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bacon blaster
VENGEANCE FOR HIRE
4
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Posted - 2013.03.23 19:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
There has been a lot of trouble about balancing protogear and advanced ars with the rest of the game. People have suggested nerfing them, but I would go a different rout.
First, let's fix ars. Give us a patch that gives us the stacking penalties that are on paper only, and not actually implemented. Don't wait for the build in April, do it now. Solve so many problems right ******* there.
Now, let's look at protogear.
The problem here is that it's extremely potent hardwear that is easy as pie to get and field, once you have the sp. What you end up with is pub matches where a whole bunch of people are running the protogear.
This would work if everyone was running similar level gear. That never happens. I always seemed to be in a match where one side is power heavy, and the other side gets farmed. I spawn, I die, I spawn, I die, I spawn, I die. It was so much easier when there wasn't a constant stream of people running proto. I could actually play. Now, I average about 1-2k sp for dying a lot. You can go ahead and say whatever you want about skilling into new gear, at 2k per match, that will take a long ass time to get into anything worth using.
Occaisionally, I get lucky and creep up behind a proto. With an ar, I'll pour a whole mag into him, and generally get through his shield with most of my shots landing. It will usually take me 1.5-2 more mags. He now knows I am there. He can take me out in 3-7 shots, depending on if I have tank. I need to reload. Guess what happens next.
The game is beginning to be not fun anymore because of this. No one cares about farming NPC's, but when you are farming lower level players, it starts to drive them from the game. This will not only keep out new players, but will drive away anyone who was fool enough to not go strait to proto one thing, but experiment instead. This will, if it goes without any sort of fix, kill the game.
That said, this is high level gear, and I feel it should handle as such. Players who have the points invested in it should be able to beat the **** out of people who don't.
So, naturally, this creates a problem. Protogear is completely op, but also hard to skill into. It is, however, so cheap, that people can frequently use it to farm other players in pub matches.
My solution is this: rather than hacking away at the stats until they're no more powerful than anything else, let's impose some penalties on their use. We reduce the amount of sp you gain from matches where you used it by a huge factor. I'm thinking numbers like when you hit your cap. This also makes sense, from a logic stand point, in thatyour sp are essentially xp by another name. These are points you get for learning in battle, in theory. The bigger your challenge, the more you learn. There is no challenge routing a fist full of newbies with a proto squad.
I wouldn't suggest doing this for all fights, just the Instant Action pub matches. It would make sense to see it used without restriction in corp matches and merc battles. In fact, I would suggest an isk bonus to people who use it in merc battles as these are people who are worth more, can do more, and are using pricier hardware. It would make sense that they would be paid more than the average blue berry.
Next, let's up the price quite a bit. it's still too easy to field this stuff.
Lastly, let's up the reward, both in isk and sp, for killing someone running proto. This way, there is an actual reason to try when you get into a fight against protos. I would suggest something like 100k per full proto fit, and about 500 sp. Otherwise, I get more sp crashing drop ships, trying to learn to fly in the redzone on a skirmish. A lot more sp. And I feel about as useful, too.
This way, protogear is still way powerful, and people can still rampage with it. They can use it whenever and where ever they want. But, there is encouragement to use cheaper, lower level gear so as to keep these matches a little more playable to people who can't run the high end stuff. People can all play together without having to separate players as much based on skills.
Otherwise, we go back to the whole issue of firing a whole mag into someone's back, having them shrug it off, and then sneeze at you for more damage. This makes the game unfun for everyone else, particularly new people, and an unfun game is a short lived game.
***edit***
Yes, I am butt hurt about losing 10 suits a match for 2 kills. My aim is good, my shots are hitting, hit detection is working, proto is op. Massively op. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
841
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Posted - 2013.03.23 20:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
First off, I completely agree that fixing the mods bug should be a high priority as in it's present state it creates a lot of confusion and distorts balance feedback.
Moving on, I honestly don't think Proto gear is OP'ed, if anything for it's cost in both SP and ISK Proto is underpowered in some cases. And before anyone gets the wrong impression I say this as someone who's played against players in Proto through more than one build, while never having taken any dropsuit skill above level 3 (meaning that I've yet to run with Proto suits or tanks et al, only against them).
Removing gains from a suit level won't solve the pubstomp problem you describe it will just make the game "shorter". Now instead of paying over a million SP for that final level in dropsuits the SP will simply go into something else. As long as skills and gear have any noteworthy effect on the game they will provide an advantage, if they didn't their presence would be cosmetic and hosting Dust within a persistant world would be meaningless.
Ultimately it's not about the gear, or even the character skills however it's about map mechanics and the value of coordinated play. Pubstomps happened all the time before anyone was into Proto suits and it was the same people doing it then as you see doing it now wearing Proto gear. They're able to dominate because they play frequently and they play within the same squads. Being on comms with a squad a huge advantage, one that gains in effect as the members play together and learn each others moves.
Another factor is the map design itself, territory control radically alters the balance of a match allowing one side to pick off the opposing side piecemeal as they spawn in. You can use a Toxin SMG to take out a Proto heavy if you start shooting him as he spawns, doubly so if he's the only target for you and your 3-5 allies in the area.
It's also important to note that the Proto fits you're describing aren't just the ~1.2 mill SP Proto dropsuits they're also Proto shield mods, Proto armor mods, Proto guns + Proto damage mods (which as you noted are currently broken). You are talking about multi millions of SP to run that fit (more so to run it with properly leveled support skills) and an ISK price tag high enough that being killed in it twice can case a Merc to lose money on the match.
So while I fully agree that the frquency of "redline" pubstomps is a problem and a detriment to the game I don't think altering gear will improve the situation, nor the game in general.
Improvements to Matchmaking, further polish on level design, and fixing bugs like stacking will help to address that. At a certain level until there's a matchmaking system so dynamic and robust that it filters effectively for player skill you'll still have those pubstomp matches sometimes because if the average player skill + squad coordination is significantly higher on one team than the other all the gear in New Eden isn't going to turn that tide. I'm not just saying that either, ask any of the orginized corps or long time players about how they feel when CCP runs Merc events with inexperienced players using characters who have max skill and officer gear... (in my conversations with them the term pinata comes up a lot 
tl;dr
I think your right that there's a problem but it's not with the gear and fiddling with gear/gear related aspects of the game won't lead to a solution.
Cheers,
Cross |
bacon blaster
VENGEANCE FOR HIRE
4
|
Posted - 2013.03.23 20:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Well, Cross, I'm not suggesting that we nerf proto gear, again, but make it so that there is less of it running around. Right now, when I log in, I get into fights where everyone else is running high end gear, and I run mid level fits. Now, I would like to try experimenting with tactics, but, with 2 complex damage mods on a suit with an ar, walk up behind someone running a high end version of my fit, empty a whole mag into him without really doing that much damage, so that he can whip around and totally murder my ass with a few shots, I don't really have a chance to try a new tactic. The sneak up and back shoot is about the only tactic I have right now that doesn't involve sniping or dying in under 3 seconds, and it's based almost completely on luck.
Instead of nerfing the proto stuff and making it pointless (like ccp did with the drake in eve) I'm suggesting we tweak the reward system in certain match types (only instant actions, atm) so that those of us who can't run it have a place to go and not be farmed.
I'm kind of against match making systems, tbh, because they always seem to be a bit broken. You can base it on sp, and then layers like me who spread it out and experimented early on are ****** because we get dumped with people who went strait to proto in one thing, and thus we are ******. You can base it on time played, and people who are decent get dumped with pros, and farmed because they just aren't as good as they are, regardless of skills and gear. The best option would seem to be average level of skills, and even that would be iffy.
Also, one of the things I love about eve is that there is no match making or elite areas or anything of the sort. Newbies and veterans are mixed in, and anyone can end up in a fight with anyone. There is no one holding your hand, or penalizing people for rampaging through rookies.
The big difference here, and the only reason that this works in Eve, is that in Eve there is no built in reward for pvp. Obviously, this game is different, and requires different solutions, ones that are not viable in eve. Still, I do not think that some players should be cut off from fighting other players. I still want to run the chance of finding anyone in a fight, just on a more level field.
Under my tweaks, the proto gear would be functionally the same, it would just be used less in pub matches, giving everyone a chance at an actual fight, and not a pub farm, and you would still get the same sp reward in a corp or mec battle, plus extra cash in a merc fight.
I grant you, pub stomps are an on going problem, and part of it is how matches are made, part is how people fight. But, this is a stomp, and it is still playable. The Stomp can, in fact, be broken. With a farm, however, you're running low level gear to try to fight elite level gear. You may as well just go without guns and suits as they really don't make that big of a difference, it would just be cheaper.
tl;dr
I'm saying leave the gear alone, tweak reward system surrounding gear in certain match ty |
Jathniel
G I A N T
108
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Posted - 2013.03.23 23:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
First off, slowly take your hand OFF of the nerf hammer... okay? good.
Now, let's talk specifics.
I believe you are speaking about proto-assault suits and proto ARs. Correct? (In my experience nothing else is as abundantly obnoxious.)
I like that you make recommendations to limit their use, but they defeat the purpose of actually using them. If you risk the more expensive gear, you should get the bigger reward. That's a given principle. Fact. So let's not change anything related to SP. That would be backtracking, and the players voted for the current system.
What we have here is a balancing issue. CCP reduced the performance between the different tier weapons to promote a more even exchange of fire on the battlefield. So the guy using the proto AR has no ABSOLUTE superiority with his dps over yours.
It is said that the damage mods are malfunctioning, but ONLY the full-auto ARs (and especially proto ARs), and LRs appear to be OP with them. Every other weapon operates well-balanced with damage mods in their current "broken" state.
So yes, full-auto ARs, LRs, and how they operate with damage mods should be looked at.
The Assault suit has been gradually emerging as a villain. It dominates practically everything else. Especially at proto-level. This is just my opinion, but I think the problem is that it's not fulfilling the role that it was designed for.
Assaults were meant to adapt to any circumstance on the battlefield.
Right now, at proto-level they are tanking. Assaults are shield tanking. They shouldn't be doing ANY tanking.
When someone unloads an AR clip or does two point-blank shotgun rounds into you, you should die, unless you are a Heavy.
Assaults have shield capacities that are too high.
I recommended that instead of Assault suits having high shield capacity, they have shield adaptability instead. As in, the shield can adapt to the kind of ammo it's being hit by, and cut incoming damage by 50%. Switch up your weapon and drop them easily. The switch can occur manually, or automatically after taking an initial hit. It would help Assault suits have a measure of resistance vs. everyone, but true tanking would and should only belong to the Heavy.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=65167&find=unread
I do personally see a problem with Assault suits in general, however. |
RINON114
B.S.A.A.
70
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Posted - 2013.03.24 02:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
Please, no more nerfing. I like being able to live against a heavy if I run away.
Seriously though, I run with two guys who play as a heavy and as a sniper. As an assault I fill the support for a heavy and the sniper supports us both, we are a great team and this is probably where the perceived power of the assault suit comes from.
The assault suit is versatile and the only thing it does better than another suit is be versatile. You can be medic, AV, anti infantry,but not so much as the other classes. |
Happy Violentime
OMFGZOMBIESRUN
16
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Posted - 2013.03.24 02:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Caldari assault dropsuit - Caldari favors shield tanking <--working as intended imho
Wait for the other racial classes.. |
RINON114
B.S.A.A.
70
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 08:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
My advice if you want: run better gear. I was in your situation for a long ass time and it wasn't my SP that changed my fortunes, it was a conversation with two people who were miles ahead of me in terms of skill and overall everything. These guys advised me to use shield extenders instead of damage mods, and use the assault type 2 for greater survivability overall. The moment you notice your shields taking a hit you RUN and find a buddy or try and outsmart them.
Another piece of advice: If you can't beat them, join them. If you're being nailed to the fence every match use some better gear and run with some guys. If you can't play because you have no mic, send me a message and I'll squad with you. See how you feel then? |
CYRAX SERVIUS
Planetary Response Organisation
Test Friends Please Ignore
38
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Posted - 2013.03.24 14:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Try this, weaponry, sharpshooter, assault rifle op, all at lvl5 is a must. all shield skills lvl3 minimum. Caldari assault dropsuit lvl4. Type A assault, enhanced or complex sheild extenders and complex armour plate, shield regenerator, light armor rep, gek38 or duvolle with ONE damage mod will give you a good mid priced loadout to give you a fighting chance. I run a nice type 2 setup also. You are going to have to skill up anyway for when you want YOUR proto anyway, so the sp isn't wasted. I am working on last lvl of dropsuit for my proto. I have a couple versions of the type A depending on the situation and have no problem holding my own as I can get almost 750 total hp on one of my fits. Last but not least, use cover and practice aiming for the head... |
slypie11
Planetary Response Organisation
Test Friends Please Ignore
11
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 15:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Wow, that's how you stand a fighting chance? Wow. I must be doing terrible. All I'm running is a type 2 heavy with duvolle ar and basic armor plates |
CYRAX SERVIUS
Planetary Response Organisation
Test Friends Please Ignore
40
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 22:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
slypie11 wrote:Wow, that's how you stand a fighting chance? Wow. I must be doing terrible. All I'm running is a type 2 heavy with duvolle ar and basic armor plates
Problem, running a heavy with an assault rifle, talk to some of the top heavy users in the corp about that one. type two heavy with A hm82 or better with weaponry, heavy mg op, heavy sharpshooter all at lvl5, seems like better option to me but I don't run heavy. I would talk to someone like Johlsson for instance about advice on the heavy. I was stating what works for me. By no means does it make you a super power, but it gives me a fighting chance, staying mobile, using cover, maybe help you last long enough till you get some help from teammates. But using an ar on a heavy suit where you are already mobility limited, then using a gun that holds 60 rounds per mag, sounds like your handicapping yourself. |
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
843
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Posted - 2013.03.26 02:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
@bacon blaster
I understand that you're not asking for a nerf to the stats of Proto gear but you are in effect asking for a nerf to the value of proto gear as the suggestions made in the OP diminish the reward possible while leaving the risk as high as ever.
I want to reiterate again that on average I don't get farmed in pub matches and my fits are generally 80-100% Meta 1 gear so I really don't see how Proto could be considered broken. I even took my Meta 1 fits into the Asian Gameshow matches and (as a Logi) racked up a positive KDR against the 'gameshow' guys who were running characters with max skill and proto/officer gear. I raked in ISK hand over fist in those matches even when I didn't have a positive KDR and earned solid SP as well (sometimes over 12k in a match). The guys in the gameshow had better gear and character skills than one can have at this point in the game (without Jovian intervention) and I didn't just stand toe to toe with them I consistantly came out on top.
I did this as a player who's never been in the top 20 on the leaderboard (I'm not even sure if I've hit top 100, I honestly pay nearly zero attention to the leaderboards :p ).
I think you raise valid points with regards to matchmaking but it would only apply to instant battles so the limitations would be somewhat mitigated in my view, and on balance a worthwhile trade off when comparing an imperfect matchmaking system to a complete lack of one (again for instant battles specifically).
There also seems to be a bit of confusion about how Corp battles and their like function. You cain 0 SP and 0 ISK for participation in those battles, only your Corp earns ISK and then only if your team wins so instant battles are the only place where SP earnings apply in the first place. Further at this stage of the game where much of the content isn't implemented yet taking away final goals that players have ('yes you can level into that proto gear but as soon as you've spent the 1.2 mill for level 5 you'll earn even less if you decide to run it') within this limited context will simply reduct player activity levels which doesn't provide an on balance benfit to the game as far as I can tell.
You've mentioned trying different tactics, have you attempted to employ Flux Grenades? Most players run fairly shield heavy and tossing a Flux into a hostile squad can let your squad mop them up pretty quickly more often than not. There's also the question of your chosen battlefield role and who you're pitting it against. A shotgun scout head-shotting someone at point blank range does massive damage even to defense fit proto guys, a sniper rifle to the head does the same, or getting caught out by a heated up laser beam. I personally use Flux + Mass Driver to great effect. The Flux shreds shields and the Driver does heavy damge to armor, both apply dps in an AoE allowing for solid area denial and proto gear or no those Mercs die when you pin them down with AoE and your fire support focuses them down.
If all else fails a solid squad can usually pull off an OB even running free gear in a pubstomp, drop that OB on a proto squad and the ISK loss you've inflected can nearly wipe out (sometimes more than wipe out) their ISK earnings for that match.
Again I say this as someone who doesn't really use Proto gear, all of the above has worked for me against proto gear while I wasn't using any proto myself. If anything proto gear could do with a slight touch up to raise it's effective power level (or more specifically reduce the ISK cost to be in line with the new reduced stats from nerfs gone by).
0.02 ISK
Cross
ps ~ If your concern isn't effective combat but rather effective WP and thus SP earnings you can even skip being part of a squad and level up your hacking and mobility skills. Run a free scout suit with hacking and speed mods, and just avoid combat as much as you can while hacking everything in sight. Requires no mic, no squad, little to no support from your team of any kind and you can still net over 1000 WP (usually more like 1200-1500) in a Skirmish. That's what I did before my mic showed up and I got into a squad. It requires minimal ISK investment (or a mild one time AUR investment for the BPOs) and less total SP to max out all related skills. Once you have it going you're able to level up whatever else you want without worry until you can run the gear to suit any tactic you desire. |
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