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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3342
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Posted - 2013.04.07 04:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
With the recent polling about corp taxes to fund planetary conquest, I realized corps are more like states than actual corporations; you don't get a paycheck from them, but instead they will tax you to fund their activities. Even with states you get a variety of social services in exchange for your taxes and other contributions, but members of a corp get nothing. As great as planetary conquest sounds, the corporation (and those with access to the corp wallet) are the only ones who will really gain ISK from the conquered district's clone productions. What is there for the individual to gain?
I understand that a CEO and directors can just provide ISK to members, but they don't really have to at all; its not much of a reward if the whims of your CEO decides whether you get it or not. The lack of pay, and now the incoming corp tax makes corporation's relationship with its members essentially parasitic instead of mutualistic.
If we are to have obligations to our corps, be it through taxes or through PC battles, the corp needs to have an obligation to its members to even the scales. This would not only be good for the regular corp members, but it i also good for the corps because it would also incentivise players to join player-created corps (and fund the corp's conquest through taxes).
Solutions Have a tax system, but have other systems available where players can voluntarily donate ISK to the corp with expected benefits in the future.
Allow players to purchase shares of their corporation's districts, and owning a portion of the district entitles that player to a percentage of the automatic clone sales (when the clones produce exceed district's storage capacity and are sold). This would last for as long as that corporation controls that district. The money from the sales would help fund the corporation, but also make regular corp members truly care whether or not their corporation maintains control if a district since they will have a stake in it.
Another idea would be for corporation donations to yield returns like investment. Every corp member who donated to the corp should get 150% of their original donations returned after a month. A starter pack of clones cost 80 million ISK, but a district conquered with those clones yield 80 clones per day by default which is worth 8 million ISK, but in less than 2 weeks the district becomes profitable (112 million ISK value of clones in 2 weeks). |
slypie11
Planetary Response Organisation
118
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Posted - 2013.04.07 04:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
Good ideas |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3343
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Posted - 2013.04.07 07:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Anyone else have any thoughts on this? |
Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
462
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Posted - 2013.04.07 07:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Well the individual merc gets paid with battles in PC.
If you lose, each player gets loot which might not cover what he lost in fittings.
If you win, you're guaranteed 12 million ISK to your team if you lose no clones yourself. That's 750k ISK + loot each player will get.
If you win, but lose 100 clones yourself you'll get 20 million ISK to your team. That's 1,25 million ISK + loot to each player. With 100 deaths it would be 6 deaths each on average, so it should cover each player's loss.
All of this require trading or corp hangars of course, since the loot you get will probably be useless for you (getting HMGs when you're a sniper etc). |
slypie11
Planetary Response Organisation
120
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Posted - 2013.04.07 11:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:Well the individual merc gets paid with battles in PC.
If you lose, each player gets loot which might not cover what he lost in fittings.
If you win, you're guaranteed 12 million ISK to your team if you lose no clones yourself. That's 750k ISK + loot each player will get.
If you win, but lose 100 clones yourself you'll get 20 million ISK to your team. That's 1,25 million ISK + loot to each player. With 100 deaths it would be 6 deaths each on average, so it should cover each player's loss.
All of this require trading or corp hangars of course, since the loot you get will probably be useless for you (getting HMGs when you're a sniper etc). Not everyone will be playing PC |
KalOfTheRathi
Talon Strike Force LTD
325
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Posted - 2013.04.07 12:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Know your Corp, its Directors, their goals and trust them to meet them in fair and consistent manner.
If you want a Feel Good Happy Corp then start one.
Establish your own rules of conduct, follow them, build a massive war chest from the receipts and rewards from your members.
Then Steal It All.
That is the EVE way. |
A'Real Fury
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
33
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Posted - 2013.04.07 13:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
If most of your income is derived from your direct involvement in PC battles then what happens to all those players who are not good enough to be on the primary 16 person team but is still required to contribute via corp taxes.
For example you have a corp of 50, 100, 200 + members then you will work out who are the best 20 or 30 players etc and only use them for PC battles leaving the remaining 20 to 170 players with nothing but a continuous drain on their wallets while those 20 to 30 players live it up in the protos you paid for and still make a profit on each of the battles they are involved in.
The idea floated that anybody who contributes Isk regardless of whether they are involved in the actual battle is a good one. Profits from a district should be solely based on the Isk invested by that member. For those that actually fight in PC their bonus income will come from the salvage, or a percentage of it, that they receive from a successful attack or defence of a territory since all the equipment used will come out of the corps coffers.
For those corps, which are not made up of good friends and families, who do not make a profit or at least offer something else desirable like training will find that they will loose their lower ranked members fast.
I would hate to see a situation where the majority of the lower ranked, non elite players, end up creating mini corps on their alt toons because they get nothing out of larger corps.
It doesn't have to be about Isk but corps must foster strong and happy relationships with all of their members or risk loosing them and their Isk. |
Piercing Serenity
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
216
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Posted - 2013.04.07 14:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
I think you're pushing the idea of balance and equity a big too far. We aren't workers. No one owes us anything. We aren't indentured servants. We owe corporations nothing. If you want to have individual wealth, I say fight in public matches or do some PvE. If you want fame, infamy, and to be part of something bigger than yourself, you should join a corp looking to enter PC. |
Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
462
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Posted - 2013.04.07 14:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
A'Real Fury wrote:If most of your income is derived from your direct involvement in PC battles then what happens to all those players who are not good enough to be on the primary 16 person team but is still required to contribute via corp taxes.
For example you have a corp of 50, 100, 200 + members then you will work out who are the best 20 or 30 players etc and only use them for PC battles leaving the remaining 20 to 170 players with nothing but a continuous drain on their wallets while those 20 to 30 players live it up in the protos you paid for and still make a profit on each of the battles they are involved in.
The idea floated that anybody who contributes Isk regardless of whether they are involved in the actual battle is a good one. Profits from a district should be solely based on the Isk invested by that member. For those that actually fight in PC their bonus income will come from the salvage, or a percentage of it, that they receive from a successful attack or defence of a territory since all the equipment used will come out of the corps coffers.
For those corps, which are not made up of good friends and families, who do not make a profit or at least offer something else desirable like training will find that they will loose their lower ranked members fast.
I would hate to see a situation where the majority of the lower ranked, non elite players, end up creating mini corps on their alt toons because they get nothing out of larger corps.
It doesn't have to be about Isk but corps must foster strong and happy relationships with all of their members or risk loosing them and their Isk. See Piercing Serenity's post above mine.
Also only the best 20-30 players get to play in PC? That's only depending on how many districts you own. If you only hold 1 or 2 then yes, only the best 20-30 will play. What if you hold 10 districts? That's 10 hours those 20-30 players have to be on every single day if you have different timers on each district. If you have the timers over less hours you will need more than 20-30 to defend them all.
Honestly I don't see why each individual merc need to get ISK directly from the district(s) the corporation owns. If the corporation decides to give out the ISK made from districts that's fine, but the profit for the individual mercs should come from the battles.
I see the tax as something you pay for being in the corp, not as something to pay for PC. If the tax is too high for you, then you can always find another corp. As a member of a corp you can also play FW battles, so it's not just PC battles you can participate in.
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Absolute Idiom II
BetaMax. CRONOS.
97
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Posted - 2013.04.07 23:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mercs get paid for doing the PC fights themselves. The winning team gets 80k per clone that died that match - even the ones that your own corp brought to the battles. Yes, ironically you will get a larger paycheck at the end of the match if you have a narrow victory than complete steamrolling the opposition. (though obviously this will be at the expense of your corp). |
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
881
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Posted - 2013.04.08 06:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
I think most of those ideas, while good, should stay within the realm of player interaction rather than be hard coded mechanically. The exception is the idea of shares, it does seem to me that the ability to invest in a specific area and have that tangible location also provide a tangible and direct payoff would enhance immersion and corporate cohesion.
Just to reiterate, I think a good corp should be providing a symbiotic dynamic with it's membership but very much believe that should be in the hands of players rather than hard coded into the UI. Providing tools which players can corps can opt into/out of on the other hand is purely a step forward and I support that concept fully (the suggestion of shares works well as a possible example).
0.02 ISK Cross |
Daedric Lothar
Onslaught Inc
123
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Posted - 2013.04.08 11:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
I posted this in the FoxFour tax thread, but I guess that was just a poll on taxes.
I would like to see a balancing feature in addition to taxes. I'd like to see options for suit/weapon replacement put in where a corp can easily issue gear when mercs lose them (Basically the merc can hit a button to request a corp to pay the restock fee for a fit or # of fits, ISK only).
OR
during a corp event the corp can place fittings that a merc can choose and use corp gear rather then personal gear.
The taxes would be from player to corp, but I feel it needs the above to complete the circuit and allow corps and players to interact better.
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Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
652
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Posted - 2013.04.08 13:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
It would be really nice if shares in EVE/Dust were actually traded on a stock exchange. The current mechanic stinks, but it does have the ability to pay dividends for instance.
If shares were actually tradeable (and classifiable - Voting/Non-Voting/Preferred), then people could make money several ways- paychecks, dividends, daytrading, and long-term investing. |
Agent Overkill
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
5
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Posted - 2013.04.08 22:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:I think you're pushing the idea of balance and equity a big too far. We aren't workers. No one owes us anything. We aren't indentured servants. We owe corporations nothing. If you want to have individual wealth, I say fight in public matches or do some PvE. If you want fame, infamy, and to be part of something bigger than yourself, you should join a corp looking to enter PC. We will have income tax from our cop, but no benefits besides a chance enter PC. If we owe our corps nothing then why will be taxed from them? |
Agent Overkill
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
5
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Posted - 2013.04.08 23:02:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vaerana Myshtana wrote:It would be really nice if shares in EVE/Dust were actually traded on a stock exchange. The current mechanic stinks, but it does have the ability to pay dividends for instance.
If shares were actually tradeable (and classifiable - Voting/Non-Voting/Preferred), then people could make money several ways- paychecks, dividends, daytrading, and long-term investing. This would be very nice. It would expand what is possible the EVE/Dust economy and make it more worthwhile be in a corporation. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3373
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Posted - 2013.04.09 12:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:I think most of those ideas, while good, should stay within the realm of player interaction rather than be hard coded mechanically. The exception is the idea of shares, it does seem to me that the ability to invest in a specific area and have that tangible location also provide a tangible and direct payoff would enhance immersion and corporate cohesion.
Just to reiterate, I think a good corp should be providing a symbiotic dynamic with it's membership but very much believe that should be in the hands of players rather than hard coded into the UI. Providing tools which players can corps can opt into/out of on the other hand is purely a step forward and I support that concept fully (the suggestion of shares works well as a possible example).
0.02 ISK Cross
I respect your opinions, they are consistently reasonable, but I disagree about these things not being hard coded. Seems odd to me that mechanics for corps to automatically take money from members should be hard coded in the game, while systems of reciprocity should not. I don't see why one is ok while the other is not. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2415
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Posted - 2013.04.09 13:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
I suggested an option in the "main" tax thread for a Corp to have a fixed-value tax where every day, week, fortnight, month, whatever, the Corp takes a fixed amount of ISK out of your personal savings and into the Corp wallet.
This could be reversed as a "retainer" for members you want to encourage to stick around.
You could also set a negative percentage-based tax, allowing the corp to pay out additional ISK to players based on their profits. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1285
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Posted - 2013.04.09 13:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
I always like what you suggest dude. But this i think is totally inherent to the metagame and the CEO and director role just like Cross ATU said alreadY
You tax and your corp makes money. You'll need to worry about giving back to the people unless you want to have a riot inside your corporation. No mecanics should come and help CEOs dealing with that. Or then, it must be mecanics that they have to use themselves.
Tax is one. Being able to do "No tax" period. Or if possible, to lower the tax of a very invested group of players. Or a stock system, or medals that ceo could give out with a juicy pile of ISK once in a while.
We need tools to manage our corps. Not systems that can do it for us. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1285
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Posted - 2013.04.09 13:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cross Atu wrote:I think most of those ideas, while good, should stay within the realm of player interaction rather than be hard coded mechanically. The exception is the idea of shares, it does seem to me that the ability to invest in a specific area and have that tangible location also provide a tangible and direct payoff would enhance immersion and corporate cohesion.
Just to reiterate, I think a good corp should be providing a symbiotic dynamic with it's membership but very much believe that should be in the hands of players rather than hard coded into the UI. Providing tools which players can corps can opt into/out of on the other hand is purely a step forward and I support that concept fully (the suggestion of shares works well as a possible example).
0.02 ISK Cross I respect your opinions, they are consistently reasonable, but I disagree about these things not being hard coded. Seems odd to me that mechanics for corps to automatically take money from members should be hard coded in the game, while systems of reciprocity should not. I don't see why one is ok while the other is not. Corps could negotiate and collect money from members without it being hard coded in the UI (though I am in favor of an automatic tax system if systems of reciprocity are given the same treatment).
Damn, should have started with this... Stupid me.
Anyway : Using a hard coded way to take money from members makes sense as otherwise it's an absolute pain in the ass to set into motion. Also, it's available in EVE. So me wants.
An hard coded way of paying back members could make sense but doesnt exist in EVE. Mainly because as a member of a successfull corp, you have inherent profit just being in it : Numbers (providing security and thus less ISK lost), Playing more interesting fights ISK wise, reputations. And in EVE : using corp structures and asset.
Dust is supposed to evolve toward EVE's model. And it suits me perfectly if it does. When player exchange will become available, even without any market. Being in a corp will be a huge advantage as you'll have a pool of player with which you'll be able to trade without having to search by yourself.
There's money, and there's services. Like you said in your original post. And believe me, i agree with your background view on this. It's just the hardcoded part i dont like. For example, WTF has started creating new roles for members that arent director : those will go with a monthly fee and no tax to pay. Metagame. not that tough to manage without any hard coded elements. |
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