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Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1254	Posted - 2013.03.24 15:56:00 - [1] - Quote The sad truth is there is technical restrictions that have prompted the slower gameplay in DUST. In other words, asking for better hit detection and higher strafe speed together is asking for a technological breakthrough, which is beyond what we should reasonably expect. So I pose the question of how could this game improve while staying slow paced? My answer - large, complex maps with layered objectives. What's yours?
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1257	Posted - 2013.03.24 16:02:00 - [2] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: And why would we need fast paced gameplay? Can't we have a slow shooter from once in a while? Seriously are you guys that impatient that you have to kill someone every 0.4 seconds? In a tracking shooter slow speed flattens the skill gap. Skill is not the same as tactics, but honestly I'm having trouble how to improve rewarding skill in a slow paced high health game.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1257	Posted - 2013.03.24 16:02:00 - [3] - Quote Laheon wrote: Noc, that's going to happen, wait for PC and FW. We have those things and yet the maps keep getting smaller...
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1259	Posted - 2013.03.24 16:13:00 - [4] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: The sad truth is there is technical restrictions that have prompted the slower gameplay in DUST. In other words, asking for better hit detection and higher strafe speed together is asking for a technological breakthrough, which is beyond what we should reasonably expect. So I pose the question of how could this game improve while staying slow paced? My answer - large, complex maps with layered objectives. What's yours? Noc why do you have to extrapolate what the developers didn't say into something you think they said? The statement was approximately "the speed picked was deliberate as a consequence of the single shard server". It's not impossible to get around those decisions but since it is clearly difficult and may require scaling back other desired features, my sole goal of this thread is to discuss how to reward player skill without increasing the speed. Improving rewards for skill shots may work but then you have too much alpha with snipers. It's an open polling for ideas.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1259	Posted - 2013.03.24 16:14:00 - [5] - Quote Laheon wrote: Really? We have planetary conquest? And faction warfare?! Where are these things?! You really don't keep up to date with the updates, do you. What we have now is just playing on the same maps. There is no planetary conquest. There is no faction warfare. It's all coming with release. Both already exist as the corp battle mechanic. The logistics are slightly changing, as well as potentially the UI, but the battle functionality is in game and underwhelming.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1259	Posted - 2013.03.24 16:17:00 - [6] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I just want to say, as far as "slow" gameplay goes, I don't get that feeling because I play a shotgun scout about 40% of the time. It's plenty quick for me, personally. I'd rather have more ways to traverse terrain, like vaulting over obstacles and sliding (like they showed in that old video, if you recall) Excellent idea. Replace the ability to do more movement in a given time with more mobility options, functionally giving you the same difficulty of predicting a target. Page one and already have an excellent suggestion! Keep them coming and I will consolidate in the feedback section.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1259	Posted - 2013.03.24 16:23:00 - [7] - Quote Laheon wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Both already exist as the corp battle mechanic. The logistics are slightly changing, as well as potentially the UI, but the battle functionality is in game and underwhelming. Nope. Sorry, you're wrong in this case. http://dust514.wikia.com/wiki/Districts There's another video floating around somewhere of devs showing off how they want to do districts. Don't have the link. Looks very exciting. But that is, in essence, what faction warfare and planetary conquest is about. Whatever you've thought of, don't worry, CCP has already thought of it. There is a serious gap in CCP, between vision and implementation. The devil is in the details. Furthermore, if anything your link proves we already do have FW... So now I'm not only supporting my position but confused what you are trying to say.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1259	Posted - 2013.03.24 16:34:00 - [8] - Quote Laheon wrote: You're trying to say that we already have faction warfare and planetary conquest. Are we able to fight in nullsec or lowsec for sov? No. There's no planetary conquest. You cannot "conquer" a "planet". Which is kind of implied by the name of "planetary conquest". Again, faction warfare. The kind where you pick a side and fight for it, e.g. Caldari, Gallente, Amarr, Minmatar. Currently we are unable to pick sides. Currently we are unable to fight over the planets in the systems which are dedicated, in EVE, to faction warfare. We are unable to fight for a faction, and hence, there is no faction warfare. Get it? Edit: Oops, typo. Now you are just showing your ignorance. Faction warfare is very much in the game, it's just a complete dodgefest to find anyone to fight. You can pick the system, planet, and district to conquer. And you pick which side. However the system requires consensual pvp, which is downright lame. So they are taking that exact mechanic, slapping a logistics "daily timer" on it, and calling it PC. FW is getting a UI change to probably be more like the merc battles where they are constantly running. Still, nothing new besides the passive vendor trash for owning a district. None of that has any bearing on how the game actually plays though...
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1259	Posted - 2013.03.24 16:44:00 - [9] - Quote Laheon wrote: In that case, pardon my ignorance. CCP has plans for both PC and FW, and they've been quoted as saying there will be districts 200km long, or it was possibly 200km^2. Either way, they'll be quite big. As such, you can consider FW as being not fully implemented yet, as the full district system hasn't been put in yet. I'm here for that too. But I've finally realized I can't judge the game on what it could be someday...
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1259	Posted - 2013.03.24 16:50:00 - [10] - Quote Laheon wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: I'm here for that too. But I've finally realized I can't judge the game on what it could be someday... True. But there's always the option of going away and coming back in a year, and in the meantime, playing BF3 or CoD or MoH or anything in the meantime. Or just leaving and not looking back. The choice is entirely yours. I, for one, having played EVE on and off for years, now, can see how awesome CCP is, and how much they've improved EVE over the last few years. I have faith they can do the same, and the least I can do is stick with them and show my belief in them the only way I can, by supporting DUST 514. cough Incarna cough

Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1259	Posted - 2013.03.24 16:55:00 - [11] - Quote Laheon wrote: Eh. I was never too fussed about walking around in stations. Not to mention I was incredibly impressed with the new character design system. Suitably so... It's much more impressive than most dedicated AAA games out there. Point being there is a gulf between what is promised and what is delivered. DUST very much feels like Incarna and it is a long way from being objectively good once you remove the hype and marketing.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1259	Posted - 2013.03.24 16:57:00 - [12] - Quote IRuby Heart wrote: Yeah right, there are no technical limitations to fixing hit detection. CCP just doesn't know how. And since ssteafe speeds are most likely a simple modifiable parameter, I doubt that applies to any technical limitations either. The speed of light is a pretty real limitation when you have an AUS player facing against a UK for example.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1261	Posted - 2013.03.24 17:16:00 - [13] - Quote Laheon wrote: True to your first point, but then again, playing the oft-played card, this game has yet to be released. They're still testing it. And despite all of this, I do enjoy DUST. Very much so. I enjoy running from A to B, shooting everyone I come across, then dying trying to hack A. Or raging at the rest of my teammates because they're not doing anything, or are just plain awful. I really, really do. It is released. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1264	Posted - 2013.03.24 19:11:00 - [14] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Laheon wrote: True to your first point, but then again, playing the oft-played card, this game has yet to be released. They're still testing it. And despite all of this, I do enjoy DUST. Very much so. I enjoy running from A to B, shooting everyone I come across, then dying trying to hack A. Or raging at the rest of my teammates because they're not doing anything, or are just plain awful. I really, really do. It is released. Sorry to burst your bubble. And this is why testers cannot take you seriously. Also this is the agenda behind every word you speak, you have been poisoned. Actually it was just a tangent to the main idea. So far the best response is more movement options. Possible ideas: Combat Rolls Dives Slides Climbing Blindfire Bullrush Looking for more good suggestions.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1264	Posted - 2013.03.24 19:27:00 - [15] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Lol at ^ "willingly raped" ^ But, more to the point of this thread, when you say layered objectives, do you perhaps mean the game mode that we originally had in.......Replication, I believe it was? Those were the days. I'm thinking even more freeform than that. The facility is a 2 storied warehouse with a trio of null cannons on the roof. It is surrounded by a defensive wall 200m distant with railgun and blaster turrets surrounding the main gate. The alternate gate is much smaller and partially obstructed by mountains - the only way in is by foot through switchbacks. Each gate has a separate power grid so the have to be knocked out independently. The main building has automated defenses on the first floor. The null cannon and warehouse defense controls are located on the 2nd floor. The roof has a dropship pad flanked by two control towers with autocannon antiair turrets and sniper platforms. The clone storage is in the basement of the warehouse. The owners have also chosen to install a small HAV garage is housed by the main gate and a tunnel connecting the main gate tower to the basement. As a minor base there is not a MCC in position to direct the defense. Now when an attacker arrives, they pick the objective. If they are there for sabotage, they just have to reach the basement and destroy what is in storage. If they want to steal resources they must get their MCC over the facility to lift out the resources. If they want to take over the facility for their own, they have to wipe out every single clone in storage, destroy the control room, park their MCC above the warehouse and maintain possession for 24 hours (so the defenders can try to take it back). Most importantly, there is no clear "best" way to do any of this. Do you suicide rush the roof with dropships and hope to establish a foothold? Do you sneak in through the back gate while feinting at the main gate? Do you simply wreck the main gate completely and push through with heavy armor up to the main door of the warehouse? Also remember, the more damage you cause, the more that needs repaired, no matter who retains ownership afterwards. That is the depth and complexity I expected of DUST.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1266	Posted - 2013.03.24 21:58:00 - [16] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Laheon wrote: True to your first point, but then again, playing the oft-played card, this game has yet to be released. They're still testing it. And despite all of this, I do enjoy DUST. Very much so. I enjoy running from A to B, shooting everyone I come across, then dying trying to hack A. Or raging at the rest of my teammates because they're not doing anything, or are just plain awful. I really, really do. It is released. Sorry to burst your bubble. And this is why testers cannot take you seriously. Also this is the agenda behind every word you speak, you have been poisoned. Actually it was just a tangent to the main idea. So far the best response is more movement options. Possible ideas: Combat Rolls Dives Slides Climbing Blindfire Bullrush Looking for more good suggestions. These are old ideas that existed before the shift away from arcade style. How about the ability to reassign controller buttons better click to melee is a bit cumbersome on the ps3? Of course they are old ideas. They all are. But I'd rather at least try ask people to participate. Better than patting CCP on the back when they don't deserve it.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1274	Posted - 2013.03.27 00:09:00 - [17] - Quote Yosef Autaal wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Logi Bro wrote: Lol at ^ "willingly raped" ^ But, more to the point of this thread, when you say layered objectives, do you perhaps mean the game mode that we originally had in.......Replication, I believe it was? Those were the days. I'm thinking even more freeform than that. The facility is a 2 storied warehouse with a trio of null cannons on the roof. It is surrounded by a defensive wall 200m distant with railgun and blaster turrets surrounding the main gate. The alternate gate is much smaller and partially obstructed by mountains - the only way in is by foot through switchbacks. Each gate has a separate power grid so the have to be knocked out independently. The main building has automated defenses on the first floor. The null cannon and warehouse defense controls are located on the 2nd floor. The roof has a dropship pad flanked by two control towers with autocannon antiair turrets and sniper platforms. The clone storage is in the basement of the warehouse. The owners have also chosen to install a small HAV garage is housed by the main gate and a tunnel connecting the main gate tower to the basement. As a minor base there is not a MCC in position to direct the defense. Now when an attacker arrives, they pick the objective. If they are there for sabotage, they just have to reach the basement and destroy what is in storage. If they want to steal resources they must get their MCC over the facility to lift out the resources. If they want to take over the facility for their own, they have to wipe out every single clone in storage, destroy the control room, park their MCC above the warehouse and maintain possession for 24 hours (so the defenders can try to take it back). Most importantly, there is no clear "best" way to do any of this. Do you suicide rush the roof with dropships and hope to establish a foothold? Do you sneak in through the back gate while feinting at the main gate? Do you simply wreck the main gate completely and push through with heavy armor up to the main door of the warehouse? Also remember, the more damage you cause, the more that needs repaired, no matter who retains ownership afterwards. That is the depth and complexity I expected of DUST. Choosing objectives of attack sounds great and will offer alot of variance to fights and gives capturing a district more tactical decisions which is always good imo So many what ifs...
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1278	Posted - 2013.03.27 00:35:00 - [18] - Quote Icy Xenosmilus wrote: Laheon, we get that you want to support CCP. But honestly, relax for a minute. Noc and others have been here for months (almost a year for some), and its painfully obvious that slowing down gameplay has ruined a lot of what the game was about initially. It's good to support CCP, but some of us remember a time when the game was broken in terms of technicalities, but the gameplay was faster, funner, and better overall, for new players and old ones. Go back a few thousand pages to the essays Protoman, Tony, and tons of other people from before the Closed Open Beta posted, about how the slower speeds were leading to a worse game. All that needed fixing wwas hit detection, which allowed people to absorb bullets, but instead, CCP opted to take the easy way out, and slowed down the speeds to give the illusion of better hit detection. It's duct tape, and all the way up to now, it's been wearing real thin. They aren't turning back though, they are pouring cement on the duct tape. Essentially they threw in the towel on hit detection and high speed. We need more mobility and tactical variety to compensate.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1278	Posted - 2013.03.27 00:38:00 - [19] - Quote Icy Xenosmilus wrote: In response to you Noc, I believe that hacks should be about 2 seconds faster (without mods), and rehacks should be about 10 seconds faster. Also, maps needs layers. For anyone that remembers CraterLake, the map had at least 3-5 levels of rocks and outcrops that provided diverse gameplay. It also had a large bridge connecting the two sidepaths to the objectives, and small installation turrets. This was only the first part of the map. Upon taking out 2 objectives, attackers needed to hack 2 CRU's, basically 2 mini bases near the outskirts of the second part of the map. Then they'd cross a large open expanse of land, usually in tanks/lavs' and fight for the 3 objectives in the type of skirmish we have now. Defenders got random spawning, attackers needed to spawn outside or on uplinks. Exactly! It was a good prototype of the right direction. It's been getting more and more bland ever since...
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1279	Posted - 2013.03.27 00:51:00 - [20] - Quote Laheon wrote: @Icy - I played in July, I followed the initial announcement, and I've tried selling this game to so many of my friends. Sadly, they're lazy idiots and don't want to try a free-to-play game. I'd show them some gameplay, but then again, I'm lazy, and they're lazy, so they don't come visit my place very often. Anyway. Back on point. I have a huge interest in DUST being able to becoming fully developed, as quickly as possible, but I don't want CCP to rush, as I've seen a lot of rushed games, especially MMO's. For one, SW:TOR. I've also known a lot of grind, so I'm used to the long, hard slog of grinding. Yes, the game can be slow. But the game can also be quick. It depends entirely on the situation. I've been here since July, which puts me pretty much at the latter half of the closed beta. Not for the E3 build, true, but I caught most of the OP free-tank build. Not to mention tower-camping with dropships. What I'm trying to tell people is to relax, to give CCP some slack. They're working on it as hard as they can, and it's not as if they can things through without paperwork. They have to push new builds through Sony, which is very time-consuming, and they can hardly "fix" hit detection without a new build. Basically, haranguing them about certain issues, daily, over a time period of six months, does nothing but a, waste your time, b, raise blood pressure, and c, cause less people to post constructively. Trust CCP. 11 months from (what I've heard about the E3 build) an unpolished, very early version of the game to a fully working product is really great work. Lol blaming Sony. Sony accounts for less than a week every build. If anything blame the PS3 cell architecture. But to blame Sony? That's comical. Sony is the ones who put up the money to get this game mainstream and CCP missed their deadline so many times that Sony stopped waiting and released the bundles and stopped mentioning it. Also, the build 11 months ago was better than this one. Explain that away.

Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1279	Posted - 2013.03.27 01:11:00 - [21] - Quote Laheon wrote: PS3 cell architecture...? Surely that's Sony's fault, they did design it. Meh, I'm getting sick of arguing my POV. I officially give up. Just... Try to cut CCP some slack. Don't go so hard on them. It's a little bit disheartening to see people bash your product 24/7, and your hard work, after you've put four years into it. Also: Read FoxFour's posts re: the next build. He says Sony QA takes about a month, which seems right. Every patch I've been through it's been less than a week from build shipped to sony to my ps3. So if that changed it's only because CCP lost their fast track access by being demoted from second party to third party developer. Furthermore that is a NEW limitation on a game that has demonstrably been getting less interesting.