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Aeon Amadi
WarRavens
1132
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Posted - 2013.04.04 03:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
NOTE: DO NOT ANSWER THE BELOW QUESTIONS, THEY ARE PROVIDED AS A BASIS FOR THE THEORY
This theory started out mostly as an attempt to answer a systematic list of questions:
1.) Is there a "mass system" in play that reduces turn/movement/sprint speed based on the mass of the dropsuit?
2.) If so, do modules that increase mass (Armor Plating) have any affect on the turn/movement/sprint speed?
3.) If not, is the "Mass System" more of a proverbial or metaphorical impact - I.E: are the numbers pre-dictated by the suit?
4.) In the event of a Mass System being in play, does the mass increase of a dropsuit's modules have any affect on it's turn speed?
This lead to a series of tests involving using every weapon available on every suit available. All suits and weapons were conducted at Militia levels, save for weapons that a militia variant was unavailable. In which case, a Standard variant was substituted.
Tests were conducted at a total of five times per selection and averaged out, rounded to the nearest whole second.
The results showed that there is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE between the Scout/Assault/Logistics suit. BASE is the dropsuit's turn speed -WITHOUT- using ADS (Aiming Down the Sights). The WEAPON results are -WITH- using ADS. Results are arranged from fastest to the slowest turn speed.
Results are shown as the AMOUNT OF TIME to achieve a FULL ROTATION.
Scout/Assault/Logistics Turn Speed:
Base Speed ----------------- (2 seconds)
Assault Rifle ---------------- (6 seconds)
Mass Driver ----------------- (6 seconds)
Scrambler Pistol ---------- (7 seconds)
Submachine Gun ---------- (10 seconds)
Shotgun ---------------------- (10 seconds)
Laser Rifle ------------------- (14 seconds)
Sniper Rifle ------------------ (18 seconds)
Heavy Turn Speed:
Base Speed ----------------- (3 seconds) +1 seconds
Assault Rifle ---------------- (8 seconds) +2 seconds
Mass Driver ----------------- (9 seconds) +2 seconds
Scrambler Pistol ---------- (9 seconds) +2 seconds
Heavy Machine Gun ------ (10 seconds) N/A
Submachine Gun ---------- (14 seconds) +4 seconds
Shotgun ---------------------- (14 seconds) +4 seconds
Laser Rifle ------------------- (19 seconds) +5 seconds
Sniper Rifle ------------------ (23 seconds) +5 seconds
With these results in mind, it is (numerically) possible, and entirely plausible that a Heavy with a Heavy Machine Gun could turn (while aiming down the sights) as fast as a Scout with a Shotgun (who was also aiming down the sights).
The next test was to see if applying Mass Increasing modules like the Armor Plating affected the turn speed in any way. Applying Complex Armor Plating (+10% mass) had an impact on the turn speed.
Base Speed ----------------- (NOT TESTED)
Assault Rifle ---------------- (9 seconds) +1 second
Mass Driver ----------------- (10 seconds) +1 second
Scrambler Pistol ---------- (NOT TESTED)
Submachine Gun ---------- (15 seconds) +1 second
Shotgun ---------------------- (15 seconds) +1 second
Laser Rifle ------------------- (21 seconds) +2 seconds
Sniper Rifle ------------------ (NOT TESTED)
With these results, we can safely say that increasing the mass of your dropsuit (at least on a Heavy) will affect your turn speed.
This led to a new question:
1.) Does the Mass System affect the Strafe Speed of a dropsuit, not just it's turn/movement/sprint speed?
2.) If not, to what degree are the results pre-dictated?
The next test involved all four dropsuits strafing at a distance of 25 meters to a Supply Depot over four separate tests, with the averages rounded off to the nearest whole second.
Results shown are the amount of time taken to cross a 25 meter distance.
Scout: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 6 seconds
Assault/Logistics/Heavy: ----------------------------------------------------------- 8 seconds
Heavy with +10% mass from Complex Armor Plating: -------------------- 10 seconds
Okay. So this shows that there IS a difference in how fast each Dropsuit strafes, and even goes so far as to show that the Mass System does hamper your strafe speed if you apply armor plating.
But what does this all mean, Aeon? What does it matter?
What this means is that it is SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO OUT-STRAFE YOUR TARGET - no matter what suit you/they have, no matter what gun you/they have, no matter if either of you are Aiming Down the Sights, no matter what your fitting is, no matter what range. It is simply an impossibility.
How do you figure?
Consider this. A Scout with no modules attached can strafe 25 meters in 6 seconds. Break that down and you have about 4.16 meters per second. That's not very fast, but it is faster than everyone else.
Now, assuming the absolute WORST SCENARIO: A Heavy with a single Complex Armor Plate and a Heavy Machine Gun...
At a distance of 25 meters (our Radius) the Circumference would be 78.54 meters. That's a long distance.
At a distance of 25 meters, you could travel a full circle around the Heavy at 37.76 seconds. In that time he could Aim Down the Sights of the Heavy Machine Gun and he could turn 4 FULL CIRCLES.
At a distance of 10 meters, you could travel a full circle around the Heavy at 15.10 seconds. In that time he could Aim Down the Sights of the Heavy Machine Gun and he could turn almost 2 FULL CIRCLES.
And that's just Aiming Down the Sights.
Even at danger close ranges (2.5 METERS) ANY SUIT can turn fast enough to fire on you, with ANY WEAPON, with ANY FITTING.
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Aeon Amadi
WarRavens
1138
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Posted - 2013.04.05 06:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
So, rather than jumping the gun like I usually do and responding to every thread I decided to lurk for a bit and see where it goes.
And my response to you all is this (also included is the TL;DR version):
You can't outstrafe someone's gunfire or their "tracking" speed. This is an Eve Online tactic that is widely used called Skirmish Warfare. You either have to distance yourself to a point where you are out of their effective range, or be able to move faster than they can "track" you. In this case, it is impossible to do that by going in one direction. Reason being is simply because every dropsuit can turn faster than you can physically move, even at extremely close ranges.
You can theoretically "out-strafe" someone's gunfire by "zig-zag" or "circle" strafing (as these are the most commonly used methods) however BOTH of which would require that you - at least once - have to cross into their stream of gunfire. Why does this matter? As a Scout, despite having such high agility and speed, you are almost inevitably going to die.
How do you figure, Aeon?
A scout has - with all skills at level 5 - about 146 shields and 112 armor. This means that it's EHP (effective hit points) is 258.
Consider this. I can technically out-run a Heavy's turn speed if I'm close enough, but in order to do so I have to sprint. I can't strafe. Why is this a problem? Because I can't fire back. I could technically sprint circles around him but given that his turn speed (without ADS) is 3 seconds, it's going to be insanely difficult for me to sprint to his backside and then open up on him before he has an opportunity to fire back.
Which means that I have to risk (in order to fire back) strafing. This is an issue because the Heavy Machine Gun pumps out about 528 DPS (and, for the record, that's the standard variant with no skills attached). Meaning that he could kill me in half a second's worth of bullets.
And that's assuming that I'm in the best position to out-maneuver him, and he's in the worst position to track me.
To the person that said "you didn't take into account sensitivity", I have this to say: My sensitivity is at 40. Even then, sensitivity has nothing to do with it as Dropsuits have hard-coded turn speeds based on Mass. A person with a sensitivity setting of 100 will still only be able to turn as fast as their dropsuit will allow them.
To the person who said "Mass doesn't affect Speed, in real life or in-game": It does affect VELOCITY, where as SPEED is technically VELOCITY in this case. While that logic does apply in Space, on the ground (where gravity has influence) your mass most definitely will hamper your Velocity. The more mass something has, the more force is required to accelerate it to a given speed. This holds true in Dust 514 as increasing the mass (as can be clearly shown in my test results) reduces not only movement/sprint speed but also turn speed.
Try putting on some armor plating and watch your movement/sprint speed go down on your fitting screen.
EVEN IF YOU WERE CORRECT (which I am not at all saying that you are) then why are the test results different after adding +10% mass from the Complex Armor Plating? Don't believe me, go see for yourself. Put some armor plates on and check your before/after turn speed. |
Aeon Amadi
WarRavens
1138
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 06:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:These are valid experimental results and worth a shitload more than all the pontificating going on in this thread.
The value of empirical results like these is that it allows us to eliminate a possible source of uncertainty and focus our attention on a reduced subset of a larger problem.
In this case, the implication is that effective strafe is attributable to two sources: 1) player characteristics(reaction time, predictive model, manual skills) and 2) network/server issues(lag, a simple word for a complex phenomenon, hit detection, etc.).
The next generation of experiments should address lag, a much tougher nut to crack.
I can -try- (keyword there) to influence my own personal lag by running a bunch of downloads while I play, but this will have to wait for a later date when I am not overwhelmed with work (contradictory to my having the test results in the first place, I know =P) |
Aeon Amadi
WarRavens
1138
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 08:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:well the fact that straffing speed are lame since codex isnt news. Though i appreciate the work. Quote:Results shown are the amount of time taken to cross a 25 meter distance.
Scout: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 6 seconds
Assault/Logistics/Heavy: ----------------------------------------------------------- 8 seconds
Heavy with +10% mass from Complex Armor Plating: -------------------- 10 seconds So now, can anyone give me a good justification to why HEAVIES and ASSAULT have the same native strafe speed when their nativement movement stats are very different ? That doesnt make any sense and it's responsible for many QQ and nerfs, that led to many new QQ and nerfs etc... Same goes with turning speed using a HMG. And to the persons saying "that doesnt include controller sensitivity", changing sensitivity wont alter the relative difference between suits and weapons regarding turning speed.
I wondered that myself. Considering that the Scout had it's strafe speed matched with the Assault dropsuit (until a recent "fix" that made it a bit faster) there's still not much going for the Scout and while Cloaking may help, it's not going to bring back the feel of the CQC Scout. My issue is that I feel that Cloaking isn't going to be Scout specific.
Suffice to say, considering the fact that Wolfman stated:
CCP Wolfman wrote:This item is going to be a real game changer, particularly for Scout dropsuits which have been screaming out for stealth gear.
The return of the CQC Scout is looking pretty grim. They're currently -okay- but it's really a situation/circumstance sort of thing. If you miss with your shotgun (something that happens often with Hitbox Lag/Lag Compensation, something I'll touch up on in a future post) you've just given them all the reason in the world to turn around and light you up, so there's not much room for error.
But it works both ways I suppose. I still sort of wish that the Scout was just... faster... Something to give it an edge. |
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