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Citrutex
The High and Mighty
76
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Posted - 2013.03.08 21:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tanks aren't broken, only their ability to run into the redline risk free is. Why does this continue to be a valid tactic?
In eve we have points, webs, and aggression timers. Dust currently has none of these things. The damage to kill advanced tanks before they run into the redline isn't there, even with advanced AV, and when working as a squad.
Historically, in eve, cheap, low sp things have always been able to kill expensive stuff. Risk aversion has always been a part of new eden, and there is nothing wrong with that. However there was something wrong with supers being able to logskii to avoid destruction, it was solved with new logoff aggression mechanics. What can be done with tanks? Tanks are dangerously close to being no different than supers; 'the best way to kill a super is with more supers' and i'm sure we can all agree that is a poor solution to the perceived problem.
It's easy enough to scare them off the battlefield. Show me a reliable way to kill them and i'll be the first to say tanks are fine.
Possible solutions -
Commitment:
There have been talks of siege modules, when are we going to see them?
Once you leave 'your' redline, you probably shouldn't be able to return to it without the same 20 second timer.
Interdiction:
I've said it before and i'll say it again. Web grenades.
Ewar/Neutralization:
Give us the ability to do something about their active modules, tanks that have committed with a siege module should probably be immune to these effects.
Performance flattening:
We've seen the glorious things that came with the tierification and the new t1 cruisers/frigates, cheap tanks are underpowered, and dropships lack DPS/alpha.
A flying 'glass av cannon' (Destroyers, stealth bombers, tier 3 battlecruisers etc) or similar solution could be nice.
The current orbital bombardment system isn't all that great and does a poor job of being a reliable counter to tanks.
inb4 tankers qq about how they invested sp and should be rewarded with a near unkillable vehicle.
New Eden is a better place when everything explodes on a regular basis. |
Mr Zitro
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
436
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Posted - 2013.03.08 21:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Please don't post I felt stupider after reading this. Until you have played as a tank and know what's its like to no infantry support and the opposite team has heavy av, please go into the redline for 60 second or jump out of the MCC with no dampener
And till snipers and all infantry have to get out of their redline just stop posting |
Galthur
CrimeWave Syndicate
26
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Posted - 2013.03.08 21:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tanks don't kill clones, clones kill clones
Don't touch mah tank |
Citrutex
The High and Mighty
77
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Posted - 2013.03.08 21:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mr Zitro wrote:And till snipers and all infantry have to get out of their redline just stop posting
Please stop posting if you haven't read the op. |
iceyburnz
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
307
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Posted - 2013.03.08 21:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Galthur wrote:Tanks don't kill clones, clones kill clones
Don't touch mah tank
(joke )
Tanks don't kill people, rappers do... |
Mr Zitro
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
436
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Posted - 2013.03.08 21:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Citrutex wrote:Mr Zitro wrote:And till snipers and all infantry have to get out of their redline just stop posting Please stop posting if you haven't read the op.
Honestly I only read like a forth not even that and thought you were a complete idiot. |
Citrutex
The High and Mighty
77
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Posted - 2013.03.08 21:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mr Zitro wrote:Honestly I only read like a forth not even that and thought you were a complete idiot.
Ignorance is bliss, isn't it? |
Alderstaz
Mannar Focused Warfare
Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2013.03.08 21:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Citrutex wrote:Mr Zitro wrote:And till snipers and all infantry have to get out of their redline just stop posting Please stop posting if you haven't read the op.
How about we give all infantry free AV so they can effectively attack 100% of all targets and not be immune to 90% of players.
Edit: I'm not saying good HAV players don't require skill. But even a heavy drop suit has negatives for its strengths, HAVs do not. All the penalties are on infantry AV side. |
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe
Planetary Response Organisation
Test Friends Please Ignore
134
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Posted - 2013.03.08 21:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Citrutex wrote:The damage to kill advanced tanks before they run into the redline isn't there, even with advanced AV, and when working as a squad.
Let's assume three heavies with militia forge guns and no invested SP against a 10k shield Gunnlogi
1200 damage/shot * 3 shots/volley = 3600 damage/volley
3600 damage/volley / 3.5 seconds per volley = ~1028 damage/second
10,000 damage / 1028 damage/second = ~ 10 seconds.
Using more discrete terms, it's 10.5 seconds. 10.5 seconds to blap a full health HAV without investing any SP and basically no invested isk. If you do go for advanced forges those three heavies can do it in six seconds. Since forge guns have a 300m range you can do that from basically anywhere, without exposing yourself to much enemy infantry fire.
So yeah, you're right. There's no way, even with teamwork and advanced AV, to kill a HAV.
|
Alderstaz
Mannar Focused Warfare
Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2013.03.08 21:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe wrote:Citrutex wrote:The damage to kill advanced tanks before they run into the redline isn't there, even with advanced AV, and when working as a squad. Let's assume three heavies with militia forge guns and no invested SP against a 10k shield Gunnlogi 1200 damage/shot * 3 shots/volley = 3600 damage/volley 3600 damage/volley / 3.5 seconds per volley = ~1028 damage/second 10,000 damage / 1028 damage/second = ~ 10 seconds. Using more discrete terms, it's 10.5 seconds. 10.5 seconds to blap a full health HAV without investing any SP and basically no invested isk. If you do go for advanced forges those three heavies can do it in six seconds. Since forge guns have a 300m range you can do that from basically anywhere, without exposing yourself to much enemy infantry fire. So yeah, you're right. There's no way, even with teamwork and advanced AV, to kill a HAV.
How did the three magical infantry AV appear at same time? :D
Almost half corp squad are warmers. That was easy. Only cost 3 clones and the tanker just jumped out and killed them for 3 more clones. Well worth the risk for that win. |
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Vin Vicious
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
28
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Posted - 2013.03.08 21:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
apparently tank drivers feel that seeing they're in a 500k+ tank they should be able to go head first into a redberry squad all while taking on multiple AV players and come out on top.
dont believe me? read some of the "nerf AV" threads. |
Citrutex
The High and Mighty
78
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Posted - 2013.03.08 21:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe wrote:Let's assume three heavies with militia forge guns and no invested SP against a 10k shield Gunnlogi
Theroycrafting is nice, but your math is wrong, rarely does it work out as it should on paper.
On more than one occasion, i have had a droplink scout with av grenades providing (two or even three) optimal places for 3 forge gun buddies to spawn; tanks almost always get out of the line of fire before a second volley can even happen, and into the redline shortly thereafter to lick their wounds. Good luck holding him still for 3 volleys from 3 forge guns.
If the scout can get within a few meters of the tank, he should be able to apply webbing of some sort.
Tanks are not broken, only their ability to run away is |
Takahiro Kashuken
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
124
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Posted - 2013.03.08 21:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Citrutex wrote:The damage to kill advanced tanks before they run into the redline isn't there, even with advanced AV, and when working as a squad.
HAHAHA
You must really fail then, its never been so easy for tank killing |
Citrutex
The High and Mighty
78
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Posted - 2013.03.08 21:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:its never been so easy for tank killing
Please show me a l33t youtube montage killing 10-15k+ ehp tanks and i'll believe you. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
124
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Posted - 2013.03.08 22:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Citrutex wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:its never been so easy for tank killing Please show me a l33t youtube montage killing 10-15k+ ehp tanks and i'll believe you.
lol
Nice excuse but you should know no one runs adv tanks out in skirmish, unless its a sagaris with a rail ontop of that hill which ive also solo'd
You aint a tank driver and you have never used AV, maybe you should stop posting |
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe
Planetary Response Organisation
Test Friends Please Ignore
135
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Posted - 2013.03.08 22:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vin Vicious wrote:apparently tank drivers feel that seeing they're in a 500k+ tank they should be able to go head first into a redberry squad all while taking on multiple AV players and come out on top.
dont believe me? read some of the "nerf AV" threads.
EDIT: nvm just see the post two above me, some guy feels a heavy suit, that moves a quarter the speed of a Logi player carrying a forge gun should stand no chance vs a tank, that moves near the speed of an LAV, has near infinite range, 100% visibility, HAS THIRD PERSON VIEW, so he can see everything around him. two guns angled all around him so he has no blind spot. and has the hitpoints of a BATTLECRUISER.
My only take-away from this is that you really need to work on how you fit your BCs.  |
Vin Vicious
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
30
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Posted - 2013.03.08 22:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe wrote:Vin Vicious wrote:apparently tank drivers feel that seeing they're in a 500k+ tank they should be able to go head first into a redberry squad all while taking on multiple AV players and come out on top.
dont believe me? read some of the "nerf AV" threads.
EDIT: nvm just see the post two above me, some guy feels a heavy suit, that moves a quarter the speed of a Logi player carrying a forge gun should stand no chance vs a tank, that moves near the speed of an LAV, has near infinite range, 100% visibility, HAS THIRD PERSON VIEW, so he can see everything around him. two guns angled all around him so he has no blind spot. and has the hitpoints of a BATTLECRUISER. My only take-away from this is that you really need to work on how you fit your BCs.
talking about a base BC |
Swedish Murder Machine
BurgezzE.T.F
Orion Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.03.09 01:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
Not sure if trolling or retreaded... Have you ever been on the receiving side of assault forge guns, scattermind swarms, or packed av nades or OBs? If you can't kill a tank, I think we can all agree your pretty fail. Sure I don't die every game I play, However I do get killed, either by me playing poorly or fighting skilled AV. Also to that point, I rarely run positively on isk. HAVs costs money, AV nades don't. For some of us who have been playing for a long time, its not this OP tank that's making us do well, rather the experience in knowing our limitations. What does it cost to skill into a proto Swarm? 500k SP? So for 500K sp vs my 5 mil, You are effectively the bane of my existence and I will turn tail and run from you. Not to mention i'm pretty sure i've been 2-3 hit by a scout with packed av nades. Sounds to me like your just bad.
PS most tanks run 1 mil + in isk, also I don't think any skilled HAV player runs head first into the enemy team, gets face rolled by av nades and other av spam and complains about their poor life choice by yelling nerf AV. |
Beld Errmon
UnReaL.
505
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Posted - 2013.03.09 01:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Yeah Im guessing the OP never sees when the tankers 1mil isk baby gets hunted relentlessly by a squad of players with AUR swarms and if he manages to survive against a dedicated AV squad long enough they'll wait till he stops somewhere and drop an orbital on him. |
Swedish Murder Machine
BurgezzE.T.F
Orion Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.03.09 01:22:00 -
[20] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:Yeah Im guessing the OP never sees when the tankers 1mil isk baby gets hunted relentlessly by a squad of players with AUR swarms and if he manages to survive against a dedicated AV squad long enough they'll wait till he stops somewhere and drop an orbital on him.
+1 |
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Philipp Achtel
Immobile Infantry
10
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Posted - 2013.03.09 01:44:00 -
[21] - Quote
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe wrote:Citrutex wrote:The damage to kill advanced tanks before they run into the redline isn't there, even with advanced AV, and when working as a squad. Let's assume three heavies with militia forge guns and no invested SP against a 10k shield Gunnlogi 1200 damage/shot * 3 shots/volley = 3600 damage/volley 3600 damage/volley / 3.5 seconds per volley = ~1028 damage/second 10,000 damage / 1028 damage/second = ~ 10 seconds. Using more discrete terms, it's 10.5 seconds. 10.5 seconds to blap a full health HAV without investing any SP and basically no invested isk. If you do go for advanced forges those three heavies can do it in six seconds. Since forge guns have a 300m range you can do that from basically anywhere, without exposing yourself to much enemy infantry fire. So yeah, you're right. There's no way, even with teamwork and advanced AV, to kill a HAV.
Tanks get destroyed in less than 10 seconds all the time, right here on planet Earth.
Why is it that tankers feel that tanks should be so indestructible? It simply boggles my mind. |
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe
Planetary Response Organisation
Test Friends Please Ignore
137
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 01:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
I didn't say the current balance was bad. I was pointing out that what he claimed was impossible to perform with high quality equipment could be done in ten seconds with low quality equipment. My only complaint about forge guns is their ridiculous sniper rifle-esque range. But then I hate sniper rifles, too, so I may just be biased in that regard. |
knight of 6
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
80
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Posted - 2013.03.09 02:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Vin Vicious wrote:apparently tank drivers feel that seeing they're in a 500k+ tank they should be able to go head first into a redberry squad all while taking on multiple AV players and come out on top.
dont believe me? read some of the "nerf AV" threads.
EDIT: nvm just see the post two above me, some guy feels a heavy suit, that moves a quarter the speed of a Logi player carrying a forge gun should stand no chance vs a tank, that moves near the speed of an LAV, has near infinite range, 100% visibility, HAS THIRD PERSON VIEW, so he can see everything around him. two guns angled all around him so he has no blind spot. and has the hitpoints of a BATTLECRUISER.
i take it you don't drive a tank then? I don't believe i should be a god at all.
i do however think that destroying 500k isks worth of mats before my tank gets blowed up should be an option. i believe that tanks should put the fear of god into the unlucky redberry on the other end of my gun. i believe that all carrier paths should offer at least a 20-30% profit margin, whether tanking, AV, dropships, logi's, scouts, or assaults. I believe that an amount of effort equal to mine should be required to remove my tank, whether thatGÇÖs organizing an AV squad or skilling into a kick ass forgegun.
I do not believe in redlineing my tank (and i don't do it). i don't believe that a tank should be an "I WIN" button. i don't believe that tanks should be able to survive without infantry support.
all that said, tanks cut through infantry it's what they do. quit shooting my tank with assault rifles if you don't want to die.
I LOVE THE IDEA OF WEB GRENADES! seriously cool.the idea of the redline is to keep out spawn camping not to camp behind.
ideas: tweek the speed of shield tanks
web grenades :)))
put a 5 minute timer on the redline. |
Beld Errmon
UnReaL.
507
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Posted - 2013.03.09 02:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
Philipp Achtel wrote:
Tanks get destroyed in less than 10 seconds all the time, right here on planet Earth.
Why is it that tankers feel that tanks should be so indestructible? It simply boggles my mind.
It boggles my mind that people like to play the realism card in a futuristic game, being immortal isn't after all realistic.
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Purple Creeper
Onslaught Inc
12
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Posted - 2013.03.09 03:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
I notice people with AV nades behind total cover throw these things and its ridiculous, even more so with nanohives. Before you even realize it 2-3 land all in one spot next to you, magnetically (so I guess) move and stick to your tank, and finally do absurd damage. I've seen this, and maybe it was a glitch or just lag, but I hate them with a passion. At least take away auto aim, because armor tanks suffer the most from AV nades. Theyre too slow to get away and have 0% resistance to their massive effectiveness boost. |
slap26
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
491
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Posted - 2013.03.09 03:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
Let my shields recharge like an infantry guys and they you can complain |
icdedppul
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
0
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Posted - 2013.03.09 03:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
those of you that complain about 3 AV grenades killing or severly hurting your tank can stop reading now cause the following doesnt apply to you
so as annoying as it is watching the tank roll away yet again to hide and recharge/repair whats more annoying is we just spent the majority of the match trying to kill it (nothing like blowing up millions of isk) we died(sometimes alot.. nothing like running scout swarms) because lets face it organizing the squad for enough AV means we can no longer fight the infantry and where was our reward? we get absolutely nothing for it as the tank hides...
in the mean time the tank has been killing our blue dots and while not having his 40 and 0 match still went something ridiculous
extend the redline timer, i want the ability to chase the bloody thing
EDIT:
I hate all redline BS but atleast snipers you can counter snipe.. we cant hit the things with enough AV before it runs and hides again to actually have a chance of killing it |
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
324
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Posted - 2013.03.09 04:19:00 -
[28] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:Yeah Im guessing the OP never sees when the tankers 1mil isk baby gets hunted relentlessly by a squad of players with AUR swarms and if he manages to survive against a dedicated AV squad long enough they'll wait till he stops somewhere and drop an orbital on him.
Hmm, this has a familiar ring to it. |
Lizz Bienn
The Minmatards
0
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Posted - 2013.03.09 04:57:00 -
[29] - Quote
Mr Zitro wrote:Please don't post I felt stupider after reading this. Until you have played as a tank and know what its like to have no infantry support and the opposite team has heavy av, please go into the redline for 60 second or jump out of the MCC with no dampener
And till snipers and all infantry have to get out of their redline just stop posting
so your argument is: ppl r shooting me i need to hide... im trying to think of a word for you that ist vulgar. let just say female dog
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