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2-Ton Twenty-One
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
391
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 02:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
There should be Match making in pug based on KDR and SP combination. Squads would run on a combined score, so you cannot smurf matches. IF the score difference was massive between 2 players it would put you in the FFA matches. or round up. or calculated it so someone as good/bad was also in the game to even the teams. Plenty of options/games to take notes from to make a good system.
******But it should be a voluntary pre-enabled option so if people want play with better or worse people they can disable it and play in FFA matches.
Possible options for FFA Matches Those people would be able to play in the FFA match making matches. FFA match making matches would have a different KDR stat set then MM matches. Or no recorded KDRs. That way if people wanted to play in a no holes barred match and play with people above their level to learn from fighting against they can without fear of it screwing them over in their precious KDR.
(I personally Don't have a F to give about KDR I evaluate players for recruitment based on personal observation and never underestimate my opponent, I apply maximum skill at all times least I become soft when it counts) |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2302
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 03:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
When KDR is a valid measure of my skill as a Logi, you'll get a +1 from me. |
XxWarlordxX97
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1171
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 03:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
2-Ton Twenty-One wrote:There should be Match making in pug based on KDR and SP combination. Squads would run on a combined score, so you cannot smurf matches. IF the score difference was massive between 2 players it would put you in the FFA matches. or round up. or calculated it so someone as good/bad was also in the game to even the teams. Plenty of options/games to take notes from to make a good system.
******But it should be a voluntary pre-enabled option so if people want play with better or worse people they can disable it and play in FFA matches.
Possible options for FFA Matches Those people would be able to play in the FFA match making matches. FFA match making matches would have a different KDR stat set then MM matches. Or no recorded KDRs. That way if people wanted to play in a no holes barred match and play with people above their level to learn from fighting against they can without fear of it screwing them over in their precious KDR.
(I personally Don't have a F to give about KDR I evaluate players for recruitment based on personal observation and never underestimate my opponent, I apply maximum skill at all times least I become soft when it counts)
Awesome idea |
JL3Eleven
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
250
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Posted - 2013.04.01 03:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
If only Skirmish was recording stats properly |
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
6
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Posted - 2013.04.01 03:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
2-Ton Twenty-One wrote:There should be Match making in pug based on KDR and SP combination. Squads would run on a combined score, so you cannot smurf matches. IF the score difference was massive between 2 players it would put you in the FFA matches. or round up. or calculated it so someone as good/bad was also in the game to even the teams. Plenty of options/games to take notes from to make a good system.
******But it should be a voluntary pre-enabled option so if people want play with better or worse people they can disable it and play in FFA matches.
Possible options for FFA Matches Those people would be able to play in the FFA match making matches. FFA match making matches would have a different KDR stat set then MM matches. Or no recorded KDRs. That way if people wanted to play in a no holes barred match and play with people above their level to learn from fighting against they can without fear of it screwing them over in their precious KDR.
(I personally Don't have a F to give about KDR I evaluate players for recruitment based on personal observation and never underestimate my opponent, I apply maximum skill at all times least I become soft when it counts)
i would like to not ask the devs to spend any more time on pug's. they work fine, and in the end they'll be useless. let's keep a broader perspective. |
2-Ton Twenty-One
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
393
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 03:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:When KDR is a valid measure of my skill as a Logi, you'll get a +1 from me.
I know many logis that hold their own in a firefight, but you do have a point and you can disable it if you dont want to play in those matches, and if you end up beating other players your kdr would rise would it not? thus you would be raised until you reach a point where you where not performing well. I am sure the game could tweak your MM score if you where winning lots of matches but your KDR was staying unchanged. it would keep bumping you in small increments until you start to get crushed. |
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 03:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
2-Ton Twenty-One wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:When KDR is a valid measure of my skill as a Logi, you'll get a +1 from me. I know many logis that hold their own in a firefight, but you do have a point and you can disable it if you dont want to play in those matches, and if you end up beating other players your kdr would rise would it not? thus you would be raised until you reach a point where you where not performing well. I am sure the game could tweak your MM score if you where winning lots of matches but your KDR was staying unchanged. it would keep bumping you in small increments until you start to get crushed.
i have to agree. discounting kdr in a game where kills matter, and even more than that, the kdr of your team matters... seems silly. |
2-Ton Twenty-One
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
394
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 03:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
low genius wrote: i would like to not ask the devs to spend any more time on pug's. they work fine, and in the end they'll be useless. let's keep a broader perspective.
the broader perspective is giving new players a chance to learn at a reasonable rate. And how do they work fine? back that up. As in they run without crashing the game? |
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 03:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
2-Ton Twenty-One wrote:low genius wrote: i would like to not ask the devs to spend any more time on pug's. they work fine, and in the end they'll be useless. let's keep a broader perspective.
the broader perspective is giving new players a chance to learn at a reasonable rate. And how do they work fine? back that up. As in they run without crashing the game?
as for how they work fine: these matches mean nothing, in the grand scheme of things. they're to let new players gain some skillpoints and get a feel for the mechanics of the game. is it messed up that people are using aur gear and proto suits in a pug? yes, but that also doesn't matter, because you're only playing those silly pugs to get skillpoints so you can play the real game.
you're drawing a line between a player who started today, and a player who started a month ago. that's nothing in eve. that's nothing in dust 514. how much greater will the discrepancy be when some guys have 50 million skillpoints? it won't matter, because it won't be valuable to that player who has 50 million skillpoints to play a stupid pug. there's no money in it.
it's looking like the first 12 million skillpoints make a big difference, and after that, not so much. this is pretty much in line with eve, where you need about 12 or 14 months worth of skills to be good at what you do, and after that the difference between a good player and a bad player is the crew he runs with.
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2303
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 03:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
low genius wrote:2-Ton Twenty-One wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:When KDR is a valid measure of my skill as a Logi, you'll get a +1 from me. I know many logis that hold their own in a firefight, but you do have a point and you can disable it if you dont want to play in those matches, and if you end up beating other players your kdr would rise would it not? thus you would be raised until you reach a point where you where not performing well. I am sure the game could tweak your MM score if you where winning lots of matches but your KDR was staying unchanged. it would keep bumping you in small increments until you start to get crushed. i have to agree. discounting kdr in a game where kills matter, and even more than that, the kdr of your team matters... seems silly. And discounting the value of someone reviving teammates when a revival negates the importance of the loss is also silly.
So is discounting the value of keeping someone supplied with ammo when they need it to get more kills.
So is discounting the importance of patching up damage, either during a fight or between encounters, so the person can get even more kills before going down.
So is discounting the value of area denial, where you have someone who gets very few kills but forces the enemy to stay in your team's killing field.
So is discounting the value of a good support sniper who mostly keeps your team supplied with intel and enemy positions/facings to better flank them, and takes the first shot on an enemy to leave them vulnerable.
There are plenty of reasons for a good player - or even a great one - to have a lower K/D than a decent killer.
TL;DR version: By sacrificing my own KDR, I often significantly improve the average KDR of my team over what we'd have if I was just another 5:1 killer. |
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2-Ton Twenty-One
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
394
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 03:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:low genius wrote:2-Ton Twenty-One wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:When KDR is a valid measure of my skill as a Logi, you'll get a +1 from me. I know many logis that hold their own in a firefight, but you do have a point and you can disable it if you dont want to play in those matches, and if you end up beating other players your kdr would rise would it not? thus you would be raised until you reach a point where you where not performing well. I am sure the game could tweak your MM score if you where winning lots of matches but your KDR was staying unchanged. it would keep bumping you in small increments until you start to get crushed. i have to agree. discounting kdr in a game where kills matter, and even more than that, the kdr of your team matters... seems silly. And discounting the value of someone reviving teammates when a revival negates the importance of the loss is also silly. So is discounting the value of keeping someone supplied with ammo when they need it to get more kills. So is discounting the importance of patching up damage, either during a fight or between encounters, so the person can get even more kills before going down. So is discounting the value of area denial, where you have someone who gets very few kills but forces the enemy to stay in your team's killing field. So is discounting the value of a good support sniper who mostly keeps your team supplied with intel and enemy positions/facings to better flank them, and takes the first shot on an enemy to leave them vulnerable. There are plenty of reasons for a good player - or even a great one - to have a lower K/D than a decent killer. TL;DR version: By sacrificing my own KDR, I often significantly improve the average KDR of my team over what we'd have if I was just another 5:1 killer.
and as the MM was running it would drag down the 5:1 killers would it not? You dont seem to understand that as you play the MM over and over the game would calculate your value to the team. If a bunch of 5:1 killers started fighting each other clearly they cant all go 5:1 now can they? and as their KDR got brought down from fighting each other your low KDR would mean more would it not? And does a 5:1 solo player like me running around right now need a logi? does he need your help? no he does not.
I don't need your help. When I fight a match where I do ill invite ya. understand? and under the MM I will eventually need your help. But right now your a burden or unnecessary to my success.
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Icy Xenosmilus
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
39
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Posted - 2013.04.01 03:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Read my thread. |
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
362
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 03:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
Well, I think you have the support of the animal rights folks, as I'm sure they don't like all the pug stomping going on in Dust. |
Dalton Smithe
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
75
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 03:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
2-Ton Twenty-One wrote:There should be Match making in pug based on KDR and SP combination. Squads would run on a combined score, so you cannot smurf matches. IF the score difference was massive between 2 players it would put you in the FFA matches. or round up. or calculated it so someone as good/bad was also in the game to even the teams. Plenty of options/games to take notes from to make a good system.
******But it should be a voluntary pre-enabled option so if people want play with better or worse people they can disable it and play in FFA matches.
Possible options for FFA Matches Those people would be able to play in the FFA match making matches. FFA match making matches would have a different KDR stat set then MM matches. Or no recorded KDRs. That way if people wanted to play in a no holes barred match and play with people above their level to learn from fighting against they can without fear of it screwing them over in their precious KDR.
(I personally Don't have a F to give about KDR I evaluate players for recruitment based on personal observation and never underestimate my opponent, I apply maximum skill at all times least I become soft when it counts)
+1 for this. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2303
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 04:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
2-Ton Twenty-One wrote:and as the MM was running it would drag down the 5:1 killers would it not? You dont seem to understand that as you play the MM over and over the game would calculate your value to the team. If a bunch of 5:1 killers started fighting each other clearly they cant all go 5:1 now can they? and as their KDR got brought down from fighting each other your low KDR would mean more would it not? And does a 5:1 solo player like me running around right now need a logi? does he need your help? no he does not.
I don't need your help. When I fight a match where I do ill invite ya. understand? and under the MM I will eventually need your help. But right now your a burden or unnecessary to my success. If you're a 5:1 killer without a good logi, and you're going 15:1 because of him/her, but the Logi is dying with you and only running 1:1 himself, then between you, that's 8:1 average.
Because of you, his contribution is valuable. Because of him, your contribution is MORE valuable than it would be without.
But his 1:1 K/D stat will either pull you out of the system, or will result in you being paired well below the squad's actual skill. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
241
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 05:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
No. Kdr is a useless stat. |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic
705
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 05:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
But if you have all the pros going up against pros then they'll eventually they'll balance each other out putting them all back with the noobs. |
DJINN Marauder
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
413
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 05:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
FFA Matches would get stomped by tankers :( |
Laheon
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
336
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 06:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
As Buster said. KDR is useless.
I've gone over the virtues of a average WP per match system before, though. |
XiBangBang
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2013.04.01 06:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Or WP per Min.? |
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2-Ton Twenty-One
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
404
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 09:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:2-Ton Twenty-One wrote:and as the MM was running it would drag down the 5:1 killers would it not? You dont seem to understand that as you play the MM over and over the game would calculate your value to the team. If a bunch of 5:1 killers started fighting each other clearly they cant all go 5:1 now can they? and as their KDR got brought down from fighting each other your low KDR would mean more would it not? And does a 5:1 solo player like me running around right now need a logi? does he need your help? no he does not.
I don't need your help. When I fight a match where I do ill invite ya. understand? and under the MM I will eventually need your help. But right now your a burden or unnecessary to my success. If you're a 5:1 killer without a good logi, and you're going 15:1 because of him/her, but the Logi is dying with you and only running 1:1 himself, then between you, that's 8:1 average. Because of you, his contribution is valuable. Because of him, your contribution is MORE valuable than it would be without. But his 1:1 K/D stat will either pull you out of the system, or will result in you being paired well below the squad's actual skill.
plenty of logis can pull a high KDR stat so your point is sort of invalid. If anything you will just end up going against squads with similar MM splits (it would have to be a high difference to yank you, and if you pulling a lot of wins then the game would keep bumping you higher until you started losing multiple matches. Tons of MM games do this.
And like you said its a 8:1 average so it could just use that right?, so didn't you answer your own problem? if the average KDR on all players on both sides of a team is calculated 1 sides is going to rise while the other falls, so either you will die more and thus it would push you lower or you would die less and it would push you higher. until that KDR 8:1 average was full of players who are using team skills right? and then they would get their KDR pushed lower because now they are both killing each other as effectively. So no matter what people are going to be pushed up or down. Its self regulating. Like if you as a logi played without your buddy and you solo you would have to do more killing at some point right? if you cant fill the gap you fall in the MMR if you can you get pushed higher. Sink or swim, and it still works. |
Wakko03
Better Hide R Die
135
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 16:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
Wow, all this discussion about this and nobody brings up a fact that a simple solution to possibly start with would be to make solo vs solo and squads vs squads.
But then again the current Q-sync success rates have always seemed to favor certain players /corps, not to mention the games perchant to make you fight the same people 5-6 times in an hour because apparently you are the only 32 people playing.
Getting back to my opening statement, Squads on one side randoms on the other with maybe one squad, then add in the latest ccp flops....a la - we fixed spawning in ambush; which translate into very successful precision strikes for any (currently) 4 man squad with a tanker to unleash on the 8-16 suckers they can get to spawn in one location; 2nd flop would be making players face enemies with unusual over-seas latency by removing server locales.
Side rant.... ccp you give me any more freaking shotguns as salvage and I am going to go nuts. 300kr17's is more than enough. |
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