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dalt ud
Vacuum Cleaner. LLC
80
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Posted - 2013.03.31 22:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
Now game too hard for newbie. They came, meet prototype, almost immortal, enemies and die die die.
In the future a problem become THE PROBLEM.
I know EVE is unfriendly for newbie too, but newbies have choice between PvE and PvP. In dust514 they have no choice. And even PvE mode not resolve this problem in the future, because it is shooter.
As example now guys who played at start have 7-10kk skill points. The difference between newbie and this guys is too high. Game definitely need something resolving this problem.
As guy who have protogear i have not many fun when i kill defenseless newbies
May be cheap "newbie boosters" will help
You have <1kk SP - you can buy +100-200% weekly active booster for 1000 aur You have 1-2kk SP - you can buy +100-150% weekly active booster for 2000 aur You have 2-3kk SP you can buy +100% weekly active booster for 3000 aur You have 3-4kk SP you can buy standart +50% weekly active booster for 3500 aur You have 4+kk SP you can buy standart booster for standart cost So newbies got half way to maximum, and accustomed to using the boosters
As alternate method to get this "newbie boosters" - give them as salvage at end of the round.
Guy have <1kk SP - he have chance to get +100-200% weekly active booster as salvage - chance depend by WP he got, more WP - more chance (but he can activate it if he have <1kk SP, not more, when he got 1kk this boosters is annihilate or something) Guy have 1-2kk SP - he have chance to get +100-150% weekly active booster as salvage - chance depend by WP he got, more WP - more chance (but he can activate it if he have not more than 1-2kk SP, when he got 2kk this boosters is annihilate or just cannot be used) and etc
in the future, when maximum of SP will increase - you can increase limits for "newbie boosters"
I think CCP will got more money with this system, and in same time make game more friendly for newbies.
But something must to do with this problem.
p.s. sorry for bad english |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
0
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Posted - 2013.03.31 22:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
In EvE we have this thing called Malcanis' Law - Any change intended to benefit the new players will inevitably benefit the older players more. So - if you have newbie boosters, and an old player has, say, a proto assault guy, and they want a tanker, they could make an alt account and accrue SP at a much higher rate than they would if they were cross-training from their main. Also, what's stopping people from buying 40 of the best newbie boosters and using them for most of the year when they start out? |
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
214
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Posted - 2013.03.31 22:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
The difference isn't all that extreme anyway. I can survive just fine and I use militia gear pretty much exclusively. |
The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
325
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Posted - 2013.03.31 22:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
There will be a PvE Aspect to the game also.... consider that the 'Swarm Mode' is a PvE ground.
I'm often suggesting campaign-style missions (like single levels of popular FPS shooters) that would allow PvE players, and also get newer players SP and ISK to start running with the bigger boys. |
dalt ud
Vacuum Cleaner. LLC
80
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 22:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Also, what's stopping people from buying 40 of the best newbie boosters and using them for most of the year when they start out?
This boosters will not work when he reach limit SP for this booster.
Or something like this:
he bought 40 newbie boosters for 1000 auro
he used 10 of them and got 1kk SP, his 30 boosters transformed to 15 boosters with cost 2000 aur
he used 5 of them and got 2kk SP - his 10 boosters transformed to 5 boosters with cost 300 aur.
and etc.
Or just make big WARNING "This booster will not work after 1kk SP, not buy too many of them"
Or something else. |
dalt ud
Vacuum Cleaner. LLC
80
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 22:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe wrote:The difference isn't all that extreme anyway. I can survive just fine and I use militia gear pretty much exclusively.
You can do it, me can do it, but try to explain it for guy with prejudgement about MMO
Not so many of players ready to fight vs prototype guys. ISome my friends even dont begin play, because they know about this difference in MMO |
Judge Rhadamanthus
Vacuum Cleaner. LLC
37
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Posted - 2013.03.31 23:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
I am a DS pilot. 4.0 mill sp but only 280 000 in gun game.
Weaponry 2 Sharpshooter 3 Lazer Rifle 1
Armour boost at lvl5 Shield boost lvl 4
and that's it. The rest is all Militia fit. now I don't do great but almost always get top half of the group and almost always get a decent KDR (with some fails too). Sometime I get top.
I have found in most games, ambush more than skirmish, there are proto guys on both sides and they balance each other out. The main issue is when there is proto on one side and none on the other. I do see the problem but as one of those who is at the bad end of the scale it's not too bad. yes it sucks often but I still win many game, still have a good time.
As long as the teams both have a balanced mix then it works out. Boosting players negates effort made by vets. In other MMOs I have seen this lead to a lot of bad feeling. Also a lot of bad players. New players boosting gear up quickly get the gear but not the time to learn the game/maps/tactics. In other MMOs this lead to these boosted players thinking they were all that, as they had the gear and then hammering the devs to nerf everything as they struggled. They reasoned that "I have proto gear but keep getting killed, nerf XXXX".
They assume since they have Proto gear they should be awesome. When they are not they blame the game and want to dumb it down. So while your OP is a well constructed view on balancing I wonder if it's really needed.
Also you English is just great. |
LT apparition
A.I.
31
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Posted - 2013.04.01 00:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
I GOT SOMETHING EVERYONE SHOULD APPLY
" Knowledge and Patience, is the ONLY COUNTER to Skill."
for newbies/and veterans Alike you should apply this logic to your play style... i often gather info on my enemy before i engage in combat, every-time that i haven't i end up getting killed....playing smart is the a great way to defeat Anyone.
An example: Well lets say you got a Proto-assault on ya, well there are options other than having a Gun Fight with him, and often times you might lose because fact the Proto has better combat effectiveness, with the amount of Modules they have on them. instead of Direct Action, try a new approach " In Direct Action" I.E. this means uses tricks like Remote Explosives, or flux grenades, and don't push beyond advantage...
anyway... i don't think they should change a thing... Just Fight Smarter Blue-Berries.
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KalOfTheRathi
Talon Strike Force LTD
303
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Posted - 2013.04.01 04:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
First to the OP, sorry but this is just doomed to failure. With very little effort the community was able to offer several attacks on your methods and they seem plausible to me. Give them more time and real reasons (like your ideas actually being implemented) you would no doubt be horrified at their ingenuity.
Second, you do not see the mechanisms behind the game as CCP surely does. They have plans* and the plan in place if for several years of effort on the part of Both CCP/Shanghai and the Players to come to grips with the totality of this game.
The current calculation from CCP is that it will take seven years to fill out the Skill Tree. That is disregarding that New Skills are going to be released with the next build (early May). One can safely assume that each year will see several releases and some of them will have new Skills that will require new efforts from new and established players alike.
* Those plans already include a new Battle Finder that will enable better matching for Battles. Many things have been mentioned and we Players know little about the actual solution. Filters are a big possibility and can address the very issues you discuss without game breaking mechanics such as you propose. |
Valkreena Haederox
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2013.04.01 05:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm not having trouble in my newbie gear.
Materiel makes a difference, but learnin to work around the gear differences improves my skill. |
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dalt ud
Vacuum Cleaner. LLC
82
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 06:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:First to the OP, sorry but this is just doomed to failure. With very little effort the community was able to offer several attacks on your methods and they seem plausible to me. Give them more time and real reasons (like your ideas actually being implemented) you would no doubt be horrified at their ingenuity.
Second, you do not see the mechanisms behind the game as CCP surely does. They have plans* and the plan in place if for several years of effort on the part of Both CCP/Shanghai and the Players to come to grips with the totality of this game.
The current calculation from CCP is that it will take seven years to fill out the Skill Tree. That is disregarding that New Skills are going to be released with the next build (early May). One can safely assume that each year will see several releases and some of them will have new Skills that will require new efforts from new and established players alike.
* Those plans already include a new Battle Finder that will enable better matching for Battles. Many things have been mentioned and we Players know little about the actual solution. Filters are a big possibility and can address the very issues you discuss without game breaking mechanics such as you propose.
I believe they have the plan for resolve all problems in the future, may be even this problem.
But i want to invite some my friends to this game. They know what MMO is, and ask me about this difference between newbies and prototype guys. I told "yes, it is exist", but i want to answer for them "yes, it is exist, but pursue will not so hard".
Now system is no problem for guys with specific mind. We, who play this game long enough - have this mind.
But the majority of people are different. So if you all want to see this game popular - something must be done with this problem.
I played other MMO before, almost in each game devs give newbies easy way to get 1/3 way to maximum level.
So i hope this game will popular not only among specific group of people (best word is "nerds", sorry ) but game will among all people. |
dalt ud
Vacuum Cleaner. LLC
82
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 06:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Valkreena Haederox wrote:I'm not having trouble in my newbie gear.
Materiel makes a difference, but learnin to work around the gear differences improves my skill.
Man, i see how guys who have prototype gear and have skill have Kill Death Ratio around 6-15. They usually play with 20-30 kills and 1-2 death all the time except when play vs each other.
You all have no problem in newbie gear? Say my your KD then.
I am tired by playing versus team of newbies, it is not interesting at all, it is just boring genocide. Even guys who have skills - have almost no chances coz gear difference.
Its not bragging, it is sad |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2307
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 07:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'm a Scout in a Standard (or Dragonfly) Dropsuit.
I have a Shotgun.
Enemy Standard Assault knows that a Scout is probably a deadly threat in CQC, and keeps distance.
Protosuit rushes straight in because "he can't kill me, I'm in a Protosuit".
My buffed Scan Profile means he can't see me coming. My bufed Scan Precision means I can see him coming.
I move around to the side as he's turning to face where I'm hiding, and because of my timing, he misses the faint trace of movement that could have given me away. I end up standing behind him with my Shotgun to the back of his head.
Protosuit dies, Standard Assault guy sees me coming out of cover and opens fire with his AR, almost killing me before I can sprint back into cover.
The guy in the Protosuit died specifically BECAUSE of his gear. He relied on his "gear advantage" to the detriment of intelligent play.
Good, smart, cautious players in Protogear are terrifying. Good, smart, cautious players in Militia and Standard gear are terrifying to average players in Protoype gear. |
dalt ud
Vacuum Cleaner. LLC
82
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 09:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:I'm a Scout in a Standard (or Dragonfly) Dropsuit.
I have a Shotgun.
Enemy Standard Assault knows that a Scout is probably a deadly threat in CQC, and keeps distance.
Protosuit rushes straight in because "he can't kill me, I'm in a Protosuit".
My buffed Scan Profile means he can't see me coming. My bufed Scan Precision means I can see him coming.
I move around to the side as he's turning to face where I'm hiding, and because of my timing, he misses the faint trace of movement that could have given me away. I end up standing behind him with my Shotgun to the back of his head.
Protosuit dies, Standard Assault guy sees me coming out of cover and opens fire with his AR, almost killing me before I can sprint back into cover.
The guy in the Protosuit died specifically BECAUSE of his gear. He relied on his "gear advantage" to the detriment of intelligent play.
Good, smart, cautious players in Protogear are terrifying. Good, smart, cautious players in Militia and Standard gear are terrifying to average players in Protoype gear.
Yes, even newbie shotgun can be dangerous for prototype guys if shotgun user is smart. But this is the only exception. And anyway you need some upgraded skills for it. |
Michael Arck
Commando Perkone Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 09:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
Don't give this noob any boosters. I want a fight. You cannot destroy what you did not create.
For the state |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2310
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 09:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
dalt ud wrote:Yes, even newbie shotgun can be dangerous for prototype guys if shotgun user is smart. But this is the only exception. And anyway you need some upgraded skills for it. Militia Heavy. Militia Forge Gun. Total of 0 SP investment in skills directly related to either of those things. Minimal risk of self-harm vs. one-shot potential against even Prototype Heavies.
Good grenadiers can - using Militia Locus Grenades - kill off most Protosuits with minimal risk to themselves.
And while a few SPs into Shotgun Ops will help, it isn't a necessity. It makes the weapon more consistent, but it isn't required for it to be functional. And eve if you did need some investment, you start with the better part of 500,000 SP unallocated and ready to be assigned where you want it.
Militia AR or Exile with sufficient SP investment is only about 50 dps short of the Proto version, you gain more from adding damage mods than from upgrading the weapon.
Even at Standard tier, a Flux Grenade/Mass Driver combo can put a world of hurt onto a Protosuit.
Laser/SMG combo can obliterate Protosuits even with Standard gear if you're good.
Skill > SP > gear. |
dalt ud
Vacuum Cleaner. LLC
82
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 09:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:dalt ud wrote:Yes, even newbie shotgun can be dangerous for prototype guys if shotgun user is smart. But this is the only exception. And anyway you need some upgraded skills for it. Militia Heavy. Militia Forge Gun. Total of 0 SP investment in skills directly related to either of those things. Minimal risk of self-harm vs. one-shot potential against even Prototype Heavies. Good grenadiers can - using Militia Locus Grenades - kill off most Protosuits with minimal risk to themselves. And while a few SPs into Shotgun Ops will help, it isn't a necessity. It makes the weapon more consistent, but it isn't required for it to be functional. And eve if you did need some investment, you start with the better part of 500,000 SP unallocated and ready to be assigned where you want it. Militia AR or Exile with sufficient SP investment is only about 50 dps short of the Proto version, you gain more from adding damage mods than from upgrading the weapon. Even at Standard tier, a Flux Grenade/Mass Driver combo can put a world of hurt onto a Protosuit. Laser/SMG combo can obliterate Protosuits even with Standard gear if you're good. Skill > SP > gear.
Yes, skill >> all. But how about skilled guys in prototype assault gear who have 6-10 KD? I have almost 6 now, and it is raise every day.
Where is this hero guys in militia suits who stop us?
I see no them, and every day i (with my friends) play with scores like 20/0 and 30/1 (if enemy team have no guys like me or skilled tank, and i meet skilled enemy not so often as i want).
Newbies need as minimum 3kk SP to compete with prototype. Why not let them get it faster? Game will more intense. |
dalt ud
Vacuum Cleaner. LLC
82
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 10:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
Point of view of typical newbie:
Today i did meet immortal guys in prototype gear. I cant kill them at all. Friends talk than i need play 2 month to get this gear.... Hmmm... While i get it - this guy will go farther, and i anyway will not catch up with him.... Damn this game, i will play other games. Bye bye nerds!!
In same time, when this guy understand than he have way to catch up with prototype guys in no so long time - he will play.
Guys who like challenges - like all of us who played dust514 at start - not so many. So not forget about it. |
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