DUST Search - Heavies: The part of the argument I never see on these forums.

DropKickSuicide wrote:

KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:

BattleCry1791 wrote:

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OP post
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Balancing with ISK,
If you want to do balancing, forget everything about isk cost. Create a balance of operational use because that's what matters in what's underpowered and what's not. It's not the pricetag.
Additionally, free market is going to tune the prices according every items actual worth in usability.

In short: Forget balancing with isk prices.

Balancing with SP,
That can be done slightly, but it is usually very poor way to do it or at least has to be done using extreme caution. Why? If something is totally OP and as a result it's SP requirements are made high, the only result is that old players have access to that untuned OP asset and wipe the floor with the rest.

About heavies and HMGs:
They are fine. Sure they are terrible thing to face close by but so they should. They have plenty of strengths and plenty of weaknesses. Sure, you have to run away from them in some cases, but you have to smart enough to realize that. In other times, they are so easy to kill. Even the range isn't problem as you can easily pepper headshots for two seconds before HMG even start to get accurate. Repeat 2-3 times and presto.

If SP and ISK are not used to Balance anything then why are there differennt prices in the game?

Why not make EVERY dropsuit cost Xamount and EVERY weapon cost Xamount?

Why does better equipment cost more if cost is not a balencing factor?

Why do Dropships and Tanks cost more then LAVs? they are all Vehicles just with different jobs right?

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Talruum Tezztarozza Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 74	Posted - 2013.02.07 13:38:00 - [31] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: it is a fact, the disadvantages are no real disadvantage, merely pseudo ones. No a disadvantage is still a disadvantage just not a game-breaking one that make heavies useless. And smart player know how to compensate those things. But that doesn't make a tool he use OP. He's just good. If you have no problem with range disadvantage as a SMG Logi. Does that meant SMG have no range disadvantage whatsoever and sniper range have no advantage over you ? Does that mean SMG range is also OP ?? Or does it simply mean you are a good player who know how to choose your range of engagement ??? Regarding speed disadvantage, I didn't mean it as speed to move around the map. More like mobility during an encounter. A capable player can dance around a rock without a heavy able to shoot him ONCE. Try it. I know you can also do it. It's simply physically impossible for us with walking/running speed we got.
Rei Shepard Spectre II 72	Posted - 2013.02.07 14:50:00 - [32] - Quote Quote: This makes no real sense, even HMG of our own time have 0 spull up time and pinpoint accuracy at a fairly far distance. I saw the movie in the link and i would like to see him do that with it equiped with a sling over his shoulder and carried, and see how much of that accuracy is left. sure ingame you are using an Exo but its attached to a sling and not an harnass so not all the recoil should be absorbed.
Kam Elto KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 6	Posted - 2013.02.07 16:06:00 - [33] - Quote just give everyone a big stick, two stones and the same amount of shields/armor. it won't be fun but by god nobody will be percieved as being OP.
Dagon Cthulhu Clone Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2013.02.07 16:20:00 - [34] - Quote im looking forward to when its paired up with the winmatar heavy suit and any kind of boost it gets
Jariel Manton SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 210	Posted - 2013.02.07 16:27:00 - [35] - Quote You make a very very valid point. I'm inclined to say that yes the HMG range needs to be nerfed. I absolutely hate popping a corner and seeing a heavy. However, the price of these suits and the sp required is a nerf on its own. People that are running these suits are already paying a heavy price in isk. So, when i came to this thread i was all about nerfing HMG range but after reading your arguments about isk cost i believe that the current situation is fine. I'll just have to keep using some team work to take all you fat suits down. ; )
Shadow Archeus Wraith Shadow Guards 38	Posted - 2013.02.07 16:35:00 - [36] - Quote The hmg is not by any means op......yes being slow IS a disadvantage if I get caught in the open I'm screwed The range is fine as well the people complaining r noobs who run in the open thinking nobody saw them...... Things I am WILLING to accept as a nerf 1. A decrease in time to overheat.....so you can't just lay on the trigger.....maybe make it so if you LAY on the trigger it overheats after 200-250 rounds 2. A decrease in accuracy at range....but only slightly....and only as long as the rounds fired do the same damage at range as they would up close 3.a spool up time..have it start firing but it takes one second to reach optimum fire rate 4. A small and I do mean SMALL increase to recoil I'll agree to a SMALL nerf but if u want decreased range u can forget it Cuz at this point any scrub CAN pick me off in my heavy suit with militia gear if he catches me out in the open The crappy part of the range argument is that ALOT of the people complaining are NOT using cover....they just try and Rambo folks get OWNED then cry that someone's cheating or using something op
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1039	Posted - 2013.02.07 16:45:00 - [37] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Necrodermis wrote: why do we bother having assault suits and scout suits? logi suits and heavies are the only decent ones in the game. if a squad levels around 3 heavies and 1 logi they can pretty much just walk through the level unhindered. especially in CQC. turn a corner fire the HMG everyone in the hallway is now dead. they can even take a shotgun to the back of the head and have enough time to turn and spray the gun again. Is that why there's only heavies/logis being used in corp battles currently? Oh wait, pretty much everyone is scouts and assaults. This is correct. mobility in 8v8 is king it seems. Hoping that when we go 16 v16+ we can' incorporate our heavies more
Vance Alken Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 94	Posted - 2013.02.07 17:01:00 - [38] - Quote DropKickSuicide wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: BattleCry1791 wrote: . . OP post . . Balancing with ISK, If you want to do balancing, forget everything about isk cost. Create a balance of operational use because that's what matters in what's underpowered and what's not. It's not the pricetag. Additionally, free market is going to tune the prices according every items actual worth in usability. In short: Forget balancing with isk prices. Balancing with SP, That can be done slightly, but it is usually very poor way to do it or at least has to be done using extreme caution. Why? If something is totally OP and as a result it's SP requirements are made high, the only result is that old players have access to that untuned OP asset and wipe the floor with the rest. About heavies and HMGs: They are fine. Sure they are terrible thing to face close by but so they should. They have plenty of strengths and plenty of weaknesses. Sure, you have to run away from them in some cases, but you have to smart enough to realize that. In other times, they are so easy to kill. Even the range isn't problem as you can easily pepper headshots for two seconds before HMG even start to get accurate. Repeat 2-3 times and presto. If SP and ISK are not used to Balance anything then why are there differennt prices in the game? Why not make EVERY dropsuit cost Xamount and EVERY weapon cost Xamount? Why does better equipment cost more if cost is not a balencing factor? Why do Dropships and Tanks cost more then LAVs? they are all Vehicles just with different jobs right? ISK can't be used to balance because Soon(tm) we will have an open market where prices are set by players.
Billytook mandrag Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 2	Posted - 2013.02.07 19:13:00 - [39] - Quote Quote: So an effective range reduction The gun isn't very effective at a medium range actually, pretty easy to loose a fire fight with those things at a med range.
Knarf Black Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 397	Posted - 2013.02.07 19:20:00 - [40] - Quote Meh. I would appreciate if the HMG had a split second spin up time before shooting, but the range is fine. Just don't keep attacking from the same position.

Lance 2ballzStrong SyNergy Gaming 642	Posted - 2013.02.07 19:53:00 - [41] - Quote usrevenge2 wrote: HMG needs a spool up time spread needs to be a little wider that's all that is really needed imo. lol spool up time... smh if they add a spool time, which no minigun has in real life though (although DUST shouldn't depict real life, but it's just funny that a minigun has spool time) I'll just be walking around revving up my gun. The spread is already bad. Reducing range slightly, and increase the build up speed is fine.
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2013.02.07 20:26:00 - [42] - Quote Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: usrevenge2 wrote: HMG needs a spool up time spread needs to be a little wider that's all that is really needed imo. lol spool up time... smh if they add a spool time, which no minigun has in real life though (although DUST shouldn't depict real life, but it's just funny that a minigun has spool time) I'll just be walking around revving up my gun. The spread is already bad. Reducing range slightly, and increase the build up speed is fine. Yes, miniguns have a spool up time as the barrels have to be accelerated to the required RPM. The HMG does not however as it features a counter-rotating gear system that compensates for the immense torque produced when pulling the trigger. This is the reason the gun is initially inaccurate until it is up to operating speed. In mounted miniguns the spool up time is very short, but noticeable. A carried minigun would have to feature a much longer spool up time for it to even be usable by an infantry unit. The HMG is specifically designed to operate without the need for a noticeable spool up. So not, it doesn't need that at all. On a side note...where was all the crying when an AR could hit 20 headshots in a row from across the map because you had a magic little dot and no recoil? Remember when the heavy was garbage and any decent AR could kill it no problem?
Jotun Hiem Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 412	Posted - 2013.02.07 22:49:00 - [43] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: correction, just went up against a heavy/logi team, we won, but barely. top 5 on both teams all had over 10 deaths. It was a hell of a fight. honestly, the biggest issue going against a team like that is running into a group of 3 heavies in relatively close quarters is a death sentence, unless you run, and you run fast. heavies need some work. particularly in the offence dpt. currently, I can usually get most heavies to half armor before I'm dead. the kicker is, if there are two heavies, I'm dead, but if two assaults run into a heavy, the odds are still in fatty's favor, unless the assault guys are using adv/prototype gear. tone down the HMG a bit, make heavies have to work for their kills, or at least not be able to walk around corners holding R1. furthermore, I still suggest a 33% chance of a catastrophic explosion whenever the trigger on a sniper rifle is pulled. ... I'm confused. Why would it be bad that two assault suits lose to a heavy when the heavy's in his optimal kill zone? I'm so confused right now. You might as well get mad at shotgunners.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2013.02.07 22:55:00 - [44] - Quote Ion Crush wrote: I could see reducing the time it takes for the HMG to overheat as a possible balance. Reduce the amount of time the heavy can just simply spray bullets at someone farther away will reduce the amount of kills they get at range. Same for laser rifles- it's literally impossible to overheat any above advanced.
Polish Hammer Conspiratus Immortalis 300	Posted - 2013.02.07 22:57:00 - [45] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: Yes, miniguns have a spool up time as the barrels have to be accelerated to the required RPM. The HMG does not however as it features a counter-rotating gear system that compensates for the immense torque produced when pulling the trigger. This is the reason the gun is initially inaccurate until it is up to operating speed. In mounted miniguns the spool up time is very short, but noticeable. A carried minigun would have to feature a much longer spool up time for it to even be usable by an infantry unit. The HMG is specifically designed to operate without the need for a noticeable spool up. So not, it doesn't need that at all. On a side note...where was all the crying when an AR could hit 20 headshots in a row from across the map because you had a magic little dot and no recoil? Remember when the heavy was garbage and any decent AR could kill it no problem? If I had awards to give you, I would. Thank you for knowing what you're talking about....
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 248	Posted - 2013.02.07 23:38:00 - [46] - Quote The heavies cry about laser rifles and shotguns, which are individual weapons. But lasers and shottys are the bane of EVERY merc on the field, heavies just have a harder time running away (thus the need for teamwork). The main issue non-heavies (those that HAVE an issue) have is that the combination of a heavy suit + the HMG is too much. Massive HP, massive damage, and accuracy that improves the longer you fire. Of course, letting other suits fit the HMG would not solve this, but make it worse since the HMG user would be more agile in other suits. The only real way to tweak it would be to either increase the spread or reduce the range. Of course, to counter balance reducing the range or increasing the spread, I would be fine with increasing the clip size by a 300~400 rounds, the capacity by 500~700 rounds, and reducing the heat build up a bit. I think that would be a fair trade off. The HMG is meant for spraying bullets, not precision shooting, so when in it's intended range, having a larger clip and slower cooldown would benefit it the most, especially if you increase the spread.
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 248	Posted - 2013.02.07 23:43:00 - [47] - Quote Polish Hammer wrote: Altina McAlterson wrote: Yes, miniguns have a spool up time as the barrels have to be accelerated to the required RPM. The HMG does not however as it features a counter-rotating gear system that compensates for the immense torque produced when pulling the trigger. This is the reason the gun is initially inaccurate until it is up to operating speed. In mounted miniguns the spool up time is very short, but noticeable. A carried minigun would have to feature a much longer spool up time for it to even be usable by an infantry unit. The HMG is specifically designed to operate without the need for a noticeable spool up. So not, it doesn't need that at all. On a side note...where was all the crying when an AR could hit 20 headshots in a row from across the map because you had a magic little dot and no recoil? Remember when the heavy was garbage and any decent AR could kill it no problem? If I had awards to give you, I would. Thank you for knowing what you're talking about.... And to Altina, there was MASSIVE QQ from the community about AR's, but CCP decided to wait for the new buid to fix it because we still had many lag and hit detection issues. The HMG had no such issues since they fire so many rounds so rapidly in a cone. That is all.


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