DUST Search - [Request] Differentiating weapon types through ballistics

Rachoi wrote:

Kagoeshi, i rather dislike debating with you, since your ideas are genius a good chunk of the time.

this one... i'm afraid i have to.

the issue with the whole disappearing shots with the plasma weaponry is because the holding field for the little plasma charges fails after a certain distance, and the plasma disperses into the air. that is the reason why the ARs atleast have a flat range they can fire.

as for the Railgun Tech, those are... simply put... sublight projectiles. they are going beyond mark 10 in speed when they come out of the barrel, and those speeds tear apart nearly any slug, even depleted uranium goes to dust when fired from a railgun after a certain distance, just because of the immense speed and force on them. those will only go so far before they're little dust balls.

now the minmitar projectile tech... that is debatable, they could keep firing farther, very much so in fact, but doing that also puts the effective range of an SMG a bit too far, as well as the HMG, and beyond the range they're going now, the bullets would start to fall end over end, because i dont think the Minmatar use the same kind of firing tech we do, so means no gunpowder how we see it, possibly no barrel rifling beyond the bare working minimum. granted, that would still help, but i think bullet stability drops to a point where it just doesn't scratch shields at that point.
the Electro-Lasers, as you put them... i think those are probably a good idea on firing speeds, but about it.

your ideas are great, but not really.. founded like most of your others are.

i don't want to burst your bubble... the Flaylock will probably drop or burst after a certain point, and the new Shoulder Cannon that should be out Soon[tm] would pitter out after a certain point, like the AR.

grand ideas...

Pages: [1] :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2013.02.17 22:57:00 - [1] - Quote I really didn't care much about the fact that our weapons are hitscan (hits as soon as you pull the trigger with no travel time) until someone called "I" on the Dust 514 IRC chat suggested these possibilities of diverse and meaningful ballistic effects to me: Give shots travel time: leading shots would be needed for battles at certain ranges. Each kind of round would have their own speed. Plasma rounds (blasters, shotgun, assault rifle) should have the slowest travel speed. Then it should be regular projective rounds (SMG, HMG) should be the 2nd slowest. Railguns (forge gun, sniper, gauss rifle) should be supersonic. Lasers should remain hitscan. I'm not sure about electrolasers (scrambler pistol, scrambler rifles), they could be between projectile and railgun. Add bullet drop: sniping would take more skill. The type of gun should determine the level of bullet drop; lasers get no bullet drop, while regular projectiles get the most bullet drop. Plasma weapons: plasma weapons like the AR for example should get more range (distance until bullets disappear), and have damage based on range. They would be kind of like inverted laser rifles. The increased range will make long range AR use possible than before, but make long range use truly require skill since damage decreases over distance and rounds travel slowly. The new ballistic properties and damage dropoff over distance could remove the need for the hard range cap (disapearing shots when range is exceeded). The plasma weapons disappearing shots make sense because its plasma contained in bullet shape by an electromagnetic field, and the field has to break sooner or later. Railguns, and regular projectiles should not just disappear. Lasers should gradually diffuse and drop damage as it exceeds its range. This would be especially delicious when we have different types for the same roles. For example the current assault rifle and the upcoming gauss rifle are both basically assault rifles, but having their shots have different ballistics properties would make things way more diverse. CCP Nullarbor said travel time for shots would put a greater load on the servers, and it it would increase latency. It doesn't have to come now, but I would like this for when the servers are ready for it in the future.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2013.02.18 05:22:00 - [2] - Quote No one else wants?
Eris Ernaga Super Smash Bros Friends United Seeking Influence and Notoriety 26	Posted - 2013.02.18 05:27:00 - [3] - Quote If they couldn't make a sniper that didn't have bullet drop unless they were shooting really far away (outside of the map) I would be a bit depressed.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2013.02.18 05:27:00 - [4] - Quote I think these are fantastic. I'm in!
Terry Webber Gothic Wars Consortium 35	Posted - 2013.02.18 05:43:00 - [5] - Quote I would like these suggestions sometime in the future, especially bullet drop for sniper rifles. It could help limit those HUGE long distance shots
Avinash Decker BetaMax. 25	Posted - 2013.02.18 20:53:00 - [6] - Quote I support this idea
Buster Friently Rosen Association 27	Posted - 2013.02.18 22:10:00 - [7] - Quote Terry Webber wrote: I would like these suggestions sometime in the future, especially bullet drop for sniper rifles. It could help limit those HUGE long distance shots Bullet drop won't affect sniper targeting, but travel time for projectiles will. I fully support this idea with one caveat: what kind of processing power would be required to support ballistics if widely implemented? I don't know, but if the question turned out to be ballistics or larger battles, I might side with larger battles.
Avinash Decker BetaMax. 25	Posted - 2013.02.19 22:08:00 - [8] - Quote Maybe you should put this in your immersion thread.
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 389	Posted - 2013.02.19 22:11:00 - [9] - Quote Not so much for plasma being the slowest, it is compact lighting basically.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 435	Posted - 2013.02.19 22:15:00 - [10] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: Not so much for plasma being the slowest, it is compact lighting basically. This is true http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVXy-ZqqZ-g But I would like to see complex physics come into Dust, but down the road. CCP has to make money first, then we profit.

Avinash Decker BetaMax. 25	Posted - 2013.02.19 22:18:00 - [11] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: Not so much for plasma being the slowest, it is compact lighting basically. Its for balance reasons I guess , since plasma are similar to blasters like in Eve online so thus do more damage up close ( or tat least they should in dust ) and blasters are made for close range . It shouldnt be really slow but enough that u have to lead your shots mid to long range .
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 389	Posted - 2013.02.19 22:21:00 - [12] - Quote Avinash Decker wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: Not so much for plasma being the slowest, it is compact lighting basically. Its for balance reasons I guess , since plasma are similar to blasters like in Eve online so thus do more damage up close ( or tat least they should in dust ) and blasters are made for close range . It shouldnt be really slow but enough that u have to lead your shots mid to long range . That's where better ballistics come in, being a highly radiant energy it would disperse at those ranges but maintain it's velocity
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 24	Posted - 2013.02.20 00:34:00 - [13] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: Not so much for plasma being the slowest, it is compact lighting basically. This is true http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVXy-ZqqZ-g But I would like to see complex physics come into Dust, but down the road. CCP has to make money first, then we profit. Step 1: We test for CCP Step 2: CCP makes monies Step 3: ???? Step 4: Profit
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2013.02.20 00:42:00 - [14] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: Not so much for plasma being the slowest, it is compact lighting basically. Lightning is plasma, but not all plasma is lightning. Lightning works very differently from our plasma guns anyway. Our guns package chunks of plasma in electromagnetic fields, and blast them out. The force of the mechanisms of of the gun is what determines the speed of the shot. I don't know how fast the plasma is shot out by the mechanism from the lore, but giving it slow speed would make ARs use at longer ranges harder and require more skill since long range is the laser's and sniper's domain, and not the AR's.
Avinash Decker BetaMax. 25	Posted - 2013.02.20 06:18:00 - [15] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: Not so much for plasma being the slowest, it is compact lighting basically. Lightning is plasma, but not all plasma is lightning. Lightning works very differently from our plasma guns anyway. Our guns package chunks of plasma in electromagnetic fields, and blast them out. The force of the mechanisms of of the gun is what determines the speed of the shot. I don't know how fast the plasma is shot out by the mechanism from the lore, but giving it slow speed would make ARs use at longer ranges harder and require more skill since long range is the laser's and sniper's domain, and not the AR's. They can still have specialized Ars for long range like they do now.
Rachoi HavoK Core 17	Posted - 2013.02.20 08:17:00 - [16] - Quote Kagoeshi, i rather dislike debating with you, since your ideas are genius a good chunk of the time. this one... i'm afraid i have to. the issue with the whole disappearing shots with the plasma weaponry is because the holding field for the little plasma charges fails after a certain distance, and the plasma disperses into the air. that is the reason why the ARs atleast have a flat range they can fire. as for the Railgun Tech, those are... simply put... sublight projectiles. they are going beyond mark 10 in speed when they come out of the barrel, and those speeds tear apart nearly any slug, even depleted uranium goes to dust when fired from a railgun after a certain distance, just because of the immense speed and force on them. those will only go so far before they're little dust balls. now the minmitar projectile tech... that is debatable, they could keep firing farther, very much so in fact, but doing that also puts the effective range of an SMG a bit too far, as well as the HMG, and beyond the range they're going now, the bullets would start to fall end over end, because i dont think the Minmatar use the same kind of firing tech we do, so means no gunpowder how we see it, possibly no barrel rifling beyond the bare working minimum. granted, that would still help, but i think bullet stability drops to a point where it just doesn't scratch shields at that point. the Electro-Lasers, as you put them... i think those are probably a good idea on firing speeds, but about it. your ideas are great, but not really.. founded like most of your others are. i don't want to burst your bubble... the Flaylock will probably drop or burst after a certain point, and the new Shoulder Cannon that should be out Soon[tm] would pitter out after a certain point, like the AR. grand ideas...
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2013.02.20 08:46:00 - [17] - Quote Rachoi wrote: Kagoeshi, i rather dislike debating with you, since your ideas are genius a good chunk of the time. this one... i'm afraid i have to. the issue with the whole disappearing shots with the plasma weaponry is because the holding field for the little plasma charges fails after a certain distance, and the plasma disperses into the air. that is the reason why the ARs atleast have a flat range they can fire. as for the Railgun Tech, those are... simply put... sublight projectiles. they are going beyond mark 10 in speed when they come out of the barrel, and those speeds tear apart nearly any slug, even depleted uranium goes to dust when fired from a railgun after a certain distance, just because of the immense speed and force on them. those will only go so far before they're little dust balls. now the minmitar projectile tech... that is debatable, they could keep firing farther, very much so in fact, but doing that also puts the effective range of an SMG a bit too far, as well as the HMG, and beyond the range they're going now, the bullets would start to fall end over end, because i dont think the Minmatar use the same kind of firing tech we do, so means no gunpowder how we see it, possibly no barrel rifling beyond the bare working minimum. granted, that would still help, but i think bullet stability drops to a point where it just doesn't scratch shields at that point. the Electro-Lasers, as you put them... i think those are probably a good idea on firing speeds, but about it. your ideas are great, but not really.. founded like most of your others are. i don't want to burst your bubble... the Flaylock will probably drop or burst after a certain point, and the new Shoulder Cannon that should be out Soon[tm] would pitter out after a certain point, like the AR. grand ideas... I stated in the OP that the hard range limit for plasma weapons should stay, but that they should be extended. I do get that plasma weapons have their shots bundled into shape by EM fields that eventually collapse. Railguns may be mach 10 in EVE ships, but infantry weapons are of a mach smaller scale to justify the lesser speed. They would still only be second to lasers in the way I'm proposing. Spread increase over distance, bullet drop (they would have the most bullet drop in my idea), and maybe some other factors could be used to counteract the range increase for regular regular projectiles. I'm not sure what you mean by this phrase "the bullets would start to fall end over end".
Avinash Decker BetaMax. 25	Posted - 2013.02.20 20:37:00 - [18] - Quote Dont know if this is relevant anymore , but heres an page about bullets and other guns( if you look) from the offical Eve wiki http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Bullets
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2013.02.21 01:04:00 - [19] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by this phrase "the bullets would start to fall end over end". Without a rifled barrel, bullets start to tumble through the air like rocks. They lose any accuracy they might otherwise have as air currents knock them off course. This happens because of the shape of the bullet (that we all know today) is only aerodynamic as long it maintains its spin. It also loses a lot of its penetrating power due to the fact that it isn't hitting "point first", and is slowed considerably due to wind resistance. This is the reason why ye olde black powder muskets were notoriously inaccurate beyond a certain range. The projectile was not aerodynamic, the barrel was not rifled, and so the ball would fly wildly off course. As such, any weapon that fires solid projectiles that does not use a rifled barrel will be practically useless beyond their "optimum range".
Rachoi HavoK Core 17	Posted - 2013.02.21 01:11:00 - [20] - Quote thank you Hagi, that was exactly what i ment. and i do see your point, but firing a railgun slower MIGHT work, but that is up to the devs to decide, i rather like that they are sub-light projectiles

Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.02.21 01:32:00 - [21] - Quote CCP guys mentioned that calculating all the projectiles for ARs etc would be too big a burden for the PS3, technically speaking. That said, of course ballistics help make games better. I think at the very least sniper rifles require some real ballistic qualities in order to make it actually take some skill to do. It'd be cool if they could do more than that, but they didn't sound very hopeful about automatic weapons having any kind of actual projectiles.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2013.02.21 01:33:00 - [22] - Quote It seems the issue is between balistics as we know it now, and balistics as put forth by the lore of New Eden. I've mentioned this before this forum, but I'll post again now, because I think it fits with the lore. Damage Drop Off. The Laser Rifle is a perfect example of how to treat balistics in New Eden (or at the very least, a good place to start). It is very effective within it's "optimum range" but get too close, or too far away, and the damage it does is lessened. As Rachoi has pointed out in regards to the Sniper Rifle, it is a Railgun. As such, the projectile is consumed as it travels, leaving less of the round to impact at longer ranges. Decrease the mass (which is what is happening), and you decrease the amount of force the projectile can impart upon its target. Meaning less damage. As it stands now, when I play a sniper, I can hit someone wearing a Scout Suit in their big toe from across the entire map, and still the same damage to them as if I hit them square in the chest from only 100 meters away. Part of that is due the Hit Scan mechanic we currently have, but the rest (full damage at range) comes from a lack of any kind of balistics being utilized. Since plasma weapons operate in a similar fashion (their EM fields deteriorating the further the round travels) it would be easy to imagine the same kind of "future balistics" being applied to them as well. And we already covered non rifled SMG's so it could affect anything falling under that category as well, as the shields easy deflect and absorb the kinetic force. I would like to see "Bullet Travel Time" for weapons, but it couldn't apply to all of them. The Laser Rifle being the top of the list as the beam obviously travels at the speed of light, travel time becomes moot. The Sniper Rifle is another. The "round" is travelling at 2800 meters per second, so even on a 5k map the travel time would be negligable. But having the damage drop off as the range increases would have similar effects to what is
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2013.02.21 22:11:00 - [23] - Quote pew pew pew!
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3068	Posted - 2013.02.27 07:36:00 - [24] - Quote Weapon type differentiation would still be nice, doesn't have to be handled this way
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2013.02.27 08:08:00 - [25] - Quote Rail gun sniper would still be affected by travel time at extreme range. Shots would need to be lead, accurate bullet drop would be a negligible number of inches best ignored. Plasma weapons are the shortest range type, so the current range is fine. All future racial variants will out range it. The plasma vanishing is pretty accurate to how it would work, plasma cools and dispersion over time to nothing. The ar does full damage to a range then loses damage til it vanishes currently, real plasma weapon would do similar. Plasma weapons could be made in many ways, slow plasma balls in some games are like ball lightning. The current plasma weapons are particle accelerators, so would be faster then rail projectiles due to lower mass. Coming plasma cannon may be of the ball type. Plasma weapons having blue or green muzzle flash/tracers would help show it's not a bullet but plasma. The current projectile weapons are short ranged and high rof, so effect of ballistics would be small and load high. Not worth the trouble. In the future, a minmatar sniper should have drop and travel time similar to modern weapons, or even exaggerated like battlefield sniper bullets. A minmatar rifle with bullet physics and low rate of fire to reduce load on system would be nice. Say 200 rounds per minute with 340m/s speed? Would give nice drop and be accurate for a silenced subsonic load as well if we get them in future. So in summery plasma ar/shotgun, projectile smg/hmg, not worth performance hit to change. long range hybrid (snipers, rails, blasters) would be nice with travel time, drop would be to small to matter but could be faked by firing down at slight angle to match calculated drop at max range. energy weapons should be hitscan, electro lasers still work at speed of electricity through a cunductor. [*] long range projectile(minmatar sniper, mass driver, future rifle and artillery) should use bullet physics with at least travel time and drop. windage and such would be nice, but not neeeded.


Pages: [1] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page