DUST Search - NO MORE TANKS IN AMBUSH!

Y0UR NAME HERE wrote:

trollface dot jpg wrote:

Tanks are balanced in skirmish, I've seen 2 tanks completely own a decent team without any real proper support from their team in a skirmish match in the Communications map. Well, their team capped objectives like there was no tomorrow, but the tanks had no one hunting down the AV for them.

To do well in a tank you need skill with your tank and skill at managing your hardners/reppers/etc., but in a skirmish it's not even really a matter of skill anymore which is why most tankers hate it. It becomes a mix of situational awareness and forethought before taking any action that keeps you alive. Slowing down and planning what you do before you do it isn't the forte of most people who lumber around cloaked in thousands and tens of thousands of EHP. If you want to be a truly good tanker, you have to know your escape routes and be sure you can access them from where you are going. You have to keep track of your teams movements so you at least know where the enemy likely ISN'T at in case you have to make a sudden change in plans.

Basically ambush is easy mode for proper tanks, especially if there is more than one proper tank on the field. These people mostly just want to limit that number down to one so that the basic infantry have a chance as well. With random matching, if you aren't skilled into AV you can't do anything to help kill a tank. So you have to avoid it and hope someone else will take care of it for you. If you have a whole team who only has basic AV and has to fend off random spawning issues as well as 2+ proper tanks running amok on a CQC map, you are taking all the fun out of the match for everyone but the tankers.

Sure, if there is one proper AV guy on your team who loves tank hunting, he'll have fun, but that still leaves the other 15 players left out in the cold. In front of a blaster. Attached to a tank. Driven by someone too afraid to face skirmish.

-1 and +1

Skirmish is crap for tanks.

Its where you see skilled Av players that dedicated their sp into AV solo proper fitted tanks, or

Drop OB's on them.


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trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 24	Posted - 2013.02.28 01:24:00 - [1] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: You need to stop it with the "tanks are unfair, stop that!" talk. This is a sandbox and we can do what we want. If there are 4 proto tanks on the field, the enemy team has easily invested 10 mil isk to win a pub match. no **** your going to lose. You really think your militia swarms are going to counter that? get some av nades. I would be chompin at the bit to destroy some isk like that. If you are in a fleet of 10 frigates in EVE and the enemy comes in with caps, your not living long. Thats how it works. The enemy just stepped it up and brought a tank to a gun fight. Put the knife away. AV nades on a top level tank? Please. 180 plates, 2 active 25% hardners, 1 passive 11% resistance mod, 9% damage control unit just for S&G's on a Madrugar. Oh look, you STILL have slots left for more health even though your tank can now take 8 AV grenades without dying! And you are saying AV grenades will drop 4 proto tanks properly fitted, let alone one in a match where you cannot control where you spawn or who/what you spawn near? Please, tell me more.
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 24	Posted - 2013.02.28 02:02:00 - [2] - Quote Tanks are balanced in skirmish, I've seen 2 tanks completely own a decent team without any real proper support from their team in a skirmish match in the Communications map. Well, their team capped objectives like there was no tomorrow, but the tanks had no one hunting down the AV for them. To do well in a tank you need skill with your tank and skill at managing your hardners/reppers/etc., but in a skirmish it's not even really a matter of skill anymore which is why most tankers hate it. It becomes a mix of situational awareness and forethought before taking any action that keeps you alive. Slowing down and planning what you do before you do it isn't the forte of most people who lumber around cloaked in thousands and tens of thousands of EHP. If you want to be a truly good tanker, you have to know your escape routes and be sure you can access them from where you are going. You have to keep track of your teams movements so you at least know where the enemy likely ISN'T at in case you have to make a sudden change in plans. Basically ambush is easy mode for proper tanks, especially if there is more than one proper tank on the field. These people mostly just want to limit that number down to one so that the basic infantry have a chance as well. With random matching, if you aren't skilled into AV you can't do anything to help kill a tank. So you have to avoid it and hope someone else will take care of it for you. If you have a whole team who only has basic AV and has to fend off random spawning issues as well as 2+ proper tanks running amok on a CQC map, you are taking all the fun out of the match for everyone but the tankers. Sure, if there is one proper AV guy on your team who loves tank hunting, he'll have fun, but that still leaves the other 15 players left out in the cold. In front of a blaster. Attached to a tank. Driven by someone too afraid to face skirmish.
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 25	Posted - 2013.02.28 02:35:00 - [3] - Quote Y0UR NAME HERE wrote: trollface dot jpg wrote: Tanks are balanced in skirmish, I've seen 2 tanks completely own a decent team without any real proper support from their team in a skirmish match in the Communications map. Well, their team capped objectives like there was no tomorrow, but the tanks had no one hunting down the AV for them. To do well in a tank you need skill with your tank and skill at managing your hardners/reppers/etc., but in a skirmish it's not even really a matter of skill anymore which is why most tankers hate it. It becomes a mix of situational awareness and forethought before taking any action that keeps you alive. Slowing down and planning what you do before you do it isn't the forte of most people who lumber around cloaked in thousands and tens of thousands of EHP. If you want to be a truly good tanker, you have to know your escape routes and be sure you can access them from where you are going. You have to keep track of your teams movements so you at least know where the enemy likely ISN'T at in case you have to make a sudden change in plans. Basically ambush is easy mode for proper tanks, especially if there is more than one proper tank on the field. These people mostly just want to limit that number down to one so that the basic infantry have a chance as well. With random matching, if you aren't skilled into AV you can't do anything to help kill a tank. So you have to avoid it and hope someone else will take care of it for you. If you have a whole team who only has basic AV and has to fend off random spawning issues as well as 2+ proper tanks running amok on a CQC map, you are taking all the fun out of the match for everyone but the tankers. Sure, if there is one proper AV guy on your team who loves tank hunting, he'll have fun, but that still leaves the other 15 players left out in the cold. In front of a blaster. Attached to a tank. Driven by someone too afraid to face skirmish. -1 and +1 Skirmish is crap for tanks. Its where you see skilled Av players that dedicated their sp into AV solo proper fitted tanks, or Drop OB's on them. OB's are always aimed at enemy tanks, no matter the game mode. You just see the enemy team get less OB's in an ambush since they get so little chance to get points while being chased around the field by 80GJ turrets. And the reason AV players are able to solo proper tanks occasionally in skirmish is in part due to the lack of certain characteristics I mentioned above but sill not bring up again since they seem to have displeased you, but also do to the fact that they can play their spawns and come in safely 9 times out of 10, unlike in ambush where you have about a 30% chance of spawning into a relatively safe location before you have to wade off through the enemy to reach the tank to try to kill it. Honestly, if they buffed tanks at all, then even 1 tank would be too much for ambush unless it was a militia tank. And even militia tanks can be made to stand up to serious opposition if they have a good team supporting them. The idea here is to figure out how to make tanks work for all game modes. If they cannot be balanced properly for all game modes, then they need some level of restriction placed on them. If you buff them, say by giving them a 25% increase to base EHP, then only allow militia tanks into ambush, it would be fine. The higher level the tank, the more HP it would get since 25% of a Soma's HP isn't as much as 25% of a Madrugars. But then CCP would have to figure out how to implement that rule for tanks into the code of the game without breaking the game in the process. Allowing only one tank into an ambush would be much simpler, it would merely require changing the vehicle count limits for the match. I don't think tanks really need a buff so much as they need a coordinated team who will actively try to protect it. And drivers who don't run off solo away from teammates who are protecting it. You can't really expect this in public skirmishes, but buffing them would just make corp battles and ambush that more tank focused and everything else in the match that much less relevant. If you have some other ideas, I'd be willing to listen. Hell, why don't we nerf both AV AND tanks. Nerf the damage the tank weapons can do, nerf the damage AV does to a tank, nerf the damage installations do, then everyone wins to an extent.
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 25	Posted - 2013.02.28 02:36:00 - [4] - Quote Double Post
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 25	Posted - 2013.02.28 02:42:00 - [5] - Quote Mortal Maximus wrote: Coleman Gray wrote: If everyone took AV grenades Tanks wouldn't be an issue At least someone knows what to do when a tank comes on the field :/ When you have a 50/50 chance of spawning safely, your chances of even getting to use those grenades drops by half. Then you have to wade over to where the tank is, another 50/50 chance since you have both infantry and the tank to look out for. So you've got about a 25% chance of getting a shot at that tank. Hmm.... what a foolproof way to solve the issue....
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 26	Posted - 2013.02.28 03:10:00 - [6] - Quote Y0UR NAME HERE wrote: trollface dot jpg wrote: Y0UR NAME HERE wrote: trollface dot jpg wrote: --Basically ambush is easy mode for proper tanks, especially if there is more than one proper tank on the field.-- Snipitty snip snip --Skirmish is crap for tanks.-- Snip snip snipitty snip --Allowing only one tank into an ambush would be much simpler, it would merely require changing the vehicle count limits for the match.-- Snip snip snipitty snip snipitty snipity snip snip --I've listed out all my ideas thoughts through a 180 post thread I made that is currently on page 2 of general discussions called fixing tanks.-- Snipitty snip snipitty snip snip snipitty Snipitty--Snipitty --Don't touch my tank.--Snipitty snipitty snipitty snip snip SNAP (OMG, MY SCISSORS!!!!) I have no intention of laying so much as a finger on your tank (the nerf everything comment was a joke), I merely wish to resolve the issue of this thread without either side becoming over excited on the issue. I have read your thread actually, but did not post on it since it was already brimming with constructive posts. This one was was left wanting for the most part, so I took it up. As for your tank thread, I honestly think if you buff your survivability you would have to nerf your damage out put. Simply put, buff the HP/hardners all you want, as long as you nerf the damage output by an equivalent amount. You can roll around in an invincible APC if you want as long as you're not able to output any damage (other than roadkill of course). I'm fine with the tank HP & damage output in general, but if you want to make it more survivable, you have to give up something in return. You can't just expect buffs AND keep 100% of your perks.
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 26	Posted - 2013.02.28 03:44:00 - [7] - Quote Y0UR NAME HERE wrote: trollface dot jpg wrote: Y0UR NAME HERE wrote: trollface dot jpg wrote: Y0UR NAME HERE wrote: --Skirmish is crap for tanks.-- Snip snip snipitty snip --Allowing only one tank into an ambush would be much simpler, it would merely require changing the vehicle count limits for the match.-- Snip snip snipitty snip snipitty snipity snip snip --I've listed out all my ideas thoughts through a 180 post thread I made that is currently on page 2 of general discussions called fixing tanks.-- Snipitty snip snipitty snip snip snipitty Snipitty--Snipitty --Don't touch my tank.--Snipitty snipitty snipitty snip snip SNAP (OMG, MY SCISSORS!!!!) I have no intention of laying so much as a finger on your tank (the nerf everything comment was a joke), I merely wish to resolve the issue of this thread without either side becoming over excited on the issue. I have read your thread actually, but did not post on it since it was already brimming with constructive posts. This one was was left wanting for the most part, so I took it up. As for your tank thread, I honestly think if you buff your survivability you would have to nerf your damage out put. Simply put, buff the HP/hardners all you want, as long as you nerf the damage output by an equivalent amount. You can roll around in an invincible APC if you want as long as you're not able to output any damage (other than roadkill of course). I'm fine with the tank HP & damage output in general, but if you want to make it more survivable, you have to give up something in return. You can't just expect buffs AND keep 100% of your perks. We only have 1 functioning weapon system atm. So why not, let's Nerf blasters, they always were the worst weapon anyways. Actually have to aim with them ^^ bring meh missiles back. Well, if you nerf the hybrid turrets down to the level of the missile turrets, I'd say you're looking at about a 55% increase to total health and perhaps around an extra 5% extra damage reduction for each of your hardners equipped, plus an extra high slot on proto shield tanks and an extra low on proto armor tanks. Which would mean AV would need a slight buff of about 10% to even have a chance to keep up with that amount of damage & resistance, otherwise tanks could sit around and tank constant AV hits for a good 20 seconds before having to move on. It would be interesting, but you'd be doing so little damage that it would be no fun at all. What I would suggest: If you cut hybrids damage output by ~25% and increased the heat build up by 10% or so, I'd be cool to give up about a 25~30% bump in HP, plus that would also make it worth adding those extra slots you were wanting. In addition, I'd also give up a 10% bump in PG/CPU on all tanks to help with fitting those slots, a 10% increase to shield hardner duration, 10% reduction to shield hardner cooldown time, and a 5% increase to armor tank speed. That should be MORE than enough survivability, even if you wanted to run missiles you'd be able to tank a few rounds while firing off a few volleys without getting into too much danger.
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 26	Posted - 2013.02.28 04:19:00 - [8] - Quote Y0UR NAME HERE wrote: trollface dot jpg wrote: Well, if you nerf the hybrid turrets down to the level of the missile turrets, I'd say you're looking at about a 55% increase to total health and perhaps around an extra 5% extra damage reduction for each of your hardners equipped, plus an extra high slot on proto shield tanks and an extra low on proto armor tanks. Which would mean AV would need a slight buff of about 10% to even have a chance to keep up with that amount of damage & resistance, otherwise tanks could sit around and tank constant AV hits for a good 20 seconds before having to move on. It would be interesting, but you'd be doing so little damage that it would be no fun at all. What I would suggest: If you cut hybrids damage output by ~25% and increased the heat build up by 10% or so, I'd be cool to give up about a 25~30% bump in HP, plus that would also make it worth adding those extra slots you were wanting. In addition, I'd also give up a 10% bump in PG/CPU on all tanks to help with fitting those slots, a 10% increase to shield hardner duration, 10% reduction to shield hardner cooldown time, and a 5% increase to armor tank speed. That should be MORE than enough survivability, even if you wanted to run missiles you'd be able to tank a few rounds while firing off a few volleys without getting into too much danger. Mmm I like the inner troll in you. Honestly keeping tank weapon damage without skills would be cool. Think, I'm getting 2% per turret operation 2% per blaster level 4% per maurader level 40% in total with no damage mods. Have you seen the thread on my bid for becoming CSM? If you were to give up the passive bonuses for hybrid turrets, you'd have to replace that bonus with something else or you'd never hear the end of it from hybrid turret lovers, and I'd never further nerf the missile than it already is by removing the turret operation bonus. As much as I hated the missile turret before the nerf, I pity it just as much now after the nerf. But OMG I SO enjoyed the tears shed over the loss of the missile win button I would add a passive tracking speed bonus or a passive range bonus to make up for the lost damage bonus. But that still leaves it at 30% damage taken off of the blaster/rail turrets, so that's an additional 5% off from the mark I laid out. Perhaps in return for this you could have a small price drop on all vehicle related modules and for all turrets (5-10% off) since this would effect light vehicles and aircraft as well. That would alleviate some of the financial burden of vehicle pilots to make up for their additional damage drop.