DUST Search - [IDEA] KDR based match making

LXicon wrote:

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

...but by your suggestion, the Heavy who knows nothing but point-and-shoot would be bumped into a higher-tier match while leaving the people who made him succeed stay behind as sharks in the kiddie pool.

i see nothing wrong with that.
1) the heavy will suffer in the next match unless he finds and works well with new logis.
2) the logis will not be in a "kiddie pool", they'll stay at the CCP skill rank they already have, they just won't be bumped up to go against players who are better than their skill.
3) the poor guys who went 1/15 against your logi/heavy combo will get bumped down and will have an easier game next match.

* this is for solo public matchmaking, obviously if you and the heavy were in a squad, you'll both get bumped up or have some squad average rule take effect or however CCP ranks squads in their match making.

--edit---

i'm not talking about using KDR alone for match making. i said quite clearly that the recent KDR should be used to tweak the skill based match making that CCP already uses, and only if it's obviously out of whack like going 25/0 or 0/15

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LXicon VENGEANCE FOR HIRE 58	Posted - 2013.03.13 15:47:00 - [1] - Quote i know that there is already some level of match making and that it's hard to implement while the player base is low. i searched the dev posts and found one reply that indicates that match making is based on player skill but not just skill points. i think that the player's recent KDR should be taken into consideration as well (if it's not already). if someone goes 25/0 they are obviously not well matched in that game.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 115	Posted - 2013.03.13 17:06:00 - [2] - Quote LXicon wrote: i know that there is already some level of match making and that it's hard to implement while the player base is low. i searched the dev posts and found one reply that indicates that match making is based on player skill but not just skill points. i think that the player's recent KDR should be taken into consideration as well (if it's not already). if someone goes 25/0 they are obviously not well matched in that game. Personally, this sounds like a terrible idea to me. Shouldn't a sniper have an abnormally high kdr for a match? Or a tanker? I believe kdr is a meaningless stat in a team based game such as dust. The stat shouldn't be used for anything. Really, it ought to be removed.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2024	Posted - 2013.03.13 17:31:00 - [3] - Quote I've had a recent Ambush match where I was the highest WP earning player with 0 kills. And while I got 0 kills, I was a MAJOR asset to my team. I was responsible for more saved lives on my team than my death count, and while there were a handful of moments where I pulled my SMG to take potshots at someone just so I could collect an Assist, I spent more time with my Repair Tool out than anything else.
LXicon VENGEANCE FOR HIRE 58	Posted - 2013.03.13 18:13:00 - [4] - Quote @Buster Friently : snipers and tanks tend to have higher KDRs but when someone complains that snipers or tanks are OP the general response is that if you are good you should be able to deal with snipers or tanks. if you are playing with people who are as good as you, you shouldn't have 25%-30% of all the kills on your team. @Garrett Blacknova : i'm a logi as well and i'm not talking about ranking a 7/2 player above a 0/4 player. i'm talking about players who clearly outclassed the rest of the game. you can probably determine this by targeting players who have 25+ more kills than deaths or who have 15+ more deaths than kills. there already is match making. this is not a yes/no vote on the idea of matchmaking, but a way to fine tune the match making they already have. lets say (for the sake of argument) that a given player gets a CCP generated Skill Rank of 5 based on whatever criteria they currently use, and that CCP tires to put players together that are within 1 Skill Rank. Shouldn't someone who went 30/2 in the last game at Skill Rank 5 be bumped up to Skill Rank 6? --edit-- wouldn't you like to see all the people who consistently dominate in pub stomps end up playing each other? wouldn't the people who complain that redlining a team is boring like to find themselves up against worthy competition?
Knarf Black Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 459	Posted - 2013.03.13 18:36:00 - [5] - Quote I hate to say it, but matchmaking will probably never work well in Dust. There are far too many variables to balance. I do like the idea of stat padding snipers constantly going up against high end corps, though.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2025	Posted - 2013.03.13 18:57:00 - [6] - Quote LXicon wrote: @Garrett Blacknova : i'm a logi as well and i'm not talking about ranking a 7/2 player above a 0/4 player. i'm talking about players who clearly outclassed the rest of the game. you can probably determine this by targeting players who have 25+ more kills than deaths or who have 15+ more deaths than kills. there already is match making. this is not a yes/no vote on the idea of matchmaking, but a way to fine tune the match making they already have. And my point is that you can potentially single-handedly carry your team WITHOUT a high (or even decent-looking) K/D. I've had times where, because of intelligent placement of Uplinks and Nanohives, I've turned a match from a one-sided rout of the team I joined into a victory for the team. I've seen times where a decent - not great - Heavy has been given a 25/2 or better game because he had a team of Logis keeping him alive. The Logis all went 0 or 1 kill with 5 deaths, and they were the ones really responsible for the team win, but by your suggestion, the Heavy who knows nothing but point-and-shoot would be bumped into a higher-tier match while leaving the people who made him succeed stay behind as sharks in the kiddie pool.
Martin0 Brancaleone Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 196	Posted - 2013.03.13 18:59:00 - [7] - Quote With your (stupid) idea most of logi player and dropship/lav pilots will be confined with noobs, while failsnipers and tankers will (try) to kill each others...
Tyrin Tonious Wraith Shadow Guards 5	Posted - 2013.03.13 19:09:00 - [8] - Quote @Garrent I agree with everything @OP A game like this really can't rely on KDR as a way to provide matchmaking, all you'd really get are guys with guns more than likely camping with a sniper or from last match someone running Proto. In the coming updates I think I've seen somewhere that they have more balancing ideas that will be set in place. But with the way DUST is, balancing match making is going to be difficult, like Knarf said, Dust has way, just way too many variables, from WP to SP to KDR to Skills Book Levels. To me in Dust, WP is the most important thing, but I'm pretty sure just kills alone isn't going to get your WP up, you'd have to hack, rep, and rearm your way through the WP. Soon enough in later updates, you'll be more WP for almost every action that there isn't WP gains for atm and some will be getting a boost.
LXicon VENGEANCE FOR HIRE 59	Posted - 2013.03.13 19:15:00 - [9] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: ...but by your suggestion, the Heavy who knows nothing but point-and-shoot would be bumped into a higher-tier match while leaving the people who made him succeed stay behind as sharks in the kiddie pool. i see nothing wrong with that. 1) the heavy will suffer in the next match unless he finds and works well with new logis. 2) the logis will not be in a "kiddie pool", they'll stay at the CCP skill rank they already have, they just won't be bumped up to go against players who are better than their skill. 3) the poor guys who went 1/15 against your logi/heavy combo will get bumped down and will have an easier game next match. * this is for solo public matchmaking, obviously if you and the heavy were in a squad, you'll both get bumped up or have some squad average rule take effect or however CCP ranks squads in their match making. --edit--- i'm not talking about using KDR alone for match making. i said quiet clearly that the recent KDR should be used to tweak the skill based match making that CCP already uses, and only if it's obviously out of whack like going 25/0 or 0/15
Tyrin Tonious Wraith Shadow Guards 6	Posted - 2013.03.13 19:45:00 - [10] - Quote LXicon wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: ...but by your suggestion, the Heavy who knows nothing but point-and-shoot would be bumped into a higher-tier match while leaving the people who made him succeed stay behind as sharks in the kiddie pool. i see nothing wrong with that. 1) the heavy will suffer in the next match unless he finds and works well with new logis. 2) the logis will not be in a "kiddie pool", they'll stay at the CCP skill rank they already have, they just won't be bumped up to go against players who are better than their skill. 3) the poor guys who went 1/15 against your logi/heavy combo will get bumped down and will have an easier game next match. * this is for solo public matchmaking, obviously if you and the heavy were in a squad, you'll both get bumped up or have some squad average rule take effect or however CCP ranks squads in their match making. --edit--- i'm not talking about using KDR alone for match making. i said quite clearly that the recent KDR should be used to tweak the skill based match making that CCP already uses, and only if it's obviously out of whack like going 25/0 or 0/15 What if the 0/15 with a high WP was the reason the 25/0 got the KD, should the 0/15 be paired with the same people as the 25/0 in the next match?

Banjo Hero BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire 53	Posted - 2013.03.13 20:24:00 - [11] - Quote I'm of two minds here. Well, one and a half, anyway. On the one hand, there's the tank drivers who come in with a gajillion ISK worth of "kitten YOU, newb!" and just run roughshod over everyone, or the tankers who hide in Redzonistan and kill suckers and their installations and vehicles with their railgun at little or no risk. I don't like that, myself, probably because I tend to end up on the hot-lead-eating end of that equation, and part of me wouldn't mind not seeing that as much. On the other, there's the heavy that lands a K/D of 64/4 or whatever. I know I can't speak to the issue of every last instance of this, but the few times I've seen this from the perspective of that heavy's teammate, it's been because he's had a Logi (or two) supporting him. So, it's kind of like the heavy didn't get 64-4, the heavy+logi duo did. So, filtering him out of the matchmaking would be functionally nerfing teamwork. And, of course, somewhere in the middle is the sniper who posts 25-0. I don't, like, track this, but it seems to me that they turn up on both the winning and losing sides with at least roughly comparable frequency.
LXicon VENGEANCE FOR HIRE 59	Posted - 2013.03.13 21:57:00 - [12] - Quote Tyrin Tonious wrote: What if the 0/15 with a high WP was the reason the 25/0 got the KD, should the 0/15 be paired with the same people as the 25/0 in the next match? if they are in the same squad then they'll play together in the next match regardless. that's a moot point. if they weren't in the same squad, then the 25/0 guy would get bumped up on his next match and the 0/15 would get bumped down. those examples were at the limit of what i proposed would be the "out-classed" KDR. if they were 24/0 and 0/14 or anywhere in between then nothing would happen.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 115	Posted - 2013.03.13 23:27:00 - [13] - Quote Kdr is worthless as a tool to measure. .. Well, much of anything in a team based game such as dust.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 818	Posted - 2013.03.14 00:02:00 - [14] - Quote LXicon wrote: i know that there is already some level of match making and that it's hard to implement while the player base is low. i searched the dev posts and found one reply that indicates that match making is based on player skill but not just skill points. i think that the player's recent KDR should be taken into consideration as well (if it's not already). if someone goes 25/0 they are obviously not well matched in that game. The concept is too vague neglecting many variables and falling short of defining needed terms. What is "recently" and is that assessed based on most recent matches played, a real world timer, a SP total segment? What about squads do they simply get averaged together, how are preformed squads addressed? What is the rating applied to support classes? If a Logi goes 0/7 3000 WP and revives 12 people should that player really be matched against an assault/sniper/heavy who goes 0/7? Dropship pilots/vehicle crews, one of the most effective things on the field is a well coordinated vehicle squad, but only one among them will earn any given kill. In what way would the OP account for this? System is easily "gamed", want to be in the "Rookie bracket" just get revived and killed over and over in a single game then soak up the SP/ISK as your KDR places you against raw recruits in your proto gear. I agree more matchmaking is a very desirable feature, however KDR is already vague and bad even as a stat, making it part of the basis for matchmaking only compounds the problem. 0.02 ISK Cross
LXicon VENGEANCE FOR HIRE 59	Posted - 2013.03.14 05:50:00 - [15] - Quote @Cross Atu : yes, it is vague, it's just an idea. i didn't want to plan out an entire implementation, but if you want one, here is one fleshed out implementation: the general idea is to use the KDR from the last game in which CCP had already given you a "skill rank" to tweak that rank if it proved to be wrong. lets say that CCP gives you a rank of 0-9 based on your skill. i don't know how CCP is doing it right now, but they ARE doing some form of matchmaking based on "skill". we'll assume (for this example) that it's a socre of 0-9. if you have a rank of 7 you can get into a match with people who are +/- 1 compared to you. if there are not enough players it widens the +/- value until it gets a match. if you dominated (25 more kills than deaths) or were crushed (15 more deaths than kills) in the last game that CCP said you were a 7 then you get bumped up or down 1 in "skill rank" for the next game. if you were middle of the road then your "skill rank" adjustment is 0. you stay at whatever skill rank CCP decided you were based on whatever they already do. * existing squads would be calculated however CCP is currently calculating squad vs solo matchmaking. either average or max or min or whatever. i don't know. -- -- as for your questions: 1) What is "recently"? -- the last game that you were assigned a "skill rank" for public matchmaking. 2) What is the rating applied to support classes? -- the same for all, if we want a WP tweak in addition to a KDR tweak, that is separate. ** i'm all for a similar WP tweak in addition to a KDR tweak, but that's beside this implementation. 3) Dropship pilots/vehicle crews,? -- you already have a "skill rank" assigned by CCP, you just wouldn't ge bumped up or down. you'd stay with the rest of the players in your skill rank range. 4 System is easily "gamed"... -- every system can be gamed, but since your existing "skill rank" is already determined by CCP you can only get bumped up or down by 1. you won't end up with new players if you purposely go 0/15 and you won't end up with the elite if you luck out and go 25/0. -- -- i think people are objecting this IDEA because they think it will affect them. MOST people would not be affected. in any given game of 32 people there might be 10% who got 25 more kills than deaths and 5%-10% who had 15 more deaths than kills. the only effect for 80%-85% of the players in a given game is that the players who DOMINATED them last game and the players who went WAY negative last game are less likely to play with them in the next game. what you are left with is more players of similar performance playing each other.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 117	Posted - 2013.03.14 06:29:00 - [16] - Quote Well, I'm rejecting the idea not because I think it will affect me, but because I think the idea is without merit. Kdr means nothing in a game like this. Dust has many roles, and will have more, and the kdr associated with those roles varies to the point of meaninglessness. Kdr is a bad metric to base much on. Besides that, kdr isn't even accurate for anyone playing skirmish. I don't see how throwing in an inaccurate and arbitrary metric into the matchmaking system will help. At all.


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