DUST Search - Viziam With x4 DMG Mods

DUST Fiend wrote:

Beren Hurin wrote:

I want you to reword this idea/notion that you are 'rewarded for missing' because it isn't working for me. The single way you may be a little correct in that is that you are 'rewarded' by not alerting the player to your damage you are about to do to them until it is too late. Otherwise it is not 'rewarding' the laser user if they aren't hitting their target. If the laser user were to hit the target that he isn't currently, he WOULD kill them faster. That is simply not a reward. The damage DOES NOT GO UP just because you are NOT hitting them. It scales regardless.

Once again, breaking this down. There are discrete issues here. We have the 'sweeping' and the 'damage scaling'.

With damage scaling-

The laser rifle is NOT UNLIKE many other weapons in that it is not optimally effective the 'instant' you place the reticle over the target and fire. The time between 'press fire' and 'apply damage' is delayed. The management of that delay is where skill comes in. With AR fire. There is no delay. YOUR skill comes in response to the player's RESPONSE to your fire.

With 'sweeping'-

The sweeping technique is a function of the management of that forementioned 'delay'. That beam hitting the ground is wasted ammo. It is a step toward a 5 second burnout and additional reload time. It is time that you are advertising your location and the fact that you are pointed in a specific direction. The LR skill comes in forgiving a little bit of the difficulty in mitigating the target's response and trading it for mitigating a few more difficulties that the weapon mechanics themselves pose.

You're rewarded because regardless of if you're hitting your opponent or not, you're always moving up to your maximum damage, which is incredibly high (the Viziam receives something like a 25% boost in DPs over its L3 version, unlike basically every other weapon in the game, though this applies to all versions of the LR)

Wasting ammo is a moot point because Nanohives, of which all but heavies can carry, and again, squad support (that shouldn't be considered in balance, since everyone can benefit from nanohives)

If someone shoots an Assault Rifle, I know where they're shooting me from. If someone shoots a sniper rifle, I have a descent idea of where they're shooting from (usually). If someone shoots a shotgun, I can hear where they're shooting from. If someone shoots a SMG, I can hear and see where it's coming from. If someone shoots a forge gun, swarm launcher, HMG, blaster installation, tank turret, etc etc, I know where it's coming from. Just because the laser is a little brighter and clearer doesn't suddenly mean it's the only weapon to suffer from this effect.

Lasers should build up damage on target, with the damage slowly lowering when off target. Basically, if you're on target all the time, you build up to max damage, and own. If your aim is meh, but you focus on one target, you'll keep fairly even DPS, slowly going up. If you hop from target to target, you will deal base damage, instead of dealing maximum damage across the board because you skilled up in lowering your overheat.


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gbghg L.O.T.I.S. 1080	Posted - 2013.04.08 18:38:00 - [1] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: lowratehitman wrote: You would understand if you was actually skilled in it,it is trash up close. I know it's trash up close, but when you camp at range with it, with squad support, you eliminate its only weakness and greatly amplify its extreme strength (damage build up off target) I don't need to eat hagus to know that it looks and sounds fugly so by your logic, an LR user who knows his weakness and by having his squad support him covers up that weakness, that's a bad thing? that's like saying having a tank get supported by infantry is a bad thing, and thats a ******** viewpoint. In both cases we see people working together as a team to support each other and make the team more effective, nothing wrong there
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. 1080	Posted - 2013.04.08 18:51:00 - [2] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: lowratehitman wrote: Than I was not the only one misreading your "squad support" statement. You trolled yourself. You are yet again misreading...holy crap, why am I still feeding you. I said WITH SQUAD SUPPORT. You said that I said the LR IS SQUAD SUPPORT. gbghg is responding to what I ACTUALLY SAID, where as you are still responding to what you THINK I SAID.... thb you can use the LR as a support weapon, get a good overwatch position as your squad moves about it and you can remove/weaken threats before your squad runs into them. you can also make it much more difficult for them to respond to your squads movements as well. But personally i like the current buildup mechanics, if it was build up on target the thing would be almost worthless accept to k/bm players, right now its a fact that you're going to lose contact everynow and then with a moving target as you build up the damage, besides the amount of times where an AR can put you down in less than 2 seconds is ridiculous, the only times i've beaten them in the dps race is when i've preheated the beam before stepping out of cover.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. 1080	Posted - 2013.04.08 19:11:00 - [3] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: I want you to reword this idea/notion that you are 'rewarded for missing' because it isn't working for me. The single way you may be a little correct in that is that you are 'rewarded' by not alerting the player to your damage you are about to do to them until it is too late. Otherwise it is not 'rewarding' the laser user if they aren't hitting their target. If the laser user were to hit the target that he isn't currently, he WOULD kill them faster. That is simply not a reward. The damage DOES NOT GO UP just because you are NOT hitting them. It scales regardless. Once again, breaking this down. There are discrete issues here. We have the 'sweeping' and the 'damage scaling'. With damage scaling- The laser rifle is NOT UNLIKE many other weapons in that it is not optimally effective the 'instant' you place the reticle over the target and fire. The time between 'press fire' and 'apply damage' is delayed. The management of that delay is where skill comes in. With AR fire. There is no delay. YOUR skill comes in response to the player's RESPONSE to your fire. With 'sweeping'- The sweeping technique is a function of the management of that forementioned 'delay'. That beam hitting the ground is wasted ammo. It is a step toward a 5 second burnout and additional reload time. It is time that you are advertising your location and the fact that you are pointed in a specific direction. The LR skill comes in forgiving a little bit of the difficulty in mitigating the target's response and trading it for mitigating a few more difficulties that the weapon mechanics themselves pose. You're rewarded because regardless of if you're hitting your opponent or not, you're always moving up to your maximum damage, which is incredibly high (the Viziam receives something like a 25% boost in DPs over its L3 version, unlike basically every other weapon in the game, though this applies to all versions of the LR) Wasting ammo is a moot point because Nanohives, of which all but heavies can carry, and again, squad support (that shouldn't be considered in balance, since everyone can benefit from nanohives) If someone shoots an Assault Rifle, I know where they're shooting me from. If someone shoots a sniper rifle, I have a descent idea of where they're shooting from (usually). If someone shoots a shotgun, I can hear where they're shooting from. If someone shoots a SMG, I can hear and see where it's coming from. If someone shoots a forge gun, swarm launcher, HMG, blaster installation, tank turret, etc etc, I know where it's coming from. Just because the laser is a little brighter and clearer doesn't suddenly mean it's the only weapon to suffer from this effect. Lasers should build up damage on target, with the damage slowly lowering when off target. Basically, if you're on target all the time, you build up to max damage, and own. If your aim is meh, but you focus on one target, you'll keep fairly even DPS, slowly going up. If you hop from target to target, you will deal base damage, instead of dealing maximum damage across the board because you skilled up in lowering your overheat. It's been stated by CCP wolfman over irc that the viziam's damage is too high and will be lowered in the next build and like i said in my earlier post "besides the amount of times where an AR can put you down in less than 2 seconds is ridiculous, the only times i've beaten them in the dps race is when i've preheated the beam before stepping out of cover." We need the current mechanics so we can compete with the high dps of weapons like the AR or sniper rifle, it's all very well saying that you should only build up damage when on target, but the problem is that staying on target will mean we'll have to stand in the open being the easiest possible target on the map for between 5-10 seconds to take down a higher tier suit, it would make lasers an almost useless weapon because you would be giving off a low DPS when you started firing, but you would instantly expose yourself to a high incoming DPS. the mechanics you're suggesting would make LR's incredibly difficult to use effectively.