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Parson Atreides Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 186	Posted - 2013.03.25 06:24:00 - [1] - Quote I hope matchmaking makes it near the top of the list in terms of priority development for the next build, because it seems like it's only getting worse. Just the other day, a few corp members and i jumped into a skirmish match that ended with a 146-36 clone count. Yes, our side lost 4 clones in an entire skirmish match and killed 114. Before you try to come up with possible reasons why this is, let me say: 1. The game started with 14-16 players per side, meaning we didn't just cap all the letters before anyone arrived and then spawn camp. 2. You can tell by the number of clones our team killed that they were trying to push out, yet by the amount of shields we have left that they never held more than one letter, and even then it was only for a few minutes. 3. This wasn't a case of like 8 players on the other side being away from the controller. You can't see in the below screenshot, but the remaining 5 players on the scoreboard all had several deaths as well. 4. No, they weren't just committing suicide all game. 5. We only really had our corp as a premade in there, so it isn't as if we had four full premades of top corps and just noob farmed. We all come across red-line games, both for and against, and know the matchmaking system needs work, but this is ridiculous. If I was new and this was one of my first matches, I'd probably never play again (and I don't just mean if I was on the losing end)--it wasn't fun for either side. I actually felt bad for these guys because they were trying to push and just couldn't do anything because we all clearly had way better gear, way more skill, or both. Scoreboard Right before Victory screen
Jungian Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 12	Posted - 2013.03.25 07:19:00 - [2] - Quote If there is anything that needs a quick fix...its the horrific match-making system. I simply could not believe it was THAT bad.
Purple Creeper Onslaught Inc 13	Posted - 2013.03.25 07:36:00 - [3] - Quote Never been a fan of random instanced battles even though I enjoy playing FPS games. I'm all for taking away redlines and turning this game into a sandbox like EVE, traveling and exploring the whole planet. The SP system would need to be changed for that to happen and that wreaks of character reset.. Oh well keep dreamin.
DJINN Marauder Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 384	Posted - 2013.03.25 07:47:00 - [4] - Quote Lol. Hellstorm has been q syncing the past 2 nights on ambush. However we're always on opposite ends and we're just hunting for each other all game. But tonight one match in particular we ended up on the same team and just recked the enemy team... I think it was 76-0 Wasn't fun :( Cant believe matchmaking did that..
Sigberct Amni ZionTCD Legacy Rising 28	Posted - 2013.03.25 08:04:00 - [5] - Quote I'll +1 this and add some points that probably keep matchmaking below priority #1. CCP is well aware of what sells EVE, and it would be foolish to think they aren't applying the same formula to dust. Those things being metagame, metagame and metagame. Matchmaking doesn't exist in corp battles, thus it's not high on the list. For proof, see all the energy they have already put into planetary conquest. The biggest problem a bad matchmaking system creates is a turn off of new players. If I didn't know anything about dust, downloaded it for free and started playing... it would be about 3 matches before I uninstalled and told all my bros how ** the game is due to crazy imbalanced matchmaking. That said, I'm certain CCP is banking on how epic the PC system will be when coupled with full interaction with EVE. Who can tell for sure? I do know that there are enough people who trust CCP to keep dust open no matter what. With a solid enough fanbase like that, all CCP has to do is keep churning out fixes and changes that aren't complete **. TL;DR, matchmaking effects newbs badly, but there are enough vets keeping this game on radar to make dust profitable in the long term. Thus, matchmaking is on backburner.
Parson Atreides Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 189	Posted - 2013.03.25 11:20:00 - [6] - Quote Sigberct Amni wrote: I'll +1 this and add some points that probably keep matchmaking below priority #1. TL;DR, matchmaking effects newbs badly, but there are enough vets keeping this game on radar to make dust profitable in the long term. Thus, matchmaking is on backburner. It doesn't need to be priority number one, but it does need to be higher than they seem to be treating it now. The vast majority of players and games played now (and games that will be played after PC and FW are introduced) are at the mercy of this matchmaking system. In EVE there is plenty to do without ever having to fight another player, unlike Dust where PvP is the only mode, not to mention they get monthly subscription fees--with free-to-play games, the business model is different. You assume W number of players will try the game, X number will continue to play, of which Y percentage will spend Z amount. Because CCP is a business, it's important to them to get X as high as possible because even if Y just stays the same, they're still making more money (which is why f2p works at all). That means making the game enjoyable for all players, not just the one interested in meta-game.
Yagihige Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 199	Posted - 2013.03.25 11:37:00 - [7] - Quote What Dust needs (urgently) is a tiered level for battles so that you can only use militia level equipment on beginner level battles while not letting anyone unable to join any battle. It would balance things a bit if you knew that in the battle you just joined you wouldn't be having the ridiculous advantage of bringing Gunnlogis or Suryas, Duvolles or your proto suits with over 400 shields against poorly equipped enemies.
BlG MAMA PLAYSTATION4 21	Posted - 2013.03.25 11:43:00 - [8] - Quote Like i said , matchmaking should be based on our K/D ratio
The Black Art Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 23	Posted - 2013.03.25 11:47:00 - [9] - Quote BlG MAMA wrote: Like i said , matchmaking should be based on our K/D ratio Then you'll have games full of tankers and snipers, with a few heavies.
Yagihige Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 199	Posted - 2013.03.25 11:55:00 - [10] - Quote If it were to be done purely with matchmaking, it should be based on fittings. The game would need to assess the meta level of your fittings and act accordingly. But that, imo, wouldn't be too effective. For it to be effective, we'd need actual levels. Either you'd willingly join them on your own will or you would deploy to find yourself in a level 1 battle because the majority of the players matchmaked into that battle only have militia fittings. So, that way your uber squad would have to reserve the proto stuff and go with a better adjusted fitting for that battle.

ladwar Dead Six Initiative Daringly Inserting Large Dangerous Objects 40	Posted - 2013.03.25 12:02:00 - [11] - Quote The Black Art wrote: BlG MAMA wrote: Like i said , matchmaking should be based on our K/D ratio Then you'll have games full of tankers and snipers, with a few heavies. sooo sooo super true plus a rare few proto awesome assault guys and then k/d will balance out and you'll be in the same spot as before mostly.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2576	Posted - 2013.03.25 12:09:00 - [12] - Quote the game will have automatic matchmaking once FW and PC comes into play corps and large grps will play those 2 alot more than Instant Battles
Parson Atreides Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 190	Posted - 2013.03.25 12:47:00 - [13] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: the game will have automatic matchmaking once FW and PC comes into play corps and large grps will play those 2 alot more than Instant Battles I'm not sure exactly how FW will work, but PC has is pretty limited in how often you can play considering there's both a 24 hour minimum timer to attack and defend, and there's a limited resource (clones) that is expended every battle. Even if FW ends up being pretty popular, there's still going to be a large portion of the community who doesn't bother with either. Now this will probably sort itself out a little bit because better corps will be involved in FW and PC meaning they're less likely to pubstomp, but it's still going to be a problem if healthy amounts of new players are coming in and starting several million SP behind players still doing instant battles.
Coleman Gray RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 117	Posted - 2013.03.25 12:53:00 - [14] - Quote Yagihige wrote: If it were to be done purely with matchmaking, it should be based on fittings. The game would need to assess the meta level of your fittings and act accordingly. But that, imo, wouldn't be too effective. For it to be effective, we'd need actual levels. Either you'd willingly join them on your own will or you would deploy to find yourself in a level 1 battle because the majority of the players matchmaked into that battle only have militia fittings. So, that way your uber squad would have to reserve the proto stuff and go with a better adjusted fitting for that battle. They just need to split the games up in tier based games, Militia-standard, standard-advance, advance-proto and just Proto for the "end game" players.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 338	Posted - 2013.03.25 13:02:00 - [15] - Quote Parson I know your not looking to show the losing side but were there many people with no results? Or just 1-2 deaths? I ask because I had to stop playing skirmish after so many games where we have amazing pushes against a decent foe, or break through a red line, or have a very strong early position and it just crumbles, and I look at the map while spawning and see... nobody. Like 6-8 players. And I think maybe they are respawning like me... and I wait and see. But the number doesn't seem to go up. We will have 14-16 people but I don't see them and many players end up with almost no kills or deaths. Usually I see this happen when we try and move from 1 Objective to 2 and we end up faltering. Often the blueberries want to "branch out" which means even if I have my squad hold we keep losing numbers and we are more waiting for a good play from the other side to push us out and we resort to guerilla warfare where we just keep capping abandoned objs while the enemy zerg tries to get what points they can. Granted I could be crazy and maybe the map always looks like that on a bad game, but too often I know we are pretty much all centered in a location and I just wonder "where is everyone". Probably some snipers that I am not looking at but that is when I see the worst beatings in Skirmish these days aside from a way solid team formup on the other side.
Parson Atreides Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 190	Posted - 2013.03.25 13:30:00 - [16] - Quote Rynx Sinfar wrote: Parson I know your not looking to show the losing side but were there many people with no results? Or just 1-2 deaths? I checked at the end of the game to make sure it wasn't just a lack of players who were actually fighting, and it wasn't. The remaining 5 you can't see all had multiple deaths, which tells me they weren't just AKF farming. The two you can see who have 0 deaths in that screenshot probably joined late because some other people left. Quote: I ask because I had to stop playing skirmish after so many games where we have amazing pushes against a decent foe, or break through a red line, or have a very strong early position and it just crumbles, and I look at the map while spawning and see... nobody. Like 6-8 players. And I think maybe they are respawning like me... and I wait and see. But the number doesn't seem to go up. We will have 14-16 people but I don't see them and many players end up with almost no kills or deaths. Usually I see this happen when we try and move from 1 Objective to 2 and we end up faltering. Often the blueberries want to "branch out" which means even if I have my squad hold we keep losing numbers and we are more waiting for a good play from the other side to push us out and we resort to guerilla warfare where we just keep capping abandoned objs while the enemy zerg tries to get what points they can. Granted I could be crazy and maybe the map always looks like that on a bad game, but too often I know we are pretty much all centered in a location and I just wonder "where is everyone". Probably some snipers that I am not looking at but that is when I see the worst beatings in Skirmish these days aside from a way solid team formup on the other side. We all have those games where blue dots are no where to be found, and even when you do catch the rare glimpse, they seem to be doing nothing, but this match was particularly bad simply because these guys were actually trying to fight and still only managed to kill four clones. Most players just give up once they get red-lined and try to snipe--and there were several this game, but they still had plenty of people trying to push us back to a letter, yet met with absolutely no success because the sides were so incredibly uneven.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 338	Posted - 2013.03.25 13:38:00 - [17] - Quote Fair enough, even in games where we were at half strength people still died. Wow actually just looked at the scoreboard (thought you had taken the entire enemy side off, thanks for being smarter than that). They weren't even putting people down who got revived. That is a pretty nuts scoreboard. Yeah I got nothing. That's.. yeah idk.
MarakPS3 Daga The Trustfund 0	Posted - 2013.03.25 13:46:00 - [18] - Quote i know im fairly new to this game ( not eve online though.). while i agree with a lot of what you guys are saying, im hesitant to agree overall. example, a tiered system would remove the primary reason for skilling into a new suit( except for corp matches). btw im using a militia suit most of the time, so im not trying to protect my proto here lol it does suck to be roflstomped though, ive been on both sides of that, and while i dont have a solution id be damn hesitant before trying anything lest we trash the entire match system.
Sigberct Amni ZionTCD Legacy Rising 28	Posted - 2013.03.26 01:43:00 - [19] - Quote Another problem lies in the fact that you can't effectively match make against skill. You can setup a system based on K/D, WP/D, gear meta, whether or not mics are being used, squads or not, etc etc... In the end, how hard would it be to simply roll a new alt and use that to farm isk in the lowest tiers. Lower the amount of isk received in the lowest tiers you say? So newbs will be even further behind. Eh. I've yet to see an effective FPS matchmaking system that isn't min/maxable. I do understand the need for an improved matchmaker, but I also see why CCP is not putting full steam into it.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 267	Posted - 2013.03.26 01:53:00 - [20] - Quote I think a really decent system, yet to be implemented, is average WP per game, so that each side has roughly equal amounts of WP. But, then again, come release, I can't see it being of any relevance. Most people will go into faction warfare or full-blown corps, and only the newberries would fight in instant battles. Well. Newberries and those who are bored. I'm really looking forward to FW, and I don't think I'd play instant battles once they come out.

Konohamaru Sarutobi Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 100	Posted - 2013.03.26 02:30:00 - [21] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: the game will have automatic matchmaking once FW and PC comes into play corps and large grps will play those 2 alot more than Instant Battles Since closed beta CCP says "the matchmaking will works with more players". Well I see a lot of players but 0 matchmaking. Stop with "Soon" excuses, stop with "it's a beta", because the game will be always "a beta"
Deadeyes Anterie Ill Omens 315	Posted - 2013.03.26 04:54:00 - [22] - Quote SP is the only logical basis for matchmaking. Gear related matchmaking is a total joke and a horrible idea. I want my 200k protofit to ensure I play against 16 other people using equal gear. That way I can lose 1-2 million isk a match. It would just end up in everyone realizing gear doesn't provide any advantage anymore and everyone running militia.
DJINN Marauder Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 388	Posted - 2013.03.26 05:16:00 - [23] - Quote Deadeyes Anterie wrote: SP is the only logical basis for matchmaking. Gear related matchmaking is a total joke and a horrible idea. I don't want my 200k protofit to ensure I play against 16 other people using equal gear. That way I can lose 1-2 million isk a match. It would just end up in everyone realizing gear doesn't provide any advantage anymore and everyone running militia. Lol. The payout for the match will be CRAZY though. Probably somewhere from 5-700k. Don't die 3 times and you'll be fine
Parson Atreides Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 193	Posted - 2013.03.26 11:53:00 - [24] - Quote Sigberct Amni wrote: Another problem lies in the fact that you can't effectively match make against skill. You can setup a system based on K/D, WP/D, gear meta, whether or not mics are being used, squads or not, etc etc... You may not be able to pinpoint a person's skill on a scale from 1-100, but the stats we have, and those some people have suggested, should be a roughly accurate reflection of how good a player is or how far they've progressed. KDR, WP/D, total WP, total kills, total SP, etc might be some (though not all) of the criteria for creating a better system. Quote: In the end, how hard would it be to simply roll a new alt and use that to farm isk in the lowest tiers. Lower the amount of isk received in the lowest tiers you say? So newbs will be even further behind. Eh. I've yet to see an effective FPS matchmaking system that isn't min/maxable. A new alt will be on a much more level playing field because they'll be using low level gear, which is its own sort of evening-out. In fact, they'll probably be at a disadvantage in the beginning because everyone will have more SP and better gear. At the very least, it shouldn't put three corp premade squads on one side and none or only one on the other, which I've seen many times. The new system doesn't need to be perfect, but clearly it needs to be better than what we have now.
xaerael Kabiel Immobile Infantry 4	Posted - 2013.03.26 12:15:00 - [25] - Quote A simple quick fix would be to pool all squads/soloers together at the start of a match, then filter them one squad a time into each team, then filter the soloers to fill the last slots. I was in the 76/0 match mentioned earlier on the losing side, and it was dumb. From what I could work out the reds had multiple full squads of mid to high sp, and I seemed to be the only person on the blues to have more than a week's experience. It really is that bad right now at times. Tanks are an issue, to be fair (and I'm not a whiner on this issue, I run tanks) I think to a great degree that ambush maps are a tad too small, and could benefit from expansion, so you can get a little breathing room from the enemy, especially on the bloodbath that is manus peak. The only thing I can say really is if you're stuck in that sort of match, just run cheapfits/freefits and collect the isk at the end. You might get lucky and pop a guy on an expensive fit or a tank, which at least made them pay a chunk of their reward to win.
Toolshed Mclean PSU GHOST SYNDICATE 0	Posted - 2013.03.28 19:24:00 - [26] - Quote xaerael Kabiel wrote: A simple quick fix would be to pool all squads/soloers together at the start of a match, then filter them one squad a time into each team, then filter the soloers to fill the last slots. i like this. though it will render the waiting room completely useless, i must say however, the room in its current state is in actual fact "USELESS" so no loss there. it seems the only thing being beta tested atm in my patience. im tired of being red lined, and im tired of having the other team red lined. matches are boring, and im losing interest a hotfix would be nice. the next build is too far away.
BursegSardaukar Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 68	Posted - 2013.03.28 19:30:00 - [27] - Quote Good to see my SMERG guy getting them WP's despite the onslaught from the opposition!
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 133	Posted - 2013.03.28 19:42:00 - [28] - Quote I think in the end a matchmaking system will make a lot of ppl unhappy. If you use SP amount for matching then you would eliminate the advantage of having higher SP since you would only be pitted against ppl in your own SP bracket. If you did KDR matching then again, ppl who used to invest into protogear will be penalized because they can't pub stomp anymore since they are pitted against other proto killers. Even though, this seems like a fair situation, this set up completely discourages ppl from progressing in the game. One more fair system would be to assign players running in premade squads into games with other squades. Because at presents this is the worst unbalancing factors - organized squads in proto suits beating up on random millia suits in pub games
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 133	Posted - 2013.03.28 19:55:00 - [29] - Quote I think the problem with the matching right now is that the risk to running a proto suit in a pub game is minimal. The risk of pubstomping is minimal relative to rewards. I think if we had a tiered system of maps with more railgun installations at each end of the map where a militia suit could man a turret and present a real threat to a proto suit, the situation would be more normailized - redlining would be more difficult. Next, scale the rewards appropriately. Some maps should have low pay out (while still having considerable risk - i. e. multiople defensive installations at the redline), so it simply makes no sense to risk expensive suits on those maps, while others pay out 500k +, so you know you would have to bring your best to compete on those.
Katariss Katalyst Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 0	Posted - 2013.03.30 21:13:00 - [30] - Quote I think if maps had a lot of Installations for noobs to use, they would get killed (by me, because when i see installations i get my Forge gun out), When i play on instant skirmishes and Ambushes, i will use crap suits and keep good ones in reserve. (I will use at max 5 good suites a game), Its not entirely the suit that makes the player, I use militia ("crap") suits against proto ppl and i still end up in 1st or 2nd... I agree with the fact that some maps should have more payout, because the fact is, right now we have skirmishes and Ambushes that put out the same amount of ISK (ambush is like 10 min, most ppl use crap; while skirmish is like 40min and ppl use good suits) I think that you should get 500+ on skirmish and like 250+ on ambush. Just some thought though, thanks :)

Moejoe Omnipotent Imperfects Negative-Feedback 340	Posted - 2013.03.30 21:14:00 - [31] - Quote Nerfing shield mods and damage mods would instantly solve a lot of the pubstoming issues.
Parson Atreides Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 197	Posted - 2013.03.30 22:03:00 - [32] - Quote Moejoe Omnipotent wrote: Nerfing shield mods and damage mods would instantly solve a lot of the pubstoming issues. I'd hesitate to promote any solution that involves simply nerfing stuff. For one, the nerfs are still going to have an effect on the team getting red-lined. It may have a more pronounced effect on the side with the better gear, but the nerf isn't exclusive to them. The other problem is, it still doesn't address the underlying issue, which is that some teams can be stacked with 3 full premades while the other team has only one or none. Or one side seems to simply dominate a match without any successful mounted retaliation by the losing team. I actually played a game on an alt earlier that had 3 full premades from pretty well-known corps on each side. Neither side held all three points at any time during the game, and objectives were switching hands for most of the match. It was a lot of fun because we had all the corps in team chat working together, and it wasn't just a case of insta-red lining an enemy with no chance.
Thor McStrut Terminal Pharmaceuticals Inc. 1	Posted - 2013.03.30 22:27:00 - [33] - Quote This is clearly going to be the most difficult balancing act of bringing the standard Eve sandbox into a FPS style universe. When you have hard work and isk on the line, most want to have a relative advantage over those who don't, and I think justifiably so. Throw in peoples actual skill in to the mix, where they are just better than you and have better equipment, and why shouldn't they win most engagements? I think the only real answer here is to give the higher skilled, better equipped, and better coordinated players something that is more worthwhile and lucrative for their equivalent time. FW and PC have to deliver that, otherwise most will continue to hang and dominate in the instant battles. Before a matchmaking component gets added, I'd like to see better spawn mechanics. Stop default spawning me on top of one of my teammates who is either getting faceraped by 4-5 heavies or next to a squad running with a HAV.


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