DUST Search - Why nerfing the Flux Grenade is wrong

Cat Merc wrote:

semperfi1999 wrote:

Cat Merc wrote:

semperfi1999 wrote:

Wow you shouldnt go quoting a post in the feedback section and put it in the general section. Obviously noone went to the original post and read it.

FLux is unquestionably OP. If you dont think so then you most likely use it as a crutch. The Flux was designed to work against vehicles and does dmg to shields for such high values because of that. However it is also effective against all infantry because there is no infantry that could get more than 1200 shields (the lowest flux nade dmg) that means you never had to lvl up and day 1 noobs can completely destroy proto a proto suit with a single flux nade. That is a pretty big issue.

The suggested fix was for flux dmg to be related to the signature profile of that suit. IE shields suits have larger sig profiles than armor suits and thus would take more dmg (up to a max amount). However the sig profile of infantry suits are alot smaller than HAVs. HAVs should be the standard that takes the full dmg from a flux nade. IE HAV take 1200 dmg from a flux nade but if the HAV has a signature profile of 150 and the infantry suit has a sig profile of 50 then that means the infantry suit would take 1/3rd of the damage that the HAV would take. That is the idea and though it can be tweaked it was a thought on how to balance out the flux nade....instead of it being an insta pwn weapon that can be used against infantry.

Just imagine if I could throw a single grenade that did 80% dmg to a proto heavy if the heavy was anywhere in the blast radius....would that be considered "balanced"? No it wouldnt and this is exactly what you are arguing for and if you cant see that logic then there is no point in discussing it further because you are blinded by your own desire to continue to use this weapon.

The Flux nade does what it does.
Destroy shields.
Its called the Metagame, get used to it, EVE has lots of it and so will Dust.
As it is right now, shields are the way to go.
They recharge faster and don't slow you down like plates do.
That's why the Flux is fine, it counters a more effective shielding system.
And about locus nades, unlike Flux nades, they damage both shields and armor.
So I'm giving up the ability to take down someones armor in exchange for a more effective anti shield grenade.

Then they need a nade that when thrown does 1200 dmg to armor only that i can use against heavies. Hey its meta game man.

I love your argument. Literally its so illogical you can use it to defend anything and just call it metagame. I think ccp should give ppl the ability to call in a gundam to completely whipe the map of all enemies.....its not OP its called meta game you noob.

Why dont you come back with well reasoned arguments on why a weapon should exist that can completely kill 80% of a players HP if they are even slightly in the AOE when there is no corresponding nade that is as effective against the other hp option.

1200 to Armor will insta kill a player, considering that there is no third layer to the suit :)
Which is another reason why shield is better, you get a buffer to run into cover.

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Monty Mole Clone Shiv M 24	Posted - 2013.04.05 21:49:00 - [31] - Quote the flux should stay as it is imho, its non lethal (bug withstanding) not like those ebil locus nades that show no mercy and can kill whole groups of players wether they are shield or armour tanked
Protoman Is God Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 19	Posted - 2013.04.05 21:50:00 - [32] - Quote Goon ReGnUM wrote: Cat Merc wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?find=unread&g=posts&t=66318 The Flux nade is designed to strip a person of their shields. As long as it doesn't do any damage to armor, it should stay as is. There is something called the metagame, and here is a simple explanation on how it works. Person A uses a powerful defense that beats any other defense in the game. Person B uses a weapon that is otherwise useless but its the only counter to that defense. Person C sees person B use it and decides to use it too. Person D, E, F, G, etc' also do the same as C. Person A sees that everyone is powerful against his defense, so he has to switch up. Seeing that persons A-G switch to another weapon to counter the defense. Rinse and repeat. If you are being beaten up because you got hit by a Flux nade, then switch to Armor, Flux nades are useless against it. Also, the argument that the Standard version gives you no reason to upgrade also doesn't hold weight, considering Militia Locus nades (And there are no Militia flux nades) are capable of killing a person with one nade. And the blast radius goes up with the levels. And if you HAVE to use shields, get a damn shield regulator or two, might finally see people buy those things from once in a while. Fuse time need a fix . Prototype flux grenades should completely strip shields away, but the lesser tiered ones shouldn't have anywhere remotely near the power that they currently have.
Marston VC SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 139	Posted - 2013.04.05 22:01:00 - [33] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: only noobs who need an advantage use flux grenades. Lol, or people who are smart. Why, if im in my standard suit, would I want to take on a person using a proto suit 'fairly'?? that just sounds stupid doesn't it? no.... id rather hit them with a flux and kill them using my much cheaper suit, then just get destroyed because Im trying to 1v1 them with half as much hp. People think proto suits are all great but in reality all it takes to kill them is one well placed flux grenade!
SoTa PoP Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1960	Posted - 2013.04.05 22:25:00 - [34] - Quote spamming fluxes to get kills shouldn't be possible, they shouldn't explode a second after touching the ground, and their radius is ridiculous. I also want to know the point of any fluxes past the first one besides AV if the highest shield is 600. They're not deadly weapons so no one much complains, but they're bugged in two ways currently and are very over powered for that radius explosion, making it's higher tiered variants just AV. just my thoughts.
Johnny Guilt Algintal Core Gallente Federation 63	Posted - 2013.04.05 22:32:00 - [35] - Quote Jesus,i cant spec into anything worth a damn without it getting nerfed. flux is a supportive grenade to me,why are people bitching about a greande that doesnt insta kill?
ugg reset ZionTCD Legacy Rising 247	Posted - 2013.04.05 22:54:00 - [36] - Quote Sev Alcatraz wrote: I want a thermite grenade that will bring down an opponents armour then ever hear of locus grenades?
WE LOVE ReGnUM Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 27	Posted - 2013.04.05 23:26:00 - [37] - Quote Flux nade bug ^ This is just one of many reason why this nade type is so broken Do not even get me started on fuse time.
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 475	Posted - 2013.04.05 23:40:00 - [38] - Quote Flux bug where it kills people needs to be addressed. Other than that, its fine. Flux nades cannot kill people. Regular nades can. There would be no point to carrying flux nades if they did less damage. Right now the whole point is to give you a nade option that can severly cripple an infantry opponent, but not kill AND also act as a (weak) AV weapon. Lowering shield damage would ruin it. Right now its working as intended. The problem isn't the flux nade, it's the fact that we don't have the full variety of suit variants. Once you factor in more types of racial suits etc, (ie: suits that aren't as shield tanked, but still offer better stats than a type1) this will give people options. The problem when you boil it down, is the same one that existed 6mo and a year ago....there is very little reason to armor tank your suit.
Thor McStrut Terminal Pharmaceuticals Inc. 1	Posted - 2013.04.05 23:55:00 - [39] - Quote Because of this thread, I fit some flux nades today. I have to admit, only having to chew through an opponents armor is much nicer. Was it an OP day? I don't think so, but I was able to kill a few more peeps than I normally do. I do think the blast radius was a tad oversized, but I don't know if that was just visually or actual. I like the ideas about sig radius affecting damage.
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 441	Posted - 2013.04.06 00:01:00 - [40] - Quote mikegunnz wrote: Flux bug where it kills people needs to be addressed. Other than that, its fine. Flux nades cannot kill people. Regular nades can. There would be no point to carrying flux nades if they did less damage. Right now the whole point is to give you a nade option that can severly cripple an infantry opponent, but not kill AND also act as a (weak) AV weapon. Lowering shield damage would ruin it. Right now its working as intended. The problem isn't the flux nade, it's the fact that we don't have the full variety of suit variants. Once you factor in more types of racial suits etc, (ie: suits that aren't as shield tanked, but still offer better stats than a type1) this will give people options. The problem when you boil it down, is the same one that existed 6mo and a year ago....there is very little reason to armor tank your suit. Even then one of the issue with flux nades is the they dont do a proportional damage if any piece of the field catches you its a full reduction on shield. Add to this it still maintains the 2s contact timer allowing for easy spam and an ability to do damage even if its limited to shields through solid objects and in 3dimension far more effectively than a locus nade so i think it has quite a bit of attributes that make it more than fair compared to locus nade that it not doing a full shield strip on a stacked infantry isnt going to break it. I would be willing however to see a balancing around its reduced effectiveness when the field has to penetrate an object for the field to touch the the target kinda of like an absorption effect of the em field. Combined with the flux kill bug and a 5s contact timer while still maintaining its current damage levels to infantry. Before someone comes and say it doesnt work through walls ive used flux long enough to tell you it definitely does. Has it been sporadic at time yes but thats often in the vertical plane like all explosives despite its obvious bubble blast when thrown straight in the air. But back on point. To me stripping the shields off the suit isn't as big the issue for me as it is the fact it works through walls, there is no proportional damage based on distance to center of radius like there is with locus nades, and that there is a 2s contact fuse is what allows for a constant and never ending field of flux nades that require little to no effort to achieve effect. ( i use them enough to know) That said though it may become more prevalent in pubs in time as the playerbase catches up, it may serve as a double edged sword in FF enabled matches. Regardless fix contact timer and kill bug at a minimum and consider proportional damage based on distance from epicenter for infantry. (for vehicles leave it any piece of the field as i feel thats a little better than having homing feature added to compensate for requiring such a precise throw on a fast moving object).

DeadlyAztec11 One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas 15	Posted - 2013.04.06 00:04:00 - [41] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: Kalante Schiffer wrote: only noobs who need an advantage use flux grenades. Ain't that right? Real men only use melee. Let the scrubs use weapons. Melee? That's a noob move... I beat them with intelligent reasoning, where we can both sit down and come to a common understanding... If that fails. A strongly worded letter shall convince them, without fail. lol
Shadow Archeus Wraith Shadow Guards 62	Posted - 2013.04.06 00:26:00 - [42] - Quote OK possible comprise Lower the radius and damage but have it deal damage for as long as the explosion animation continues I've seen people run right through the blast....its not an explosion its an energy field it should hit if you run through it Also increase the time it takes for grenades to regent from nanos.....I've seen a lot of made spamming
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 441	Posted - 2013.04.06 02:27:00 - [43] - Quote Shadow Archeus wrote: OK possible comprise Lower the radius and damage but have it deal damage for as long as the explosion animation continues I've seen people run right through the blast....its not an explosion its an energy field it should hit if you run through it And add a skill that increases the length of the animation..but not by much maybe for 5 seconds max...then it becomes an area denial weapon albeit for a short duration Also increase the time it takes for grenades to regent from nanos.....I've seen a lot of made spamming I just cant stress this enough. Now i make room that the stats listed are not what the actual nades function as but for clarification Blast radius is in fact blast diameter std 6.0m adv 6.6m pro 7.2m This is identical for av, locus, and flux nade. It seems bigger because the area of the flux nade is represented by a sphere that extend the entire diameter where as the shrpanel effect of grenades are not animated and all you see is the center portion of the blast. The only true test is to take 2 enemies and suicide cook a locus nade and see if damage is done to 2 individual standing exactly 3m from the person in the center. (We know this is the case for flux nades) This is important for a few reason 6m diameter is a huge step down from a 6m radius. Att the end of the day what makes the flux a problem and one that was ignored for quite some time, despite regular flux users citing this as a potential abused option for players given its overwhelming effect without need for any sort of precision. It can be quicktossed in rapid succssion with only 2s contact time and unlike locus nades which could be avoided by seeking cover that option does not exist with flux nades as they work through objects (which should allow it to work at a drastically reduced efficiency imo) and because of the 2s timer which allows for easy and continous spam. As i said nade spam may end up self correcting in PC with FF on but who knows. Oh and to the individuals that talk about how locus nades can kill and thats what make the trade off fair, locus nade need to be cooke otherwise only dumb ppl die to them because they dont bother to retreat. Moreover death generally doesnt occur unless near the dead center. The further you are from that it has a reduced damage effect until you are outside of the blast radius. Meaning a more precise throw in order for death. Flux nade as long as any part of the field touches you exerts full effect and there is no time to react with a 2s timer(something the community and CCP agreed on when they changed the timers on the locus nades back a few mos ago). This allows for imprecise and spammed haptic nade toss as opposed to precision thrown, cooked or any other consideration.
ugg reset ZionTCD Legacy Rising 247	Posted - 2013.04.06 03:32:00 - [44] - Quote No joke no troll this is how you nerf the flux: turn on FF
Cat Merc OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 403	Posted - 2013.04.06 06:54:00 - [45] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Cat Merc wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: Wow you shouldnt go quoting a post in the feedback section and put it in the general section. Obviously noone went to the original post and read it. FLux is unquestionably OP. If you dont think so then you most likely use it as a crutch. The Flux was designed to work against vehicles and does dmg to shields for such high values because of that. However it is also effective against all infantry because there is no infantry that could get more than 1200 shields (the lowest flux nade dmg) that means you never had to lvl up and day 1 noobs can completely destroy proto a proto suit with a single flux nade. That is a pretty big issue. The suggested fix was for flux dmg to be related to the signature profile of that suit. IE shields suits have larger sig profiles than armor suits and thus would take more dmg (up to a max amount). However the sig profile of infantry suits are alot smaller than HAVs. HAVs should be the standard that takes the full dmg from a flux nade. IE HAV take 1200 dmg from a flux nade but if the HAV has a signature profile of 150 and the infantry suit has a sig profile of 50 then that means the infantry suit would take 1/3rd of the damage that the HAV would take. That is the idea and though it can be tweaked it was a thought on how to balance out the flux nade....instead of it being an insta pwn weapon that can be used against infantry. Just imagine if I could throw a single grenade that did 80% dmg to a proto heavy if the heavy was anywhere in the blast radius....would that be considered "balanced"? No it wouldnt and this is exactly what you are arguing for and if you cant see that logic then there is no point in discussing it further because you are blinded by your own desire to continue to use this weapon. The Flux nade does what it does. Destroy shields. Its called the Metagame, get used to it, EVE has lots of it and so will Dust. As it is right now, shields are the way to go. They recharge faster and don't slow you down like plates do. That's why the Flux is fine, it counters a more effective shielding system. And about locus nades, unlike Flux nades, they damage both shields and armor. So I'm giving up the ability to take down someones armor in exchange for a more effective anti shield grenade. Then they need a nade that when thrown does 1200 dmg to armor only that i can use against heavies. Hey its meta game man. I love your argument. Literally its so illogical you can use it to defend anything and just call it metagame. I think ccp should give ppl the ability to call in a gundam to completely whipe the map of all enemies.....its not OP its called meta game you noob. Why dont you come back with well reasoned arguments on why a weapon should exist that can completely kill 80% of a players HP if they are even slightly in the AOE when there is no corresponding nade that is as effective against the other hp option. 1200 to Armor will insta kill a player, considering that there is no third layer to the suit :) Which is another reason why shield is better, you get a buffer to run into cover.
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 401	Posted - 2013.04.06 16:30:00 - [46] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: Cat Merc wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: Wow you shouldnt go quoting a post in the feedback section and put it in the general section. Obviously noone went to the original post and read it. FLux is unquestionably OP. If you dont think so then you most likely use it as a crutch. The Flux was designed to work against vehicles and does dmg to shields for such high values because of that. However it is also effective against all infantry because there is no infantry that could get more than 1200 shields (the lowest flux nade dmg) that means you never had to lvl up and day 1 noobs can completely destroy proto a proto suit with a single flux nade. That is a pretty big issue. The suggested fix was for flux dmg to be related to the signature profile of that suit. IE shields suits have larger sig profiles than armor suits and thus would take more dmg (up to a max amount). However the sig profile of infantry suits are alot smaller than HAVs. HAVs should be the standard that takes the full dmg from a flux nade. IE HAV take 1200 dmg from a flux nade but if the HAV has a signature profile of 150 and the infantry suit has a sig profile of 50 then that means the infantry suit would take 1/3rd of the damage that the HAV would take. That is the idea and though it can be tweaked it was a thought on how to balance out the flux nade....instead of it being an insta pwn weapon that can be used against infantry. Just imagine if I could throw a single grenade that did 80% dmg to a proto heavy if the heavy was anywhere in the blast radius....would that be considered "balanced"? No it wouldnt and this is exactly what you are arguing for and if you cant see that logic then there is no point in discussing it further because you are blinded by your own desire to continue to use this weapon. The Flux nade does what it does. Destroy shields. Its called the Metagame, get used to it, EVE has lots of it and so will Dust. As it is right now, shields are the way to go. They recharge faster and don't slow you down like plates do. That's why the Flux is fine, it counters a more effective shielding system. And about locus nades, unlike Flux nades, they damage both shields and armor. So I'm giving up the ability to take down someones armor in exchange for a more effective anti shield grenade. Then they need a nade that when thrown does 1200 dmg to armor only that i can use against heavies. Hey its meta game man. I love your argument. Literally its so illogical you can use it to defend anything and just call it metagame. I think ccp should give ppl the ability to call in a gundam to completely whipe the map of all enemies.....its not OP its called meta game you noob. Why dont you come back with well reasoned arguments on why a weapon should exist that can completely kill 80% of a players HP if they are even slightly in the AOE when there is no corresponding nade that is as effective against the other hp option. 1200 to Armor will insta kill a player, considering that there is no third layer to the suit :) Which is another reason why shield is better, you get a buffer to run into cover. I have survived wirh 0 armor. Taking armor down to zero and not affecting shields would not insta kill a char.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 186	Posted - 2013.04.06 17:51:00 - [47] - Quote have some sympathy for cat merc. His corp just lost some shield tankers.
Cat Merc OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 417	Posted - 2013.04.06 17:59:00 - [48] - Quote 0 Try Harder wrote: have some sympathy for cat merc. His corp just lost some shield tankers. Hey bunny, if you mean Charlotte, then the nerf suggested in that thread won't affect anything P.S Next time when trolling, insert your name here.
Tolen Rosas Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 72	Posted - 2013.04.06 19:26:00 - [49] - Quote quit whining. take away its ability to kill and its fine. the better ones should have increased range.
Cat Merc OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 418	Posted - 2013.04.06 19:28:00 - [50] - Quote Tolen Rosas wrote: quit whining. take away its ability to kill and its fine. the better ones should have increased range. They do have increased range... Unless you mean even more range, in which case I have no comment as I don't know whether to say yes or no.



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