related about weapons is holding heavier weapons, however we have power suits, so that would seem to me to be a void issue. Having more customization is great, but if anything fits anywhere then you are going to get some broke stuff. Like the guy who runs with a Lazer/sniper rifle and 20 Damage Enhancers (If you believe most people that the stuff stacks wrong). and just sits back outside any threat to himself. Or the guy who gets 900 grenades or the guy with the Doesn't use any equipment or grenades and just fits all Shield extenders and Rechargers and laughes off damage as he mows down blueberriers all day.
Severus Smith L.O.T.I.S. 210	Posted - 2013.04.09 18:56:00 - [18] - Quote Replace Stamina with Capacitor and this idea gets more interesting. But keep sidearm, light and heavy weapons. Those divisions are needed.
Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc 149	Posted - 2013.04.09 19:05:00 - [19] - Quote Oh yea, 1 other thing, this is going to slow the game down even more. Having to choose between firing and moving. That is going to make Snipers even more powerful then they already are, and for the most part they don't care about not moving. Thats all I need is to make a running charge at a fixed enemy posistion and fire as I go just to run out of gas in the middle of the field and get my face shot off. I see capacitors in the game, but not for this. Eventually I see them for Stealth Fields, Jump Packs, Invulnerability Fields and AOE shockwave pulses. Really cool module stuff.
S Park Finner BetaMax. CRONOS. 119	Posted - 2013.04.09 19:25:00 - [20] - Quote Speaking to Daedric and the folks that talked about capacitors... Daedric, we could introduce the same mechanism I was talking about by adding a "capacitor" to drop suits. A capacitor would be a store of extra energy that built up over time from the suit's power grid and provided an extra boost to functions over a short period of time. Aiming down the sight might draw a little more power than just shooting. Precision aiming would draw even more. The reason they do would be that those functions require a burst of energy the capacitor supplies. A heavy weapon would draw more power from the power grid, but shooting it would also require a bigger cut of the capacitor. That would mean that suits, like the scout, that had smaller capacitors would be either unable or badly hindered in using heavier weapons. As for choosing between movement and firing, I'd suggest we do that already with the decision, say, to skill out a heavy rather than a scout. This mechanism adds a dynamic component to that. The player can make the decision in the original fit and in the way they choose to play on the battlefield. The reason I did not just introduce the capacitor in the original post is because a functionally similar mechanism, stamina, already exists in the game. By using that, implementation is somewhat eased -- at least from the user interface point of view. While stamina is presented in the current implementation as a characteristic of the clone, not the suit, I believe that distinction is blurred in game play. These are powered suits -- jumping and running should draw on their power reserves but instead they wear down the players stamina. Because of that I didn't think using stamina for other functions was doing too much damage to the fiction. I do agree that capacitors tell a little nicer story but at the price of more development work. If, as has been hinted at for vehicles, they will be in the game anyway, they are a better solution.

Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc 149	Posted - 2013.04.09 19:35:00 - [21] - Quote The idea works better as capacitor. Its not my preference as I feel it slows down the game, but it makes sense now and there may be people that want a slower game, probably EVE players lol. I will give this a -1 instead of -5000 lol.
S Park Finner BetaMax. CRONOS. 119	Posted - 2013.04.09 19:53:00 - [22] - Quote Daedric Lothar wrote: The idea works better as capacitor. Its not my preference as I feel it slows down the game, but it makes sense now and there may be people that want a slower game, probably EVE players lol. I will give this a -1 instead of -5000 lol. I'm glad to see it's coming up in the world! The game does not have to be slower because of this kind of change. Remember it's all about a different kind of balance. It doesn't have to be this way but here's an example... Lets say that pressing R3 while turning could give you a boost in turn rate at the price of burning some capacitor. Further, lets say that normal weapon firing doesn't take much capacitor in comparison. That would mean that a heavy, taking fire from the rear, might choose to turn around fast but then would not be able to fire as long a bust if they were low on capacitor to begin with. It might save them, it might get them killed with the next burst. But it would make the action faster. As for running and gunning a position -- now you are in the same situation with the stamina limitation and having to reload. I believe it would be possible to set normal firing capacitor usage to make an alternative system no worse than what we have now. It might even be better if you could choose a CQC weapon and a medium range weapon on the same fit and use the one appropriate to your situation. Sniper rifle aiming and precision aiming could be made to use capacitor at rates that kept them from being too powerful under the system.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1281	Posted - 2013.04.09 20:02:00 - [23] - Quote S Park Finner wrote: Daedric Lothar wrote: The idea works better as capacitor. Its not my preference as I feel it slows down the game, but it makes sense now and there may be people that want a slower game, probably EVE players lol. I will give this a -1 instead of -5000 lol. I'm glad to see it's coming up in the world! The game does not have to be slower because of this kind of change. Remember it's all about a different kind of balance. It doesn't have to be this way but here's an example... Lets say that pressing R3 while turning could give you a boost in turn rate at the price of burning some capacitor. Further, lets say that normal weapon firing doesn't take much capacitor in comparison. That would mean that a heavy, taking fire from the rear, might choose to turn around fast but then would not be able to fire as long a bust if they were low on capacitor to begin with. It might save them, it might get them killed with the next burst. But it would make the action faster. As for running and gunning a position -- now you are in the same situation with the stamina limitation and having to reload. I believe it would be possible to set normal firing capacitor usage to make an alternative system no worse than what we have now. It might even be better if you could choose a CQC weapon and a medium range weapon on the same fit and use the one appropriate to your situation. Sniper rifle aiming and precision aiming could be made to use capacitor at rates that kept them from being too powerful under the system. Still though, come on. I get that this is in the same universe as EVE, but that doesn't mean that it should be just as nigh-on impossible to get into. And having to balance capacitor output while running around and firing a gun would pretty much take all the fun out of the game. As some people have said before, Arma is a great game, but not everyone wants to play a really heavy simulator.


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