DUST Search - [Suggestion] Railgun sniping from mountaintops (Updated)

Vaerana Myshtana wrote:

I'm not sure, Jason. I encountered a Sagaris up there the other day that was pretty darn hard to find. I don't know if the driver was lucky or the map broken, but I couldn't see him from any place that I could lock a swarm on him. It must've had something to do with the angle of his positioning, but he could hit most of the map and effectively bottled up 2/3 of the map meaning that his team could concentrate most of their forces into defending the sneaky route and sniping our AVs.

While I applaud their teamwork, that level of pubstomp is exacerbated by the ease of positioning a sniper tank up there.

I don't think we need to nerf anything, we just need to give RDVs and DSs the same flight ceiling. If an RDV can get a tank up there, I should be able to land a DS on the turret.

Heck, I don't like hard flight ceilings at all. Make it based on mass and thrust.

Of course we also need to let passengers (not just turret gunners) shoot out of vehicles.

That would mean that a DS full of swarms and rail gun turrets might MAYBE have a chance of pegging a mountaintop Sagaris before the tank's main gun killed the DS.

Right now, it can be pretty invincible.

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Canaan Knute Conspiratus Immortalis 14	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:03:00 - [1] - Quote On the Manus Peak skirmish map, the team that spawns on the Bravo side can send a scout up to the tallest mountain east of Alpha and have him call in a railgun tank at the very top. From here you have eyes on everything except the back roads leading into Charlie and areas hidden by the various structures strewn about the battlefield. There is also very little cover at Charlie and Alpha, and the railgun can still hit you with splash damage if the object you're using as cover isn't big enough. This makes it a difficult tactic to counter, because the few places on Manus Peak where you can take shots at the tank in relative safety make you vulnerable to infantry, and it's hard for your teammates to support you when the railgun is keeping them suppressed. If you attempt to call in any vehicles at your base, the railgun can destroy or severely damage them before they even hit the ground, making it difficult for you to counter snipe without the enemy destroying your vehicle first. I have also been told that it is impossible to fly a dropship up the mountain because of the flight ceiling, so the only useful AV weapons are forge guns, swarm launchers, railguns, and missile launchers, all of which require you to expose yourself in order to use them. I'm not going to ask CCP for railgun nerfs or new map layouts, but we should have more ways to counter this tactic. I will detail some of my suggestions below. Orbital strikes should not require WP Currently, 2500 WP is needed for an OB to become available, but if there is a tank on the field causing trouble for you and your team, it can be very difficult to earn enough points, especially if said tank is killing you repeatedly. This is even more of a problem on Manus Peak, since it has little cover compared to maps like Ashland and Skim Junction. Apart from such a requirement making no sense whatsoever, being able to use orbital strikes without having to earn WP would cause tank drivers to be less aggressive at the beginning of matches and prevent them from using tactics that limit their mobility, such as sniping from mountaintops. This suggestion might alarm players worried about the possibility of squad leaders dropping orbital strikes on spawn points and vehicles being called in at the beginning of the match, but this could be fixed by placing CRUs in semi-random positions for every battle. As for vehicles, they could be invisible (cloaked) while the RDV brings them in (and perhaps for a few seconds after landing as well), similar to the way EVE ships are invisible after exiting warp. However, this would increase the risk of being crushed by vehicles, and could be used as a griefing tool. EDIT: There should also be a cooldown period for orbital strikes, so that only two or three can be called in per match. Raise the flight ceiling With a higher flight ceiling, we would be able to drop players equipped with AV weapons on top of the mountain. This would also make it easier for aerial vehicles to evade swarm launchers and forge guns. Raising the flight ceiling would make it possible to fly players with long range weaponry (sniper rifles, forge guns, swarm launchers, etc.) up to currently inaccessible areas, such as mountaintops and towers, but having the ability to call in orbital strikes at the beginning of a match would prevent this from becoming a severe issue.
usrevenge2 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 64	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:07:00 - [2] - Quote they could simply reduce the range of railguns, at a certain range they should do miniscule damage.
DrunkardBastards Inebriated Liberation Front 23	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:11:00 - [3] - Quote I wonder what would happen if they made OB's cost like 100,000 ISK EDIT: Canaan Knute wrote: EDIT: There should also be a cooldown period for orbital strikes, so that only two or three can be called in per match. I fear other people would just use em up and it wouldn't do anyone much good. As someone who rarely gets enough WP to call a strike, i'd like to see more options for acquiring them..
BloodBrotherBro BloodBrothers4u 3	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:13:00 - [4] - Quote Na OB's should be a mill per strike lol....
Alejandro Pereira Universal Allies Inc. 12	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:29:00 - [5] - Quote usrevenge2 wrote: they could simply reduce the range of railguns, at a certain range they should do miniscule damage. NO NERFING period. Also, Railguns and range limit do not belong in the same paragraph much less sentence unless your talking of ranges in exess of tens of miles based on current RL information on this tech. Optional methods of calling in OB would be more germain to the issue. The warning here is you cant make it too cheep or it will be abused, or too expensive that it isnt worth using at all. Ultimatly, the best method to handel this is to Hump your A$$'s up that hill with AV and kill the bastard. But you have to be able to work as a team. SO you PUG ppl Go learn TEAMWORK and USE A fricking MIC!!!
Canaan Knute Conspiratus Immortalis 14	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:31:00 - [6] - Quote DrunkardBastards wrote: I fear other people would just use em up and it wouldn't do anyone much good. If orbital strikes had a cooldown period, players wouldn't be able to use them all at once, and it might cause them to preserve OBs until they are needed. EDIT: I should also add that player error, and capitalizing on those mistakes, is a part of the game. The problem is that we can't choose our teammates for public matches.
DrunkardBastards Inebriated Liberation Front 23	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:37:00 - [7] - Quote Canaan Knute wrote: DrunkardBastards wrote: I fear other people would just use em up and it wouldn't do anyone much good. If orbital strikes had a cooldown period, players wouldn't be able to use them all at once, and it might cause them to preserve OBs until they are needed. I would just call in an OB on some random red running out in the middle of no where just cuz i could.. or get bored and shoot one at the MCC. Maybe its just me.. Edit: Sorry my point was taking the OB's away from individual players and giving them to the whole team doesn't sound like a good idea.
Takahiro Kashuken Intara Direct Action Caldari State 102	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:40:00 - [8] - Quote Someone from SI did that today I was on the A side and didnt see it even tho i could hear the shots So i got a free LAV and my fatsuit with milita FG and AV nades and went up ther, i got ther by crossing into ther redline then running up the rest of the way FG it in the back then it decided to jump off the mountain so i chased it down launching another FG shot at it and my AV nades and when we hit the bottom it was on fire and then died Or you could SL it
Alejandro Pereira Universal Allies Inc. 12	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:43:00 - [9] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Someone from SI did that today I was on the A side and didnt see it even tho i could hear the shots So i got a free LAV and my fatsuit with milita FG and AV nades and went up ther, i got ther by crossing into ther redline then running up the rest of the way FG it in the back then it decided to jump off the mountain so i chased it down launching another FG shot at it and my AV nades and when we hit the bottom it was on fire and then died Or you could SL it Hooya!! Love the smell of napalm in the morn...aft...er ev... DAMN!!! I love it ANYTIME!! BBQ anyone?
Canaan Knute Conspiratus Immortalis 14	Posted - 2013.02.23 00:21:00 - [10] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Someone from SI did that today I was on the A side and didnt see it even tho i could hear the shots So i got a free LAV and my fatsuit with milita FG and AV nades and went up ther, i got ther by crossing into ther redline then running up the rest of the way FG it in the back then it decided to jump off the mountain so i chased it down launching another FG shot at it and my AV nades and when we hit the bottom it was on fire and then died Or you could SL it That's a great story, but it might not always work out that way. Free LAVs are very weak, so if there are forge guns, swarm launchers, AV grenades and proximity mines on the field, you might not even get there alive. You also have to avoid the tank's railgun. I'm pretty sure there's also a railgun installation near the enemy base that you have to pass to get to the mountain, unless someone destroys it.

Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 435	Posted - 2013.02.23 00:25:00 - [11] - Quote You're complaining that you didn't hike up there with a nanohive, remote explosives, and AV nades? Don't tell me it was impossible either, because I've hauled my ass up there and bonked a sniper in the head. There's no difference between a Rail HAV and a sniper in essence. They both suck in CQC.
Canaan Knute Conspiratus Immortalis 14	Posted - 2013.02.23 01:01:00 - [12] - Quote You have to go behind enemy lines to get up there. Climbing up the mountain is not that hard, provided you're in a scout or assault suit (is it even possible with assault?), but getting to the base of the mountain undetected can be difficult.
FrozenChaos Brotherhood ofthe Commissioned 2	Posted - 2013.02.23 04:34:00 - [13] - Quote The easiest way to fix this problem is to increase the flight ceiling so dropships can get troops up there...its freaking stupid that foot soldiers can climb higher than a dropship could fly to begin with
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 435	Posted - 2013.02.23 04:43:00 - [14] - Quote Canaan Knute wrote: You have to go behind enemy lines to get up there. Climbing up the mountain is not that hard, provided you're in a scout or assault suit (is it even possible with assault?), but getting to the base of the mountain undetected can be difficult. Actually, you can cut through the redline and still be alive with plenty of time and start the hike. I've done it in enemy lines before, you just have to take a long detour across the map but you'll be plenty sneaky most of the time enough to get into their redline unnoticed. I figure I'll show you from Condor Squad.
Canaan Knute Conspiratus Immortalis 14	Posted - 2013.02.23 05:42:00 - [15] - Quote FrozenChaos wrote: The easiest way to fix this problem is to increase the flight ceiling so dropships can get troops up there...its freaking stupid that foot soldiers can climb higher than a dropship could fly to begin with That's actually one of the things I was going to suggest, but couldn't because of time constraints. I'll add it to my post as soon as possible. Bojo The Mighty wrote: Actually, you can cut through the redline and still be alive with plenty of time and start the hike. I've done it in enemy lines before, you just have to take a long detour across the map but you'll be plenty sneaky most of the time enough to get into their redline unnoticed. I figure I'll show you from Condor Squad. I'm definitely interested in learning how to deal with this tactic, but I still think some changes, such as raising the flight ceiling and making orbital strikes available without WP (both of which should happen anyway, in my opinion), are sorely needed.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 742	Posted - 2013.02.23 13:44:00 - [16] - Quote I fear you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Take it from someone who regularly does this (I do not care, I sit on that mountain covering Alpha and do a fine job of it), it is very easy to kill someone sitting up there in a railgun tank especially if he has no Infantry support which is usually why he is up there in the first place. First look to what kind of Tank it is and get the appropriate counter measure (Swarms for Armor, Forges for Shields) and take cover near the mountain at the base. Now fire before he sees you, chances are you'll find he is actually stuck on that ledge as there is not enough room for the tank to back up. Keep firing and the tank will either die, fall off the mountain or be able to reverse. If in the unlikely event he rolls back and takes cover, you're going to have to get to the enemy redline, run up the back of the mountain and take him out. Bring AV nades and a Swarm (as a heavy would take too long to get up there), preferably in a Scout Suit due to its speed. Fire the AV nades and Swarms, the Tank and if he does back up, get in close to his rear as neither turrets can shoot you, it is a blindspot. If you have a Nanohive, use the AV nades to great affect and continue your barrage. The tanker may get out but keep firing at the Tank as it will die. Most Railguns up there will be Glass Cannon type builds so they're going to be extremely weak anyways. If the Tanker actually drives forward instead of trying to fight you (I use this tactic), you can fire at him from the mountain and leave, you've done your job and the Tanker cannot actually get back up the hill. /applauds
Vaerana Myshtana ScIdama Endless Renaissance 205	Posted - 2013.02.23 17:54:00 - [17] - Quote I'm not sure, Jason. I encountered a Sagaris up there the other day that was pretty darn hard to find. I don't know if the driver was lucky or the map broken, but I couldn't see him from any place that I could lock a swarm on him. It must've had something to do with the angle of his positioning, but he could hit most of the map and effectively bottled up 2/3 of the map meaning that his team could concentrate most of their forces into defending the sneaky route and sniping our AVs. While I applaud their teamwork, that level of pubstomp is exacerbated by the ease of positioning a sniper tank up there. I don't think we need to nerf anything, we just need to give RDVs and DSs the same flight ceiling. If an RDV can get a tank up there, I should be able to land a DS on the turret. Heck, I don't like hard flight ceilings at all. Make it based on mass and thrust. Of course we also need to let passengers (not just turret gunners) shoot out of vehicles. That would mean that a DS full of swarms and rail gun turrets might MAYBE have a chance of pegging a mountaintop Sagaris before the tank's main gun killed the DS. Right now, it can be pretty invincible.
drake sadani Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 42	Posted - 2013.02.23 18:43:00 - [18] - Quote Vaerana Myshtana wrote: I'm not sure, Jason. I encountered a Sagaris up there the other day that was pretty darn hard to find. I don't know if the driver was lucky or the map broken, but I couldn't see him from any place that I could lock a swarm on him. It must've had something to do with the angle of his positioning, but he could hit most of the map and effectively bottled up 2/3 of the map meaning that his team could concentrate most of their forces into defending the sneaky route and sniping our AVs. While I applaud their teamwork, that level of pubstomp is exacerbated by the ease of positioning a sniper tank up there. I don't think we need to nerf anything, we just need to give RDVs and DSs the same flight ceiling. If an RDV can get a tank up there, I should be able to land a DS on the turret. Heck, I don't like hard flight ceilings at all. Make it based on mass and thrust. Of course we also need to let passengers (not just turret gunners) shoot out of vehicles. That would mean that a DS full of swarms and rail gun turrets might MAYBE have a chance of pegging a mountaintop Sagaris before the tank's main gun killed the DS. Right now, it can be pretty invincible. ^ i like you .you're smart its refreshing . i agree again :)
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2013.02.23 18:58:00 - [19] - Quote Personally I will ask CCP for new map layouts. In this case there needs to be a pathway to that peak from both spawn zones not just one. The opposite side of the map has some similar sniping nooks but they don't present this balance issue because they are accessible from both map spawns and they can be reached by moving cover to cover rather than moving through the open into the opposing redline. The new Manus Peak is less imbalanced than the old Manus Peak, but it still needs work because even with the recent improvements it is still the most broken map in rotation. 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ very odd to me that the map with least balance is also the map most commonly selected for FW/corp battles. I would be very interested to hear the reasoning behind that if anyone official would care to comment.
KalOfTheRathi CowTek 168	Posted - 2013.02.23 19:06:00 - [20] - Quote The DJINN crowd really likes that method. It is sorely lacking in concept, honor and is a tactic one would associate with KD/R CoD and other low caliber players. Several of my friends have taken to hunting them down. Check if you are A: In Manus Peak, B: Against the DJINNs or their copycats. Your goal is now Killing DJINN as winning no longer matters. Send a Scout or anything really up the hill First Thing. Place an Uplink. Now spawn in your HAV Driver and drop the tank of you choice. Kill DJINN and their Tanks. Spamming the area with Proximity mines is a worthy addition to the possible tactics. There are really very few places they can be. I have taken them out with Shotguns when they leave the tanks to snipe. The agile Scout Suit does make that much easier, so note that. I have also dropped my own Sniper Tank first thing. Then I shoot anything that moves up there and as I routinely destroy Bolas adding WP from the RDV and their cheap Sicas are fine with me. Pays the same WP as the expensive tanks. We have also taken a cheap Dropship most of the way up the hill with a full squad. Played around for awhile and some of us left. The others had a merry time fighting DJINNs and we didn't lose any infrastructure. Killed some DJINN, some HAVs and got killed as well. Please Note that they try a similar but more easily foiled tactic when on the other side. I found a DJINN nestled into the mountain relatively close to the Defender spawn point. Simply dropping in with a Forge Gun got him to actually play the game. When he (who knows, really) went back to the spot I popped the HAV. Good times, dead DJINN and HAV. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=42731&find=unread The Grid location is the middle of C at the line between 5 and 6. It provides a good hiding spot for the HAV but is easily hit by any Forge or Swarm launcher. The HAV was difficult to take out as it wasn't a cheap tank as I recall. It did make a nice popping sound.



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