Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
841
   |
Posted - 2013.03.23 20:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
First off, I completely agree that fixing the mods bug should be a high priority as in it's present state it creates a lot of confusion and distorts balance feedback.
Moving on, I honestly don't think Proto gear is OP'ed, if anything for it's cost in both SP and ISK Proto is underpowered in some cases. And before anyone gets the wrong impression I say this as someone who's played against players in Proto through more than one build, while never having taken any dropsuit skill above level 3 (meaning that I've yet to run with Proto suits or tanks et al, only against them).
Removing gains from a suit level won't solve the pubstomp problem you describe it will just make the game "shorter". Now instead of paying over a million SP for that final level in dropsuits the SP will simply go into something else. As long as skills and gear have any noteworthy effect on the game they will provide an advantage, if they didn't their presence would be cosmetic and hosting Dust within a persistant world would be meaningless.
Ultimately it's not about the gear, or even the character skills however it's about map mechanics and the value of coordinated play. Pubstomps happened all the time before anyone was into Proto suits and it was the same people doing it then as you see doing it now wearing Proto gear. They're able to dominate because they play frequently and they play within the same squads. Being on comms with a squad a huge advantage, one that gains in effect as the members play together and learn each others moves.
Another factor is the map design itself, territory control radically alters the balance of a match allowing one side to pick off the opposing side piecemeal as they spawn in. You can use a Toxin SMG to take out a Proto heavy if you start shooting him as he spawns, doubly so if he's the only target for you and your 3-5 allies in the area.
It's also important to note that the Proto fits you're describing aren't just the ~1.2 mill SP Proto dropsuits they're also Proto shield mods, Proto armor mods, Proto guns + Proto damage mods (which as you noted are currently broken). You are talking about multi millions of SP to run that fit (more so to run it with properly leveled support skills) and an ISK price tag high enough that being killed in it twice can case a Merc to lose money on the match.
So while I fully agree that the frquency of "redline" pubstomps is a problem and a detriment to the game I don't think altering gear will improve the situation, nor the game in general.
Improvements to Matchmaking, further polish on level design, and fixing bugs like stacking will help to address that. At a certain level until there's a matchmaking system so dynamic and robust that it filters effectively for player skill you'll still have those pubstomp matches sometimes because if the average player skill + squad coordination is significantly higher on one team than the other all the gear in New Eden isn't going to turn that tide. I'm not just saying that either, ask any of the orginized corps or long time players about how they feel when CCP runs Merc events with inexperienced players using characters who have max skill and officer gear... (in my conversations with them the term pinata comes up a lot 
tl;dr
I think your right that there's a problem but it's not with the gear and fiddling with gear/gear related aspects of the game won't lead to a solution.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
843
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 02:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
@bacon blaster
I understand that you're not asking for a nerf to the stats of Proto gear but you are in effect asking for a nerf to the value of proto gear as the suggestions made in the OP diminish the reward possible while leaving the risk as high as ever.
I want to reiterate again that on average I don't get farmed in pub matches and my fits are generally 80-100% Meta 1 gear so I really don't see how Proto could be considered broken. I even took my Meta 1 fits into the Asian Gameshow matches and (as a Logi) racked up a positive KDR against the 'gameshow' guys who were running characters with max skill and proto/officer gear. I raked in ISK hand over fist in those matches even when I didn't have a positive KDR and earned solid SP as well (sometimes over 12k in a match). The guys in the gameshow had better gear and character skills than one can have at this point in the game (without Jovian intervention) and I didn't just stand toe to toe with them I consistantly came out on top.
I did this as a player who's never been in the top 20 on the leaderboard (I'm not even sure if I've hit top 100, I honestly pay nearly zero attention to the leaderboards :p ).
I think you raise valid points with regards to matchmaking but it would only apply to instant battles so the limitations would be somewhat mitigated in my view, and on balance a worthwhile trade off when comparing an imperfect matchmaking system to a complete lack of one (again for instant battles specifically).
There also seems to be a bit of confusion about how Corp battles and their like function. You cain 0 SP and 0 ISK for participation in those battles, only your Corp earns ISK and then only if your team wins so instant battles are the only place where SP earnings apply in the first place. Further at this stage of the game where much of the content isn't implemented yet taking away final goals that players have ('yes you can level into that proto gear but as soon as you've spent the 1.2 mill for level 5 you'll earn even less if you decide to run it') within this limited context will simply reduct player activity levels which doesn't provide an on balance benfit to the game as far as I can tell.
You've mentioned trying different tactics, have you attempted to employ Flux Grenades? Most players run fairly shield heavy and tossing a Flux into a hostile squad can let your squad mop them up pretty quickly more often than not. There's also the question of your chosen battlefield role and who you're pitting it against. A shotgun scout head-shotting someone at point blank range does massive damage even to defense fit proto guys, a sniper rifle to the head does the same, or getting caught out by a heated up laser beam. I personally use Flux + Mass Driver to great effect. The Flux shreds shields and the Driver does heavy damge to armor, both apply dps in an AoE allowing for solid area denial and proto gear or no those Mercs die when you pin them down with AoE and your fire support focuses them down.
If all else fails a solid squad can usually pull off an OB even running free gear in a pubstomp, drop that OB on a proto squad and the ISK loss you've inflected can nearly wipe out (sometimes more than wipe out) their ISK earnings for that match.
Again I say this as someone who doesn't really use Proto gear, all of the above has worked for me against proto gear while I wasn't using any proto myself. If anything proto gear could do with a slight touch up to raise it's effective power level (or more specifically reduce the ISK cost to be in line with the new reduced stats from nerfs gone by).
0.02 ISK
Cross
ps ~ If your concern isn't effective combat but rather effective WP and thus SP earnings you can even skip being part of a squad and level up your hacking and mobility skills. Run a free scout suit with hacking and speed mods, and just avoid combat as much as you can while hacking everything in sight. Requires no mic, no squad, little to no support from your team of any kind and you can still net over 1000 WP (usually more like 1200-1500) in a Skirmish. That's what I did before my mic showed up and I got into a squad. It requires minimal ISK investment (or a mild one time AUR investment for the BPOs) and less total SP to max out all related skills. Once you have it going you're able to level up whatever else you want without worry until you can run the gear to suit any tactic you desire. |