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SoCal Ninja
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.03.17 06:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey guys, since I've been playing a little more frequently now I thought I'd put up my major complaint I have with the current beta. These are simply my thoughts and you may disagree, or these topics may have been already beaten into the ground, but anyway...
Basically I Hate the new spawn system for ambush. So... So much hate. But let me try to expand a little more on that, and tell you why.
When I played youth soccer my Dad affectionately called our strategy to play "Beehive Soccer". Meaning everyone just ran towards the ball and tried to kick it. Then when it moved the whole group would run to where the ball landed. That's what the spawn system is doing to dust. By spawning near your teammates it means that two big clusters of people form and they just continually run into each other on ambush. So that's fine I guess, some of you may be in favor of this. So in the words of inception, we have to go deeper.
Why is this a problem? Well positioning is key in this game. Too many times I've had my team get into a horrible position and then be unable to move out of it due to continually spawning back at the location. I times like this I'm trying to encourage the team to just simply move instead of fight back, because we've just become a kill farming area.
Also, the fact that any enemy player can be a spawn beacon for an incoming enemy is quite annoying. I means that up to 5 seconds after I kill someone I may have a new enemy plop down on my head. Which brings us to the main (selfish) reason that I hate the spawn system.
This spawn systems makes scouts useless. Before battles were more spread out. You could get behind groups of enemies or run into some 1v1s that the extra mobility and shielding could help you. But now we fight almost revolutionary war style in big groups facing each other. It's hard to close the distance or get into the enemy position unnoticed. I've really don't see the point in scout in this build at the moment.
Anyway, that's my 2cents. You're probably not going to convince me out of this stance, but I welcome counter arguments just cause I like healthy debates. Also, if I'm totally off base let me know gently, just got back into this game and I could be missing something.
Cheers, |
Rusty Shallows
Creative Killers
11
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Posted - 2013.03.17 06:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
That's an interesting take on the grouping mechanics the current spawning has. I think the current is better than the previous one. Meaningless spawn deaths costing ISK and KDR pretty much drove me out of playing Ambush.
Any alternative system would have to address that issue. |
SoCal Ninja
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.03.17 07:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Very true. The extremes are true random which was similar to some of the earlier builds, strict spawn location, and player centric spawn. It really should be a blend of all three. |
Power Chord
Chernova Industries
3
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Posted - 2013.03.17 07:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
I sort of like that "revolutionary war style" fighting, feels really intense. Though I agree it is not what is best all things considered. |
Belzeebub Santana
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
445
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Posted - 2013.03.17 07:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
What UP SOCAL!
Ya the blob spawns do favor the brute mentality of heavies and shock troopers and the sneaky lone style play has gotten tossed aside.
A blend of both would be best and think what most have discussed as being a better solution to what we have. Also there are talks of an orbital spawn a la Starhawk.
The initial spawn should be a team spawn but after that you have to make your way back to the team or spawn on an uplink. It should take into account nearby threats and location of enemy blob and friendly blob. |
IRuby Heart
DIOS EX.
420
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Posted - 2013.03.17 07:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
SoCal Ninja wrote:Snip/ New Ambush spawns suck and need to be rolled back ASAP CCP!
Cheers
I agree with everything you've said. I hate the new Ambush spawns been saying so for a while now but meh you get used to it I guess. I'd really like to go back to the old spawn system.
Quote:This spawn systems makes scouts useless. Before battles were more spread out. You could get behind groups of enemies or run into some 1v1s that the extra mobility and shielding could help you. But now we fight almost revolutionary war style in big groups facing each other. It's hard to close the distance or get into the enemy position unnoticed. I've really don't see the point in scout in this build at the moment.
Also this was funny one of my Corpmates who is a dedicated scout/shotgunner was raging and ranting really hard today on the comms about this, funny that you brought it up as well. Very true. not just for scouts but for the general tactician.  |
SoCal Ninja
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.03.17 07:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Belzeebub Santana wrote:What UP SOCAL!
Ya the blob spawns do favor the brute mentality of heavies and shock troopers and the sneaky lone style play has gotten tossed aside.
A blend of both would be best and think what most have discussed as being a better solution to what we have. Also there are talks of an orbital spawn a la Starhawk.
The initial spawn should be a team spawn but after that you have to make your way back to the team or spawn on an uplink. It should take into account nearby threats and location of enemy blob and friendly blob.
Hey man :)
I've always been a huge fan of "Spawn on Squad Leader" , because it puts a huge focus on squad unity. There is a huge potential for squad unity in this game with the commands, and various roles. But the spawn is making it so that small groups are useless, and that it's just better to have a bunch of snipers and heavies.
And Orbital Spawn would be great if you could push forward or drop equipment that allow you to increase the range available to the orbital pods. Really the key to winning in this game should always be focused on intelligently controlling spawn locations. That's how it will be when Corp battles are fully realized. |
SoCal Ninja
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.03.17 07:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
IRuby Heart wrote:Also this was funny one of my Corpmates who is a dedicated scout/shotgunner was raging and ranting really hard today on the comms about this, funny that you brought it up as well. Very true. not just for scouts but for the general tactician.
Haha, yup. I was recently staring at the stats realizing that in this style of fighting, my shield recharge speed actually doesn't mean anything because the battle is about surviving being seen by 2-4 people at a time. So Scout is really sacrificing something like 75-125 effective HP in order to gain .6-.8 movement speed. It just doesn't make sense anymore. Maybe if Scouts get a cloak like they are suppose to have, but that's going to completely unbalance the game anyway...
And I already like your teammate, we should hang out. I've been shotgun/scout forEVER....  |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
494
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Posted - 2013.03.17 07:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
It also screws over snipers and Lr users, lr to a lesser extent because it usually ends up in ar range where it still does damage but not to it's full potential. There should be a lot more space between both team's starting point, but I'd like the spawns to alternate on different maps, for insurance sometimes the teams mau be separated by where in skirmish D and C would be at (on that map that has a tabletop along with two covered objectives) while at another time A and B could separate the teams. At least enough distance to have to move before shooting an Ar. |
Deadeyes Anterie
Crimson Ravens Talons
RISE of LEGION
308
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Posted - 2013.03.17 08:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
I will wait to spawn until I can confirm the team is in a good spot in general. If you have 4-5 guys surrounded you need to wait until they die, then you can safely spawn.
Otherwise you just end up prolonging your team slaughter by adding your body to the corpse pile.
Also very nice shotgunning SoCal, you got me quite a few times tonight and I tend to be able to handle shotty users pretty well. |
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SoCal Ninja
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.03.17 08:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:
Edit: did I misread the point you were trying to make in the Op? I'm having trouble concentrating since it's pretty late where I am
You're right on a bit of it, mainly that the range created from the two blobs is very ideal for AR users. And I generally don't get much sleep either so I'm in the same boat haha :) |
SoCal Ninja
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.03.17 08:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Deadeyes Anterie wrote:I will wait to spawn until I can confirm the team is in a good spot in general. If you have 4-5 guys surrounded you need to wait until they die, then you can safely spawn.
Otherwise you just end up prolonging your team slaughter by adding your body to the corpse pile.
Also very nice shotgunning SoCal, you got me quite a few times tonight and I tend to be able to handle shotty users pretty well.
Yeah, it's just you can't bet on blue dots being intelligent and thinking past "Put my crosshairs on the red thing". And i'd like a system that doesn''t handicap experienced players by throwing them in the same location as the blue dots.
Also, thanks for the kind words. I really love shotguns and miss the old days of continually changing the way I approached the enemy in order to get more surprise kills. But it's much harder to surprise a group a 4-6 enemies... |
Soozu
5o1st
22
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Posted - 2013.03.17 08:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
Keep in mind that scouts didn't stand a chance with the old mechanics... spawning next to a heavy.
Anyway, I have one suggestion if you insist on mucking around in ambush. DropUplinks.
Soozu |
SoCal Ninja
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 21:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
Soozu wrote:Keep in mind that scouts didn't stand a chance with the old mechanics... spawning next to a heavy.
Anyway, I have one suggestion if you insist on mucking around in ambush. DropUplinks.
Soozu
At least that was spawning next to a heavy that didn't expect you, instead of spawning into a group of dying teammates with 4 ARs already trained on your position. Also, heavies during the random spawn days were a joke. But I see your point.
As for Uplinks they are great, and people should use them. But I don't think they should be the solution to this very solvable spawn issue :) |
Thog A Kuma
Planetary Response Organisation
Test Friends Please Ignore
39
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Posted - 2013.03.17 22:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
SoCal Ninja wrote:Soozu wrote:Keep in mind that scouts didn't stand a chance with the old mechanics... spawning next to a heavy.
Anyway, I have one suggestion if you insist on mucking around in ambush. DropUplinks.
Soozu At least that was spawning next to a heavy that didn't expect you, instead of spawning into a group of dying teammates with 4 ARs already trained on your position. Also, heavies during the random spawn days were a joke. But I see your point. As for Uplinks they are great, and people should use them. But I don't think they should be the solution to this very solvable spawn issue :)
Agreed that uplinks aren't a resolution to misguided mechanics, but they are totally underutilized and they are a partial solution we can control.
I propose a regional spawning system, say we draw maps into five pie shaped "Slices". the system now "Weighs" ally, squad, and enemy location (enemy supposedly is broken down by dropsuit and weapon as I recall). I propose spawns dropping anywhere in a "Slice" most adjacent to your team that does not have a preponderance of enemy "Weighting".
Obviously each map should have the slices take into account important terrain like big open "Hi Shoot Me" sniper zones (As it seems to now).
No I'm not married to Pie "Slices" but the idea is that you still can be randomly spawned into the middle of a map just as you can be out on an edge. breaking a map into Bands like yard markers on a rugby pitch would have a greater chance of continuing the perpetuation of being "stuck" in a bad position or region.
I appreciate the new spawn system in that I now almost always have a chance to live long enough to figure out where on the map I am, I go through far fewer dropsuits now. I do recognize your complaint I noted it as something that was wrong but hadn't spent any time on thinking on how the new system was forcing me to play.
Thanks, I'm glad you articulated that. |
Sextus Hardcock
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
99
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Posted - 2013.03.17 22:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
X spawn here, [] default spawn, ^ (thats a triangle) random spawn.
problem solved? |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2084
|
Posted - 2013.03.21 14:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
SoCal's back? Welcome home...
On-topic, I have to agree that the new spawn system doesn't work as intended. But the core mechanics they built the system on are good. It's the numbers behind the scenes that need tweaking.
The game assigns a value to each possible spawn location, with a positive modifier based on the number of friendlies in proximity and a negative modifier based on enemy proximity. As far as I can tell, normal friendlies and all enemies are weighted about equally, with vehicles adding to the equation on both sides. The problem with this is when they added extra value to spawning near squadmates.
Spawning near teammates is less important than spawning away from enemies, particularly when there are a lot of enemies surrounding a large group of your teammates. Enemy threat value needs to be increased to be more of a priority, and when that happens, you'll be thrown out of the major encounters rather than planted in enemy line of fire like what usually happens now. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
3182
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Posted - 2013.03.21 14:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
Imo the enemy score should be the only one. |
Pombe Geek
Red Star.
53
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Posted - 2013.03.21 14:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
Don't play ambush :)
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2084
|
Posted - 2013.03.21 15:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Imo the enemy score should be the only one.
If the enemies are all near the middle of the map, and most of your team is in one corner of the map, where do you want to spawn? Randomly anywhere there are no enemies (about 80% probability of being nowhere near anyone at all, and closer to enemies than teammates) or most likely to spawn near your teammates, but still well out of reach of most enemies?
Avoiding enemy threat should be more of a priority than having friendly support, but they need to account for both factors, imo. |
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N1ck Comeau
Planetary Response Organisation
Test Friends Please Ignore
121
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Posted - 2013.03.21 17:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
How the spawn system should work is that you each spawn on different sides of the map
The when you die you spawn from the sky from like an mcc or something and fly down to battle.
This would make ambush more fun to play and harder as well where you would need to find a spot where you couldn't get cornered or have the enemys land behind you. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2084
|
Posted - 2013.03.21 18:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
N1ck Comeau wrote:How the spawn system should work is that you each spawn on different sides of the map
The when you die you spawn from the sky from like an mcc or something and fly down to battle.
This would make ambush more fun to play and harder as well where you would need to find a spot where you couldn't get cornered or have the enemys land behind you.
That would also require a change to the falling mechanics so you have some measure of control over your fall direction.
Of course, I still want to rain down from the sky... |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1242
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Posted - 2013.03.21 19:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
Or there could be no random spawn system at all... It worked just fine in MAG. |
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