DUST Search - ATTN DEVS: Fix the Dmg mod Stacking

Cross Atu wrote:

Dany 7A5H wrote:

Cross Atu wrote:

Last I read the stacking penalties were NOT properly in effect within game. To the best of my knowladge there is no extra bonus on top (of the broken stacking penalty).

Regardless of whether this is a display issue, a penalty issue or a bonus issue it is very much an issue.
Any tester who is not aware of the facts in this damage mod situation (which may be every tester) cannot give fully accurate feedback regarding weapon balance or defensive balance. If the mods are not functioning properly then imbalanced effects seen could be the result of mods not the weapon in question. If the mods are functioning properly then over the top dps could be written off as a non-issue because the tester incorrectly believes it to be related to broken mods.

Without some direct resolution to this issue all testing data becomes, to varying degrees, more polluted and less actionable.

0.02 ISK
Cross

How about we do a test that doesnt use mathematics but something I like to call common sense?

You will stand in a Proto Heavy suit with 1000+ehp

Ill quad complex AR you

we will both start counting up in seconds

We will both see if your still alive past 2

Your test is too simple to effectively determine anything even if we leave math out of it.

Are both characters of equal total SP amount and allocation?
Which weapon is within it's optimal range?
Which AR is used?
Which proto suit is used armor or shield?
Are both players using ADS and trying for headshots or no?

Your proposed test also completely misses the point of my post, which is that something being broken doesn't allow a clear read on what is broken or how much and whether or not the imbalance is due to a broken aspect(s) or an unintended synergy becoming overpowered.

Granted some of my questions above assume that the heavy in question is shooting back during the test but if we're going to apply common sense within a comparative battlefield context than certainly enemy retaliation should be present.

As to results either A) the heavy will die rapidly (2 sec, 4 sec, whatever) or B) the heavy will not.
Regardless this establishes essentially nothing regarding the casual factors in play. The test would have to be repeated with differing weapons (minimum twice for each, once with and once without damage mods, tho several tests adding one mod each time would be ideal).
The most your proposed test could hope to establish is that there is or is not some form of imbalance within a very specific context but it doesn't speak to why which was at the center of my prior post.

0.02 ISK
Cross

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Adstellarum G I A N T 9	Posted - 2013.03.21 16:25:00 - [1] - Quote you say you implemented stacking penalties well apparantly instead of giving penalties to stacking them you gave them a bonus because with 2 on any suit you get a 1.21 dmg bonus with 3 it becomes 1.33 dmg bonus and with 4 yes 4 you get 1.46 dmg bonus
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 273	Posted - 2013.03.21 17:13:00 - [2] - Quote I'm glad someone finally brought this up.
CPL Bloodstone SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 24	Posted - 2013.03.21 17:17:00 - [3] - Quote +1
M3DIC 2U Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 27	Posted - 2013.03.21 17:24:00 - [4] - Quote someone put a + instead of a - in the code?
Dany 7A5H G I A N T 13	Posted - 2013.03.21 18:09:00 - [5] - Quote Adstellarum wrote: you say you implemented stacking penalties well apparantly instead of giving penalties to stacking them you gave them a bonus because with 2 on any suit you get a 1.21 dmg bonus with 3 it becomes 1.33 dmg bonus and with 4 yes 4 you get 1.46 dmg bonus Im not going to give numbers so we dont have a flock of blueberries trying this and all havok breaks loose (or maybe thats what we need for this to finally get fixed?!) but this needs to looking into. being able to kill proto suits, heavies and tanks in a matter of seconds is complete bullshit.
Aeon Amadi WarRavens 1115	Posted - 2013.03.21 18:46:00 - [6] - Quote M3DIC 2U wrote: someone put a + instead of a - in the code? Wouldn't be the first time. http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/09/17/new-eve-exploit-gives-wormhole-corp-incredible-advantage/ Edit: I'm seriously about to get in touch with some of my associates and start up the same Forum Crusade we did with the Laser Rifle Skills. For the record, that took an entire ******* month of campaigning just to get CCP to acknowledge that they were broken.
KalOfTheRathi CowTek 252	Posted - 2013.03.21 19:06:00 - [7] - Quote Search, what a concept! Is this a great forum or what? It was broken Long before Chromosome. I don't recall, and don't care, but it might even have always been broken. Glad you brought it up as it just reminds us how difficult it is to get CCP/Shanghai to even remember that there is an entire community of players in the Beta, Closed and now Open, that would like to have some acknowledgement that there are ... certain inconsistencies. Beyond Soon(bs).
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Daringly Inserting Large Dangerous Objects 31	Posted - 2013.03.21 20:16:00 - [8] - Quote M3DIC 2U wrote: someone put a + instead of a - in the code? i think its more of a x instead of /
Buster Friently Rosen Association 131	Posted - 2013.03.21 20:51:00 - [9] - Quote Wow, and the stupidity continues. It's true that the stacking penalties aren't displayed on the fittings screen, but there is no "extra". Percentages are multiplicative - always. 1.11.1=1.21 1.11.11.1=1.331 1.11.11.11.1=1.4641 Please learn some mathematics before criticizing. Now, as to whether or not the stacking penalties are actually being applied in game, but not displayed correctly on the fittings screen, I think only CCP knows. Also, use search. This must be the tenth thread on this.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 832	Posted - 2013.03.21 21:30:00 - [10] - Quote Last I read the stacking penalties were NOT properly in effect within game. To the best of my knowladge there is no extra bonus on top (of the broken stacking penalty). Regardless of whether this is a display issue, a penalty issue or a bonus issue it is very much an issue. Any tester who is not aware of the facts in this damage mod situation (which may be every tester) cannot give fully accurate feedback regarding weapon balance or defensive balance. If the mods are not functioning properly then imbalanced effects seen could be the result of mods not the weapon in question. If the mods are functioning properly then over the top dps could be written off as a non-issue because the tester incorrectly believes it to be related to broken mods. Without some direct resolution to this issue all testing data becomes, to varying degrees, more polluted and less actionable. 0.02 ISK Cross

Adstellarum G I A N T 12	Posted - 2013.03.21 22:00:00 - [11] - Quote yes i know this may be the tenth or so topic of this infact i know i had put up like a month or 2 ago this same topic... or if they devs really want to get creative they could have the dmg mods increase the weapon's CPU and PG requirements so that maybe after 2 any more would mean dropping other equipment on the suit
Buster Friently Rosen Association 131	Posted - 2013.03.21 22:23:00 - [12] - Quote Well, I agree that the bug should be fixed, whether it be cosmetic or functional, but at least get the math right when you post - it doesn't help your credibility. Personally, I'm suspicious that the bug is merely a cosmetic one and that stacking penalties are being applied in game. This is purely a guess though.
Dany 7A5H G I A N T 14	Posted - 2013.03.21 23:52:00 - [13] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Last I read the stacking penalties were NOT properly in effect within game. To the best of my knowladge there is no extra bonus on top (of the broken stacking penalty). Regardless of whether this is a display issue, a penalty issue or a bonus issue it is very much an issue. Any tester who is not aware of the facts in this damage mod situation (which may be every tester) cannot give fully accurate feedback regarding weapon balance or defensive balance. If the mods are not functioning properly then imbalanced effects seen could be the result of mods not the weapon in question. If the mods are functioning properly then over the top dps could be written off as a non-issue because the tester incorrectly believes it to be related to broken mods. Without some direct resolution to this issue all testing data becomes, to varying degrees, more polluted and less actionable. 0.02 ISK Cross How about we do a test that doesnt use mathematics but something I like to call common sense? You will stand in a Proto Heavy suit with 1000+ehp Ill quad complex AR you we will both start counting up in seconds We will both see if your still alive past 2
Dany 7A5H G I A N T 14	Posted - 2013.03.21 23:54:00 - [14] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: Well, I agree that the bug should be fixed, whether it be cosmetic or functional, but at least get the math right when you post - it doesn't help your credibility. Personally, I'm suspicious that the bug is merely a cosmetic one and that stacking penalties are being applied in game. This is purely a guess though. Here's the CCP comment from the weekly thread in this very forum: there are known bugs regarding damage mods stacking and numbers displayed on the fitting screen. Note that CCP's comments makes it seem like the error may be only cosmetic. Lets put some numbers up. My tank has over 10,000 EHP, and a darksider quad damage mod build kills me in about 2 volleys.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 132	Posted - 2013.03.22 02:06:00 - [15] - Quote Dany 7A5H wrote: Buster Friently wrote: Well, I agree that the bug should be fixed, whether it be cosmetic or functional, but at least get the math right when you post - it doesn't help your credibility. Personally, I'm suspicious that the bug is merely a cosmetic one and that stacking penalties are being applied in game. This is purely a guess though. Here's the CCP comment from the weekly thread in this very forum: there are known bugs regarding damage mods stacking and numbers displayed on the fitting screen. Note that CCP's comments makes it seem like the error may be only cosmetic. Lets put some numbers up. My tank has over 10,000 EHP, and a darksider quad damage mod build kills me in about 2 volleys. I applaud the idea, but in order to test stacking penalties, much more accurate numbers are needed.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 833	Posted - 2013.03.22 04:45:00 - [16] - Quote Dany 7A5H wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Last I read the stacking penalties were NOT properly in effect within game. To the best of my knowladge there is no extra bonus on top (of the broken stacking penalty). Regardless of whether this is a display issue, a penalty issue or a bonus issue it is very much an issue. Any tester who is not aware of the facts in this damage mod situation (which may be every tester) cannot give fully accurate feedback regarding weapon balance or defensive balance. If the mods are not functioning properly then imbalanced effects seen could be the result of mods not the weapon in question. If the mods are functioning properly then over the top dps could be written off as a non-issue because the tester incorrectly believes it to be related to broken mods. Without some direct resolution to this issue all testing data becomes, to varying degrees, more polluted and less actionable. 0.02 ISK Cross How about we do a test that doesnt use mathematics but something I like to call common sense? You will stand in a Proto Heavy suit with 1000+ehp Ill quad complex AR you we will both start counting up in seconds We will both see if your still alive past 2 Your test is too simple to effectively determine anything even if we leave math out of it. Are both characters of equal total SP amount and allocation? Which weapon is within it's optimal range? Which AR is used? Which proto suit is used armor or shield? Are both players using ADS and trying for headshots or no? Your proposed test also completely misses the point of my post, which is that something being broken doesn't allow a clear read on what is broken or how much and whether or not the imbalance is due to a broken aspect(s) or an unintended synergy becoming overpowered. Granted some of my questions above assume that the heavy in question is shooting back during the test but if we're going to apply common sense within a comparative battlefield context than certainly enemy retaliation should be present. As to results either A) the heavy will die rapidly (2 sec, 4 sec, whatever) or B) the heavy will not. Regardless this establishes essentially nothing regarding the casual factors in play. The test would have to be repeated with differing weapons (minimum twice for each, once with and once without damage mods, tho several tests adding one mod each time would be ideal). The most your proposed test could hope to establish is that there is or is not some form of imbalance within a very specific context but it doesn't speak to why which was at the center of my prior post. 0.02 ISK Cross
Aeon Amadi WarRavens 1115	Posted - 2013.03.22 04:46:00 - [17] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: Dany 7A5H wrote: Buster Friently wrote: Well, I agree that the bug should be fixed, whether it be cosmetic or functional, but at least get the math right when you post - it doesn't help your credibility. Personally, I'm suspicious that the bug is merely a cosmetic one and that stacking penalties are being applied in game. This is purely a guess though. Here's the CCP comment from the weekly thread in this very forum: there are known bugs regarding damage mods stacking and numbers displayed on the fitting screen. Note that CCP's comments makes it seem like the error may be only cosmetic. Lets put some numbers up. My tank has over 10,000 EHP, and a darksider quad damage mod build kills me in about 2 volleys. I applaud the idea, but in order to test stacking penalties, much more accurate numbers are needed. Not a hard thing to do, actually. Fire once at a friend who's on the enemy team, have them relay the damage to you. Stack up some damage mods, fire once at the same friend and then see if there's a difference in the amount of damage done. Don't forget to take into account range, you must be at the exact same range as you were the first time and you must hit the exact same place as last time (headshots do more damage on all weapons).
Aeon Amadi WarRavens 1115	Posted - 2013.03.22 04:52:00 - [18] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Dany 7A5H wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Last I read the stacking penalties were NOT properly in effect within game. To the best of my knowladge there is no extra bonus on top (of the broken stacking penalty). Regardless of whether this is a display issue, a penalty issue or a bonus issue it is very much an issue. Any tester who is not aware of the facts in this damage mod situation (which may be every tester) cannot give fully accurate feedback regarding weapon balance or defensive balance. If the mods are not functioning properly then imbalanced effects seen could be the result of mods not the weapon in question. If the mods are functioning properly then over the top dps could be written off as a non-issue because the tester incorrectly believes it to be related to broken mods. Without some direct resolution to this issue all testing data becomes, to varying degrees, more polluted and less actionable. 0.02 ISK Cross How about we do a test that doesnt use mathematics but something I like to call common sense? You will stand in a Proto Heavy suit with 1000+ehp Ill quad complex AR you we will both start counting up in seconds We will both see if your still alive past 2 Your test is too simple to effectively determine anything even if we leave math out of it. Are both characters of equal total SP amount and allocation? Which weapon is within it's optimal range? Which AR is used? Which proto suit is used armor or shield? Are both players using ADS and trying for headshots or no? Your proposed test also completely misses the point of my post, which is that something being broken doesn't allow a clear read on what is broken or how much and whether or not the imbalance is due to a broken aspect(s) or an unintended synergy becoming overpowered. Granted some of my questions above assume that the heavy in question is shooting back during the test but if we're going to apply common sense within a comparative battlefield context than certainly enemy retaliation should be present. As to results either A) the heavy will die rapidly (2 sec, 4 sec, whatever) or B) the heavy will not. Regardless this establishes essentially nothing regarding the casual factors in play. The test would have to be repeated with differing weapons (minimum twice for each, once with and once without damage mods, tho several tests adding one mod each time would be ideal). The most your proposed test could hope to establish is that there is or is not some form of imbalance within a very specific context but it doesn't speak to why which was at the center of my prior post. 0.02 ISK Cross Damage isn't reflected by SP and allocation when it comes to this test. As long as the skills remain the same as they did for one test, the damage will only be affected by the damage mods in the second test. Again, if you're firing from the same range as before than the results should not matter. Again, if you're using the same AR as before, this does not affect the results. The only thing you need to do to test raw damage is take into account all aspects are the same as your control. The only real concern at that point is elevation, but this is easily rectified by placing some equipment on the ground to mark your position - a drop uplink would work well as you can usually have two out at once with the standard models. 40m is generally the range when damage efficiency starts to drop off. Anything beneath that and the Assault Rifle will do 110% efficiency as long as it's not a headshot, in which it will be doing 165%. With this in mind, your goal is to fire the same amount of rounds in each test. Keep in mind however that it's hard to fire a single bullet from an Assault Rifle, so this test should be conducted with a Tactical Assault Rifle to ensure accuracy in the rounds fired, or burst as it's a seven round burst every time. Because science.
Dany 7A5H G I A N T 14	Posted - 2013.03.22 06:05:00 - [19] - Quote Considering swarms do not take dmg -/+ variables due to range, and the fact that mathematically with dmg mod penalties there is NO WAY in hell they should hit for 5000 dmg per volley, explain how the hell this is not a determining factor? your persistance in trying to sound intelligent on a game forum is showing more of an ignorance to face the truth over mathematical knowledge. If you think damage mods work properly, you have furthermore never played EVE, and I question the amount of DUST you play as well. Stop over-thinking an easily viewable fact last I checked, the mini cooper is a small car....did I measure the car? weight it? No, I used simple fricken common sense.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 835	Posted - 2013.03.22 06:31:00 - [20] - Quote Dany 7A5H wrote: Considering swarms do not take dmg -/+ variables due to range, and the fact that mathematically with dmg mod penalties there is NO WAY in hell they should hit for 5000 dmg per volley, explain how the hell this is not a determining factor? How is that related to your previously suggested "common sense" test? Quote: your persistance in trying to sound intelligent on a game forum is showing more of an ignorance to face the truth over mathematical knowledge. Not sure why you're bringing up mathematics again or what the point of this section is at all aside from possibly being an ad hominem Quote: If you think damage mods work properly, you have furthermore never played EVE, and I question the amount of DUST you play as well. Never said I thought they weren't broken, if you're under the misapprehension that I somehow said that and are trying to 'prove me wrong' with regards to that claim then this discussion can't go anywhere as I did not in fact make the claim you are attributing to me. Quote: Stop over-thinking an easily viewable fact last I checked, the mini cooper is a small car....did I measure the car? weight it? No, I used simple fricken common sense. edit: better analogy.... I drop a 1 pound weight on my foot...it hurts I then drop a heavier multi-pound weight on my foot, and it hurts more! I did not measure these weights, however i know one is larger than the other... If you want to create an analogy which accurately represents the test you proposed then you'd have to be dropping bags with an assortment of items on your foot and trying to support that one weighs more because your subjective pain level was higher. @Aeon Amadi that would be a functional test. For the record it was not my intent to say this couldn't be tested simply that the proposed method to which I was responding was A)flawed and B) did not actually address my initial assertions that CCP should provide a clear and expedient resolution to this matter because it's persistence is detrimental to overall testing. @thread Since there seems to be some confusion I'll quote the first line of my first post in this thread Quote: Last I read the stacking penalties were NOT properly in effect within game. In other words to the best of my knowledge damage mods are currently broken, but even if they're not broken and only the display is broken that's still a technical issue that needs fixing as it can distort perceptions and thus feedback.



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