DUST Search - Shield Extenders + Drawback

Winsaucerer wrote:

Aeon Amadi wrote:

One previously mentioned idea was to apply a penalty to scan profile when using Shield Extenders, which to me sounds like a really good idea as it sort of forces you to take into account the drawbacks when you fit your suit - just like armor plating.

I am *very* worried about this being implemented. I play a stealthy scout -- idea being I can get behind and around enemies to capture points and bring us back in the game. I *cannot* armour tank when playing this role. Scout suit CPU is tight, so one low slot is used for a cpu enhancer, and the other slot for a sensor damp. When I can finally fit more, I have plans for two low-slot items related to stealth, leaving one slot for armour *if* I can fit it on (on a proto suit).

I am pretty much resigned to using shield. But if shields increase my scan profile, then I'm giving up my stealth to play the stealth role, and that just doesn't make sense. It leaves the frontline get-behind-enemy-lines scout with no defences...maybe a token shield or armour, but otherwise very weak.

So *if* this was going to be implemented, then I highly recommend CCP take a look at this particular scout role and see how it is supposed to defend itself.

One way to get around this would be a scout suit role bonus -- no scan profile penalty from shield enhancers.

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Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1038	Posted - 2013.03.02 19:09:00 - [1] - Quote Whether or not stacking penalties actually apply doesn't really matter (albeit it might make the problem even worse) but there's a significant imbalance in the Shields vs Armor matter, just like there had been in Eve Online until CCP Fozzie sat down and noticed the obvious things that everyone else knew for years. Some quick facts: Armor plating has a higher EHP than shield extenders but it comes with a mass penalty, slowing you down. Shields passively recharge regardless of whether or not you have rechargers/regulators to speed up that process. Armor Repairers are insanely slow (try fitting them on a Heavy) and don't really help you all that much in the short term (the actual combat). So, if we take a look at how these things apply in-game it winds up being this: Armor Tankers can fit plating/repairers and... well, nothing else. They can also fit Damage Modifiers -or- double up on their EHP and stack some shield modules on themselves to increase their tanking capabilities. This isn't usually the best idea for some suits, like the Heavy (type-I) since they don't have that much shielding anyway, albeit the same can be said for their armor tanking being as they only have one low-powered slot. Shield Tankers on the other hand can fit EWAR (contrasted from Eve Online's style) and Speed Modules. You can give a boost to your EHP/recharge capabilities and fit Sensor Dampeners... Scan Amplifiers... Code Breakers or speed modules to make for a very agile and/or very stealthy/precise soldier. With absolutely no drawbacks to using Shield Modules it's pretty obvious that it's a logical choice, especially for Heavy Type-II's who have higher shields (and more mobility, however miniscule) and Assault Type-II's who's sole specialization is Shield Tanking. If you take a look at Eve Online, it's balanced out so that armor/damage modules go in the low slots and shield/EWAR/speed modules go in the mid slots. This forces Armor Tankers to take up Speed to buffer out their drawbacks, but they usually can deal enough damage to suffice anyway. Shield Tankers can fit up on Damage Modules but they lack a lot of capability of holding down the target if they want to keep a high EHP. So essentially it's all balanced out just by how much survivability you want over how badly you want to kill people. One previously mentioned idea was to apply a penalty to scan profile when using Shield Extenders, which to me sounds like a really good idea as it sort of forces you to take into account the drawbacks when you fit your suit - just like armor plating. Now, I didn't really want to get into it but unfortunately I'm going to, but with the current impact of Stacking Penalties (whether or not they're actually applying remains the common myth) we might be noticing a -major- issue with the Shield vs Armor conundrum. Armor Plating has a passive penalty, as you take a hit to your mass (thereby you're movement) however with Shields there is no passive penalty; so if stacking penalties aren't applying you're able to essentially put in as much HP increases as you physically can fit with absolutely no drawbacks to doing so. Obviously, this needs to be fixed if they aren't actually applying as it makes for an imbalance in gameplay. On one hand we have increased shields by 22 or increased armor by 40 with a -3% mass penalty incurred. Multiply that each time you add an additional module and you'll notice a pretty big difference in gameplay. In a first person shooter, speed is power - the slower you move the easier of a target you are. It's technically supposed to be balanced but without drawbacks, shield modules are king simply due to their raw HP increases and fast recharge capabilities.
Technical-Support Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 18	Posted - 2013.03.02 19:13:00 - [2] - Quote popped a flux grenade i'm sweatin
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 298	Posted - 2013.03.02 19:16:00 - [3] - Quote Drawback is that I can't use damage modifiers, and battles against fellow shielders is a pain in the ass. Though shield stacking is better than damage stacking anyway.
54rffv FrontLine-Coalition 0	Posted - 2013.03.02 19:18:00 - [4] - Quote Technical-Support wrote: popped a flux grenade i'm sweatin Yeah is there anything that can drop your entire armor set like a flux does to 400+ sheilds. Whats the counter to the flux? You are failing to mention that key in the equasion.
crazy space 1 ZionTCD Legacy Rising 898	Posted - 2013.03.02 19:35:00 - [5] - Quote shields increase your sig radius making you pop up on the map more easily
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 366	Posted - 2013.03.02 19:35:00 - [6] - Quote I don't think stacking penalties are a myth as they seem to work for everything except what the fitting screen lists for Damage Modifiers. And I was also under the impression that your sig radius was already being modified depending on the amount of shields you have. The Type-II Assault suit should have a larger profile than the Type-I with the same skills. Too bad those numbers aren't listed in the game yet.
crazy space 1 ZionTCD Legacy Rising 898	Posted - 2013.03.02 19:35:00 - [7] - Quote 54rffv wrote: Technical-Support wrote: popped a flux grenade i'm sweatin Yeah is there anything that can drop your entire armor set like a flux does to 400+ sheilds. Whats the counter to the flux? You are failing to mention that key in the equasion. the counter is armor tanking
Logi Bro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 836	Posted - 2013.03.02 19:41:00 - [8] - Quote Well, like you said yourself, armor has more EHP plus the individual armor mods increase your armor more than individual shield mods. Militia armor plate= roughly 40 (don't have exact numbers on me) Militia shield extender= 22 HP So not only does the armor plate award 18 more HP, it also has a higher EHP, which is why armor tanking is perfectly valid. I have played this game since Replication and this is the first time I've heard the "shield extenders are OP" argument.
Sobriety Denied Universal Allies Inc. 461	Posted - 2013.03.02 19:48:00 - [9] - Quote 54rffv wrote: Technical-Support wrote: popped a flux grenade i'm sweatin Yeah is there anything that can drop your entire armor set like a flux does to 400+ sheilds. Whats the counter to the flux? You are failing to mention that key in the equasion. run back up armor plates and laugh when the fluxer gets that WTF-this-didnt-work look on his face
Veritas Vitae Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 36	Posted - 2013.03.02 19:53:00 - [10] - Quote Also note, a logi can repair your armor, but not your shields, with a repair tool. So, shields have passive regen, delay time, and better repair speed. Armor has slower repair requiring modules, but can be remote repaired, and sacrifices movement speed for nearly double the EHP boost that shields give.

Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 275	Posted - 2013.03.02 20:02:00 - [11] - Quote Triage only hive, rep tools, combo hives, armor rep modules(okay they suck but still); unaffected by flux which at the std level 1 can wipe out a fully specced 4x com SE +lvl 5 shield control shield tank in one nade(through walls; unlike anyother grenades); lazer lol shield tanks; EVE LR lol everything. Armor tanking has a movement penalty for a higher tank(thats cause armor tanks should be stationary camping defender not offensive fast movers). The system works just not the way you like. Though you do make a good point of the loss of mid slots from eve to dust in an effort to oversimplify but that means a whole rework of the fits and cpu/pg for the game. Plus for an FPS i think its better not to have so many module varieties the primary health buff vs primary dmg buff are on one side (high) and the movement vs tank buff vs specialty mods are on low side. (It may suck for heavies but for everyone else it works). And heavies get a crapton of HP to compensate.
Icy Tiger Universal Allies Inc. 1033	Posted - 2013.03.02 20:09:00 - [12] - Quote This is pretty balanced actually, one of the few things in the game that make Dust what it is. Shields also get cut down by a Laser, while Armor is destroyed by a mass driver.
RHYTHMIK Designs BetaMax. 52	Posted - 2013.03.02 21:11:00 - [13] - Quote Armor Plates + Kinetic Catalyzer.....that is all :-) Edit: At least for sprinting. That's why CCP should make catalyzer increase not just sprinting but base movement speed as well.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2311	Posted - 2013.03.02 21:46:00 - [14] - Quote Technical-Support wrote: popped a flux grenade i'm sweatin WOOO!!!
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 465	Posted - 2013.03.02 22:07:00 - [15] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Armor plating has a higher EHP than shield extenders but it comes with a mass penalty, slowing you down. To be fair, you also must include how armor plating is less PG/CPU intensive as well (at least on dropsuits). I pump basic plates and a repper on my Scout and I'm still pumping a sprint at 7.6 m/s while wearing 65 more HP, not including the shield extenders that are also on there.
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 307	Posted - 2013.03.02 22:35:00 - [16] - Quote Laser is definitely the most insane thing to be used against shield tankers. My 425 shields go down faster against a decently speced LR than going up against a Balac with 4 complex damage mods, weaponry to lvl 5, proficiency to level 5, and is landing 100% headshots. It is just lol ridiculous how beast a LR is against shields. I bet my health bar actually drops faster than the animation can show (which would make sense based on how fast it appears to eat my armor up too).
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 445	Posted - 2013.03.02 22:44:00 - [17] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: Laser is definitely the most insane thing to be used against shield tankers. My 425 shields go down faster against a decently speced LR than going up against a Balac with 4 complex damage mods, weaponry to lvl 5, proficiency to level 5, and is landing 100% headshots. It is just lol ridiculous how beast a LR is against shields. I bet my health bar actually drops faster than the animation can show (which would make sense based on how fast it appears to eat my armor up too). You've gotta love the increased damage over time, it's a shame though that every time you get caught in CQ you end up having a panic attack.
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 307	Posted - 2013.03.02 23:19:00 - [18] - Quote gbghg wrote: DJINN leukoplast wrote: Laser is definitely the most insane thing to be used against shield tankers. My 425 shields go down faster against a decently speced LR than going up against a Balac with 4 complex damage mods, weaponry to lvl 5, proficiency to level 5, and is landing 100% headshots. It is just lol ridiculous how beast a LR is against shields. I bet my health bar actually drops faster than the animation can show (which would make sense based on how fast it appears to eat my armor up too). You've gotta love the increased damage over time, it's a shame though that every time you get caught in CQ you end up having a panic attack. I always get a chuckle catching a LR user in a CQC situation and they keep using the LR, which to me indicates that they are likely stacking all damage mods and can't fit a sidearm (or they are a player that is new to lasers and doesn't realize it's effectiveness in close range is severely reduced). But lasers are definitely the answer to shields for medium-long range combat. Had a player melt me the other night so fast, that it felt like I died faster than being OHK from a headshot with a charge sniper rifle.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 447	Posted - 2013.03.02 23:26:00 - [19] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: gbghg wrote: DJINN leukoplast wrote: Laser is definitely the most insane thing to be used against shield tankers. My 425 shields go down faster against a decently speced LR than going up against a Balac with 4 complex damage mods, weaponry to lvl 5, proficiency to level 5, and is landing 100% headshots. It is just lol ridiculous how beast a LR is against shields. I bet my health bar actually drops faster than the animation can show (which would make sense based on how fast it appears to eat my armor up too). You've gotta love the increased damage over time, it's a shame though that every time you get caught in CQ you end up having a panic attack. I always get a chuckle catching a LR user in a CQC situation and they keep using the LR, which to me indicates that they are likely stacking all damage mods and can't fit a sidearm (or they are a player that is new to lasers and doesn't realize it's effectiveness in close range is severely reduced). But lasers are definitely the answer to shields for medium-long range combat. Had a player melt me the other night so fast, that it felt like I died faster than being OHK from a headshot with a charge sniper rifle. I run a laser on a logi suit, so my only defence in close quarters are grenades and melee But i was playing one of the manus peak ambush variants the other day, the one with the landing platforms in the base, and me and a couple of other LR users were keeping pretty much the entire enemy team at bay and behind cover. we ended up getting so much incoming i spent half my time just repairing the other bluedots on the platform. IMO it was the perfect example of the kind of battle the LR excels in
The Lone Deranger Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 3	Posted - 2013.03.03 01:18:00 - [20] - Quote 54rffv wrote: Technical-Support wrote: popped a flux grenade i'm sweatin Yeah is there anything that can drop your entire armor set like a flux does to 400+ sheilds. Whats the counter to the flux? You are failing to mention that key in the equasion. just remember mass drivers and locus grenades do more damage to armor

Kira Lannister Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 728	Posted - 2013.03.03 01:26:00 - [21] - Quote Pop goes the flux. BAI SHIELDS!
Quill Killian Better Hide R Die 108	Posted - 2013.03.03 01:48:00 - [22] - Quote Kira Lannister wrote: Pop goes the flux. BAI SHIELDS! You're late to the party with that one.
Winsaucerer The Southern Legion 21	Posted - 2013.03.03 01:55:00 - [23] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: One previously mentioned idea was to apply a penalty to scan profile when using Shield Extenders, which to me sounds like a really good idea as it sort of forces you to take into account the drawbacks when you fit your suit - just like armor plating. I am very worried about this being implemented. I play a stealthy scout -- idea being I can get behind and around enemies to capture points and bring us back in the game. I cannot armour tank when playing this role. Scout suit CPU is tight, so one low slot is used for a cpu enhancer, and the other slot for a sensor damp. When I can finally fit more, I have plans for two low-slot items related to stealth, leaving one slot for armour if I can fit it on (on a proto suit). I am pretty much resigned to using shield. But if shields increase my scan profile, then I'm giving up my stealth to play the stealth role, and that just doesn't make sense. It leaves the frontline get-behind-enemy-lines scout with no defences...maybe a token shield or armour, but otherwise very weak. So if this was going to be implemented, then I highly recommend CCP take a look at this particular scout role and see how it is supposed to defend itself. One way to get around this would be a scout suit role bonus -- no scan profile penalty from shield enhancers.
2-Ton Twenty-One Imperfects Negative-Feedback 239	Posted - 2013.03.03 02:27:00 - [24] - Quote if flux grenade damage was consistent and spread for all explosions was not so f-ed up I would agree with you guys, if they made the spreads work properly then yes, but till they fix spread dmg shields get the advantage.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1041	Posted - 2013.03.03 07:21:00 - [25] - Quote Winsaucerer wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: One previously mentioned idea was to apply a penalty to scan profile when using Shield Extenders, which to me sounds like a really good idea as it sort of forces you to take into account the drawbacks when you fit your suit - just like armor plating. I am very worried about this being implemented. I play a stealthy scout -- idea being I can get behind and around enemies to capture points and bring us back in the game. I cannot armour tank when playing this role. Scout suit CPU is tight, so one low slot is used for a cpu enhancer, and the other slot for a sensor damp. When I can finally fit more, I have plans for two low-slot items related to stealth, leaving one slot for armour if I can fit it on (on a proto suit). I am pretty much resigned to using shield. But if shields increase my scan profile, then I'm giving up my stealth to play the stealth role, and that just doesn't make sense. It leaves the frontline get-behind-enemy-lines scout with no defences...maybe a token shield or armour, but otherwise very weak. So if this was going to be implemented, then I highly recommend CCP take a look at this particular scout role and see how it is supposed to defend itself. One way to get around this would be a scout suit role bonus -- no scan profile penalty from shield enhancers. Well, Scout was balanced for features that aren't currently in game yet. Something I've never understood is forcing the Scout to choose between Speed Modules/EWAR modules (scan profile dampener/code breaker) I was incredibly discouraged when I found out I couldn't apply a code breaker to my scout without sacrificing biotics/profile dampeners. To counter your argument however, with skills the way they are a Scout with Dropsuit Command/Scan Dampening 5 can beat Active Scanners, according to theory - shield module penalities wouldn't have too great of an impact on your profile. 50% of 45 is (roughly speaking) 22.5; so even with a 10% penalty to that you still have a profile of 25; still beats pretty much anything on the field. Assuming I've done my math right, of course ^_^;;; Edit: When I say balanced for things not in game yet, I mean cloaking
Daalzebul Del'Armgo D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire 48	Posted - 2013.03.03 08:10:00 - [26] - Quote why not go with the logistics vk1 what you lose a whole .4 run speed? oh and a whole second on shield recharge delay. oh and 5 in scan profile but the gains 24 stamina recovery over the 18 a scout get's plus plenty of cpu to fit in all them biotic stuff =p
Rugman91 Deep Space Republic 143	Posted - 2013.03.04 02:56:00 - [27] - Quote There is indeed an unbalance. My idea would be to lower the recarge rate of shields(will also promote use of shield rechargers which are underused) and the lower hp of upper level shield extenders. Also making armor repair percentage based could be a good idea
IRuby Heart DIOS EX. 381	Posted - 2013.03.04 03:41:00 - [28] - Quote crazy space 1 wrote: shields increase your sig radius making you pop up on the map more easily Like anyone gives a crap about that. I have 2 Enhanced profile dampeners on my scout, worst investment ever.


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