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Joseph Ridgeson
Cactus Rats
25
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Posted - 2013.03.31 19:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
First off, seriously? The Caldari, the people that name their ships after birds/animals (Raven, Eagle, Badger) or mythological beings (Phoenix, Leviathan, Tengu) named their Militia, Standard, and Advanced HAV's after an ancient dagger, viking sword, and a Persian battle axe?
I suspect that Amarr would have theirs named Free Thought or the Minmatar would actually build a completed HAV... 
Gunnlogi:
2,600 Shields (22 recharge per second)
1,000 Armor
330 CPU
1,805 PG
5 High Powered Slots
2 Low Powered Slots.
Madrugar:
900 Shields (9 recharge per seconds)
2,900 Armor
210 CPU
2,690 PG
2 High Powered Slots
5 Low Powered Slots
A powerful shield and a host of High Powered Slots to assist in making the shield stronger. However, the lack of a suitable power plant in the Gunnlogi causes a truly crippling weakness.
LetGÇÖs assume the best Extender/Plates and best Booster/Repairer with just average blasters with 5/5 Circuitry and Combat Engineering:
Gunnlogi
Heavy Clarity Ward Shield Booster: 76 CPU / 608 PG
Heavy Azeotropic Ward Shield Extender: 71 CPU / 646 PG
80 GJ Blasters with 2 20 GJ Blasters: 56 CPU / 1,200 PG
Total: 203 CPU / 2,454 PG out of
412 CPU / 2,256 PG
Madrugar
Heavy Efficient Armor Repair Unit: 25 CPU / 1,064 PG
180MM Reinforced Polycrystalline Plates: 24 CPU / 1,102 PG
80 GJ Blasters with 2 20 GJ Blasters: 56 CPU / 1,200 PG
Total: 105 CPU / 3,366 PG out of
262 CPU / 3,362
This is where the Madrugar pulls out a dirty trick. In order to use the 180MM Reinforced Polycrystalline Plates, a Pilot must at least have Armor Upgrades at level 3. This reduces the PG usage of Plates by 9%. The real numbers become:
Madrugar
Heavy Efficient Armor Repair Unit: 25 CPU / 1,064 PG
180MM Reinforced Polycrystalline Plates: 24 CPU / 1,002 PG
80 GJ Blasters with 2 20 GJ Blasters: 56 CPU / 1,200 PG
Total: 105 CPU / 3,266 PG out of
262 CPU / 3,362
The Gunnlogi does require Shield Enhancement 3 but this reduces the use of CPU, something that the Gunnlogi is swimming in, resulting in an extra 7 CPU.
This means that, unlike the Gunnlogi, the Madrugar actually has 2 free slots to work with when the Gunnlogi either needs a PGU or 2 PDS's.
The biggest problem, however, is the Gunnlogi's lackluster defenses. Level 4 Shield Control and level 5 Field Mechanics (getting Shield Control to 4 is 50% more expensive than getting FM to 5) with the best Enhancer and 2 PDS I's amount to 5,622 Shield / 1,249 Armor.
A Madruggar with level 5 Field Mechanics and 4 Shield Control with the best Plate runs at 1079 Shield / 6,752 Armor.
The nail in the coffin is that Armor Hardeners are infinitely better than Shield Hardeners.
The 'Surge' Shield Reinforcement reduces damage by 30% with a 10 second active time and a 30 second cooldown. It is the best Shield Hardener.
The Carapace Armor Hardener reduces damage by 25% with a 45 second active time and a 15 second cooldown. It is the best Armor Hardener.
I love the Raven. I adore the Drake. When I decided to try out Tanks, I naturally found myself drawn towards the Caldari. I was kind of saddened to discover that the Madruggar is so much more powerful at, well, killing and not dying. Please consider modifying how the Shield Tanks operate. Also, missiles! 
Be well. |
BOZ MR
BurgezzE.T.F
Orion Empire
45
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 23:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Why don't you add how much mobility you have with gunloggi over madrugar?
 Or the Homing Ability of AV nades?
Or the Militia swarms that deals 1K damage to armor even with hardners?
Or the ability of swarms to turn around and follow you when you turn corners?
Or the Gunloggi's resist to both AV nade and Swarms?
Or why do you think maintaining nearly all wheel of active equipment is easy to maintain your madrugar whereas you just need heatsink and Shield Booster on gunloggi?
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Joseph Ridgeson
Cactus Rats
27
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 23:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
I was just looking at flat numbers.
Yes, the Gunnlogi can turn much better than the Madrugar. There is still a problem in the fact that the Gunnlogi is incredibly fragile compared to the Madruggar. I have found it not to be a fair trade in losing so much survivability for maneuverability.
Be well. |
BOZ MR
BurgezzE.T.F
Orion Empire
45
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 23:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:I was just looking at flat numbers.
Yes, the Gunnlogi can turn much better than the Madrugar. There is still a problem in the fact that the Gunnlogi is incredibly fragile compared to the Madruggar. I have found it not to be a fair trade in losing so much survivability for maneuverability.
Be well.
I added more things. |
Joseph Ridgeson
Cactus Rats
27
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 23:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
BOZ MR wrote:Why don't you add how much mobility you have with gunloggi over madrugar? Or the Homing Ability of AV nades? Or the Militia swarms that deals 1K damage to armor even with hardners? Or the ability of swarms to turn around and follow you when you turn corners? Or the Gunloggi's resist to both AV nade and Swarms? Or why do you think maintaining nearly all wheel of active equipment is easy to maintain your madrugar whereas you just need heatsink and Shield Booster on gunloggi?
The homing ability of AV Grenades is just as big of a problem for Gunnlogis as it is for Madruggars. Armor does take more damage from Explosives than Shield Tanks. This is true.
To my knowledge, Swarms do 80 / 120 to Shields / Armor. This doesn't matter too much, from what I have seen, as the Hardeners of Armor generally keep you rolling.
Swarm Launcher's ability to turn at angles that a protractor would be proud of hurts Gunnlogis the same. It doesn't matter too much that they just do more damage to Madrugars.
Yes, the Gunnlogi is naturally more resistant to Explosive Damage (Grenades and Swarm Launchers).
Honestly, I do not think it is difficult keeping the Active Hardeners online. I run with three and I alternate it so that at least 2 are online at any one moment. I am not good player; I think I would qualify as decent on a good day. I just activate the first one, note how much time is left on the battlefield. 15 seconds later, I fire the next. 15 seconds later, I fire the last. I then just fire them on cooldown. It is not difficult in the slightest.
Let's take that strategy and add in the Diminishing Returns in EVE. I am assuming they are the same for DUST:
1st = 1
2nd = 0.8691
3rd = 0.5706
4th = 0.2830
So at any one time, 2 Hardeners are online. This gives 46.7275% resistance and on the times where are three are running, which I believe is for 30 seconds every three cycles, the resistances go up 60.9925%.
Even taking the extra damage from explosive compounds, Armor Tanks take less damage from AV than Shield does. Sure, it does require more micromanagement but you actually get something out of it for keeping tabs on the Hardeners. Shield Tanks don't have that.
The only advantage they have is that they accelerate quickly and turn on a dinner plate rather than a dinner table.
If you take the Shield Tank with 2 Flat Resistances and 1 Hardener, it works out like:
2 Resistances (15% each) = 1% + (15 x .8691) = 28.0365
For 10 seconds, Hardener gives 30%. I believe separate bonuses stack, so 58.0365%
In those regards, the Shield Tank only has more resistances if all three Hardeners are not online.
Disclaimer: Joseph is an idiot when it comes to knowing how DUST and EVE add their bonuses overall. He is also an idiot in most other regards.
Be well. |
Joseph Ridgeson
Cactus Rats
27
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 23:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
And, of course, thank you for your response.
Be well. |
BOZ MR
BurgezzE.T.F
Orion Empire
45
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 23:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
No problem man.
Have fun... |
The dark cloud
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
1191
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 00:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
-Sagaris
-Compressed particlecanon
-3 damage mods
= over 5000HP damage per shot fired
-still maintains good amount of shields while having that
Shield tanks have much better DPS, much better resistance against swarm/av grenades (60% difference compared to a armor tank), better mobility, passive shield regen, better costumisation.
The last point is clearly cause you can play around with the fits cause you could make a damn buffed up tank with over 10.000 shields (yes its possible on a sagaris), have a speed fit which goes allmost as fast like a LAV or just go for alot of DPS. Armor tanks have only 1 option and that is tank and thats it. Have alot of HP with a good armr repair. And i bet nobody tried how good remote shield transporters are compared to remote armor repairs. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
170
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 03:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:The nail in the coffin is that Armor Hardeners are infinitely better than Shield Hardeners.
The 'Surge' Shield Reinforcement reduces damage by 30% with a 10 second active time and a 30 second cooldown. It is the best Shield Hardener.
The Carapace Armor Hardener reduces damage by 25% with a 45 second active time and a 15 second cooldown. It is the best Armor Hardener.
actually, the armor hardener is active for sixty seconds with a fifteen second cooldown.
So armor tanks can have 2 hardeners up most of the time, and always have one active at any given time.
People underestimate how much damage swarms actually do to armor vehicles.
edit: I reread the posts above, and I'm glad that someone else mentioned this! Shield tanks are a tank for ten seconds, and then a high HP and slow LAV with a big gun for the rest of the time.
edit edit: The armor reps are MUCH better than the shield booster. It's usually not even worth using a shield booster. The passive shield regen does happen, but you should regen more HP by activating an armor rep and then waiting for it to cd. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
170
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 03:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:have a speed fit which goes allmost as fast like a LAV
That's not true at all if you're talking about shield tanks. The Sagaris only has three low slots, and the nanofibers don't bring you close to the speed of a LAV.
Madrugar on the other hand, well I got one with 5x nanofibers :)
edit: also, Surya has higher DPS. You're mixing up DPS and alpha. Blasters have higher DPS but lower alpha. Surya gets a bonus from the marauder skill. It's huge. The Sagaris has higher alpha with the railgun, but less possible DPS than the Surya. |
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Harpyja
DUST University
Ivy League
10
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Posted - 2013.04.01 03:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
+1 Shield HAVs need some love! Forge guns are 10X more annoying than swarms! You always see where swarms come from, and the person needs to stand out in the open to get a lock, while forge gun shots are nearly invisible, and they can charge while hiding and pop up for half a second to shoot and go back to hiding. |
Casius Hakoke
Fenrir's Wolves
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 04:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:+1 Shield HAVs need some love! Forge guns are 10X more annoying than swarms! You always see where swarms come from, and the person needs to stand out in the open to get a lock, while forge gun shots are nearly invisible, and they can charge while hiding and pop up for half a second to shoot and go back to hiding.
To be honest, you just described swarm launchers.
Hiding behind a hill or structure, pop out just long enough to get a lock and fire, pop back into hiding. Rinse repeat.
I know this works, I do it a lot. |
Celeblhach
Goggles Inc.
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 04:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
+1
Regardless of whether Forge Guns, Swarm Launchers, AV nades or shooting a tank with bullets is more annoying, I do believe that Shield Tanks are weaker than Armor Tanks. Typically, the bonus to Shields are that they recharge faster and require no extra modules to recharge. However, on a tank, the module difference is negligible because every decent tank is going to have a repairer or shield booster, and armor repairers on vehicles actually work faster than a shield booster. Compiled on top of that is the junk power generator on the shield tanks (why does a high-power specialized tank have the weaker powergrid?) and most Gunnlogis will end up with 5-7k Shields (and 1-2k armor), while Madraugars can end up with 10k armor (and 1-2k shields) relatively easily. Of course, Shield tanks do have slightly higher mobility, but is it enough to actually dodge the Anti-Armor fire coming their way? It certainly doesn't feel like it, but since I'm not personally a tanker, I wouldn't know. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 10:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
The resistance differences between shields and armour are huge when the majority of AV is far more effective against armour, and the best anti-shield tank AV weapon only achieves standard efficiency. |
BulletSnitcheZ
TRUE TEA BAGGERS
19
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 12:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:The resistance differences between shields and armour are huge when the majority of AV is far more effective against armour, and the best anti-shield tank AV weapon only achieves standard efficiency.
You're wrong and here's why:
1. Armor tanks can use a lot more/ much better resistance modules than a shield tank.
2. Armor Tanks can have double or triple the amount of eHP than a shield tank.
3. Armor Repairers are much more effective than shield repairers
4. Armor Tanks can easily survive Orbital Strikes
This more than makes up for the extra damage explosive damage done to armor tanks. Believe me, a shield tank will die just as quickly, if not FASTER than armor tank when getting hit with a volley of swarm launchers.
This is simply because of the insanely poor shield regeneration / resistance modules that shield tanks have. Passive shield Regeneration on shield tanks are a JOKE.
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mikegunnz
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
473
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 13:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
The thing ppl are forgetting (when mentioning all the av disadvantages that armor tanks have) is that shield tanks are also susceptible to flux nades. Thats an av tool that the armor tanks DONT have to worry about. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
344
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 15:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
mikegunnz wrote:The thing ppl are forgetting (when mentioning all the av disadvantages that armor tanks have) is that shield tanks are also susceptible to flux nades. Thats an av tool that the armor tanks DONT have to worry about.
Fluxes are actually pretty rubbish against shield tanks - 1000hp if you manage to get it to actually hit instead of a tiny terrain bump doesn't shield the entire tank. I've been trying fluxes all build and am ready to go back to using packed AV nades again now. |
mikegunnz
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
473
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 15:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
Not that Flux alone will destroy a tank, but it's one more thing to worry about.
I've actually destroyed a few gunloggis by teaming up with a squad mate. One of us carrying flux, the other just basic AV nades. Tossing a few flux will drop their shields down to 50% or more. Just enough so that the AV nades can finish the job. (since 3 basic AV nades aren't enough to do the job alone, and a good tanker can get away fast enough in a shield tank before you can replenish using a nanohive) |
Celeblhach
Goggles Inc.
16
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 15:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
I completely forgot about flux nades for taking out shield tanks. Still, I think a boost to the powergrid would fix most issues. Maybe 25% or so? |
Sev Alcatraz
The Tritan Industries
203
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 15:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
The sagaris is a missile boat, not a rail gun boat. The marauder skill affects missiles on the sagaris. The missiles are broken unless your trying to make the enemy laugh to death. |
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Joseph Ridgeson
Cactus Rats
32
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Posted - 2013.04.03 21:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
Also, Armor Tanks don't lose half their life when they bump into something larger than a pebble. I swear I have lost more Gunnlogis to LAV's than Swarm Launchers.
Be well. |
knight of 6
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
107
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 22:41:00 -
[22] - Quote
though i think shield tanks could use some love, it would only be a little love.
they're:
1.) faster
2.) higher DAM
3.) passively heal
4.) boosters take 0 time to warm up (seems petty until your in an armor tank)
i don't care what you heard NO armor tank "easily" survives an OB it pushes the armor to it's max. shield tanks can usually can out run OBs though again it isn't easy.
IGÇÖd say a small pg boost is in order but nothing too extreme and nerf the bump damage. |
Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
475
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 22:50:00 -
[23] - Quote
speed is a huge advantage to shield tanks
considering even a sica can avoid bombardments while a armor tank is forced to eat it for breakfast and hope there isn't a stack of guys aiming at his slow butt.
oh and also the shield takes will always do more damage thanks to the free low slots no matter what weapon they use.
you have a stack of enough shield to eat proto shots you can get away before the third shot is even fired, this makes shield tanks require teams to take them down. while an armor tank can be taken out by a simple LAV with a bunch of AV grenades, they can't get out fast enough till that third genade hits them. |
Joseph Ridgeson
Cactus Rats
32
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 23:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
knight of 6 wrote:though i think shield tanks could use some love, it would only be a little love.
they're:
1.) faster
2.) higher DAM
3.) passively heal
4.) boosters take 0 time to warm up (seems petty until your in an armor tank)
i don't care what you heard NO armor tank "easily" survives an OB it pushes the armor to it's max. shield tanks can usually can out run OBs though again it isn't easy.
IGÇÖd say a small pg boost is in order but nothing too extreme and nerf the bump damage.
They aren't really faster, not passively at least. They accelerate faster and their Extenders don't slow them down slightly. They are capable of putting in Turbines and Nanofibers in MUCH easier though.
I am not completely sold on higher damage. Sure they can fire damage modules without screwing over their EHP as much but the Marauder skill could help tip the balance here. Of course, it is not Shield Tanks fault that Missiles are currently weak. Even then, an Armor Tank could rip out a Hardener or two to throw in flat enhancements.
The Passive Heal is pretty lackluster. With maxed Shield Boost Systems, it amounts to 25.3 Health Per Second. A Heavy Clarity Ward Shield Booster gives 328 a pulse for 5 seconds, totaling 27.3 HPS overall. The Heavy Efficient Armor Repair Unit does 414 every pulse for 15 seconds (I think), totaling 69 HPS overall. If you were willing to run both side by side forever, the Shield Tanks wins by 8.63. Not super amazing.
The Booster thing doesn't really bother me. I think it is totally fair to have less NOW versus a little bit more later.
From my experience, Orbitals are deadly but are far, far easier to survive in a Madruggar versus a Gunnlogi.
Be well. |
Farsund Solheim
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 06:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
All the evidence i have that the shield tanks need a buff is anecdotal, but i think it is true none-the-less. I have an AV specialist Alt, Maximus Epicus, that i run using a CBR7 Swarm Launcher, a Complex Light Damage Modifier, Packed AV nades, on a "Thale" Militia scout, as well as the same load-out plus f/49 Prox. explosives, f/45 Remote Explosives, and basic remote explosives on a Logistics Type-I. This past weekend (sunday-tuesday, my "weekend"), i went up against 2 Sagaris', a Surya, numerous militia and standard tanks, and more LAV's than i can remember. I managed to SOLO kill both Sagaris', one with my scout suit, one with my Logi, and take the Surya down to half health before before it both fled and i ran out of ammo. In another battle, as Farsund, i witnessed another Sagaris taken down by a single person with AV nades and a swarm launcher. The "evidence" in these instances alone shows me that shield tanks, which are supposed to be resistant to explosive damage, are completely lacking in survive-ability, and need a buff. Not matter how much jumping around like a monkey i do, blasting away in 30k-60k of mid range gear, i should not be able to take down a 2million dollar, advanced level tank. Now, none of this takes into account of the skill of the driver, or the team he/she was in. Quite frankly, i'm **** in dropsuit skirmish's, and had they hopped out of their tank and blasted me in the face with a GEK, or just ran for the hills instead of trying to run over/blast a small, fast target, they would probably have saved themselves the emberassment of being solo'd by me. |
Farsund Solheim
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
4
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Posted - 2013.04.04 06:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
I can also attest to the fact that this character, Farsund, is a shield tank user, and even though i have over 1.2 million SP in engineering, and have access to all the best shield mods money can buy, my Gunnlogi's survive-ability is less than stellar. I have recently switched over to armor tanking, and even though i only have access to basic armor plating and repairers, and no armor hardeners (150k SP total in mechanics), the Madrugar's survive-ability is about on par to that of my fully decked out Gunnlogi, albeit being a much slower ride. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2372
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 09:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
Casius Hakoke wrote:Harpyja wrote:+1 Shield HAVs need some love! Forge guns are 10X more annoying than swarms! You always see where swarms come from, and the person needs to stand out in the open to get a lock, while forge gun shots are nearly invisible, and they can charge while hiding and pop up for half a second to shoot and go back to hiding. To be honest, you just described swarm launchers. Hiding behind a hill or structure, pop out just long enough to get a lock and fire, pop back into hiding. Rinse repeat. I know this works, I do it a lot. Edit: Not saying forge guns aren't annoying for armor tanks though. If I'm not mistaken, they do equal damage to both armor and shields.
Actually, you have to step out to lock with Swarms, you can step out already charged and ready to fire INSTANTLY with a Forge Gun.
One involves a delay after stepping into the open, the other doesn't.
Swarms have a nice highly-visible trail that persists and can be followed back to the source if you're not careful. Forge Guns have directional damage indicators and a faint tracer visible as they're being fired, and nothing persistent enough to be useful until you've already taken a couple of hits. |
WyrmHero1945
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
87
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 12:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
Sagaris should have railgun damage from the marauder skill instead of the missiles. The railgun is a true tank weapon. |
BulletSnitcheZ
TRUE TEA BAGGERS
19
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 12:01:00 -
[29] - Quote
knight of 6 wrote:though i think shield tanks could use some love, it would only be a little love.
they're:
1.) faster
2.) higher DAM
3.) passively heal
4.) boosters take 0 time to warm up (seems petty until your in an armor tank)
i don't care what you heard NO armor tank "easily" survives an OB it pushes the armor to it's max. shield tanks can usually can out run OBs though again it isn't easy.
IGÇÖd say a small pg boost is in order but nothing too extreme and nerf the bump damage.
Umm Shield Repairers DO take some time to warm up, about 1 - 2 seconds which is the about the same as an armor tank. And yes, if you know how to build an Armor tank properly, you can survive orbital strikes quite easily.
My squad always has trouble killing decent armor tankers with an orbital strike, and they can actually fully repair their HP in 4 - 5 seconds after a direct hit. One armor tanker that i know actually drives INTO the orbital strikes. Talk to "Driver Archedword", he might give you some advice |
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