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Nerevar Whitestrake
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
8
   |
Posted - 2013.02.02 22:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
First of all, as near as I can tell, this game has been in development for at least 7 years. Why does the whole thing feel like an afterthought? It seems only vaguely connected to the EVE universe. I have seen more complete, well-balanced, and well thought-out multiplayer freeware games done by hobbyists. CCP is calling it a beta, but as far as I'm able to tell, this is an alpha-stage game at best. There are what now? Three battle modes, one of which is a slight variation on one of the first two, and two of them have completely broken spawning? Major game mechanics are unfinished, or simply non-existent with nothing but an IOU from CCP to tell us it's even (maybe) going to be in the game.
Where are the PvE missions that are a daily staple in EVE life, for the purposes of getting money, getting mods, developing teamwork, skills, etc.? CCP says they will introduce this, and race-specific dropsuits and weaponry "soon". This is a problem, since they were saying these would be in the game when they announced it what? Five YEARS ago? Why were these things not front-loaded into the game, then tweaked and balanced, even if only by staff members testing the game, rather than introducing them one at a time, necessitating going over everything else each time, to tweak and balance? Why are they doing pre-alpha testing in what they claim is a beta? Why is this mechanic being introduced now, requiring a new skill tree, after making a bunch of people train up skills that CCP knew they weren't going to put in the finished game from the very beginning? That's not good game development or planning, that's just trolling. Where is the weapon customization? Again, the answer is "soon", and again, my question is why soon, and not a year or more ago, upon beta release? Why after so much development time, does Dust not even have many of the basic features of a decent FPS?
Where are the common areas where we can actually talk 'face to face', and otherwise socialize? Don't say the pre-drop staging area, because you get between 15 and 70 seconds to try and say anything before drop. Also, if you don't have, nor are able to get a keyboard and mouse, or headphones, you are effectively a deaf/mute to your teammates. This may sound ridiculous to many of you, but I find it ridiculous that CCP would bend over backwards to make sure that 'Pay-To-Win' is not a problem in their game store, but make no effort toward that end for player interfacing. Let's face it. The reason a lot of people play, is because it's new, and because they can't afford much else at the moment. For cosmos' sake, even if you have a keyboard and mouse, you actually have to effectively PAUSE THE GAME in the middle of a running firefight to communicate anything to your teammates, beyond 'HELP! I've fallen and I can't get up!' And that's only if they notice there is someone saying something, and can take the time to pause the game themselves, just to read it. Every squad leader has a list of commands that they may give to their squad. Their squadmates, on the other hand have no such similar list of 'requests' that would allow them to accomplish their given goal. Where is the 'request reinforcements at this position' or 'request anti-armor at this position', or some such communications menu options?
As a related matter, if the entire point of the freakin' game is to capture and/or hold planetary assets and defenses, why has CCP so poorly designed the maps that if this were the real military, the general reviewing their excuse for defensive emplacements would have them summarily shot for negligence and/or aiding the enemy? The maps are open. Great. Now, what are we supposed to do about the complete lack of adequate cover or defensible position when trying to defend...well...ANY point on the map? 100, 200, 300 yards to the next available (often poor) cover is ridiculous, when the entire map is ringed by hills, often covered with snipers and forge guns. Even vehicles don't tend to make it very far in such maps. This is supposed to be the future, right? It's supposed to be high-tech and Sci-Fi, right? Where is the evidence of that technology? Why can't a logistical, or even assault suit erect some kind of temporary barrier? Even Star Trek online has the option to throw down a personal, destructible cover shield when in a firefight to make your position defensible. If you didn't want to go that high-tech, you could even go with some kind of explanation like: 'This device utilizes a soil coagulant and shaped force fields to erect a short, low wall for squadmates to use as cover."
In short, where is ANY of the complexity or planning we have come to expect from the EVE universe? The question becomes even more urgent when considering again, that 5 years ago, when announcing and showcasing Dust 514, CCP told us the game had already been under development by two whole offices of people for two years before that. Then consider that it was probably in the planning stages for years still before that. I've been watching the interview videos, and the presentations at Fanfest, etc., and when discussing major, basic game mechanics that should have been planned out, tested and executed to at least a major degree years ago, all we get is "Well, we're thinking a lot about that, and we're just not sure what we're going to do yet." Which begs the question: Why the f**k not?!
Or my personal favorite: "Yeah, we've recently been considering that there might need to be some kind of orbital defense platform to defend planetary assets against EVE pilots." YA THINK?!
The list goes on and on. We could talk about turret placement on maps, for instance. Most not only don't have an adequate field of fire, they very often don't even have adequate LANES of fire.
After such a long development and planning time, it is simply inexcusable that so many of these major features they've been talking about for years are non-existent, broken, or otherwise wholly unplanned for. |
Full Metal Kitten
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
152
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Posted - 2013.02.02 23:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
With all due respect, this could have been written far more constructively and without an entitled condescending attitude. |
J Lav
Lost-Legion
28
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Posted - 2013.02.03 00:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
Behind all of the condescension are some good points. Not only are you disappointed, but there is a significant disparity between what has been promised in presentations and what the beta is providing.
I get the idea though, if it's any comfort, that the beta is being used to test various aspects of the game individually. I've seen maps come and go, so even though there are only a few on right now, there are others that have gone away. The same applies to different game modes, with variations of skirmish and others.
Developing a framework as massive as the developers have in mind takes time. Determining which aspects of those frameworks hold the most promise may be the focus of this beta. Then they can refine the most desired aspects first. To determine those aspects they need to get people's input. When players have the chance to play different modes, they have to restrict what the players do to get any meaningful results. I suspect then that what they are doing is preventing players from reverting to what they feel comfortable in, at the expense of getting enough people to try another mode. To do this, the eliminate one mode and make us all play the new mode to get results on it. It would take too long to give us everything at once, and then hope that people don't all play one part, to the exclusion of other parts.
The other aspect I see is that if this has been in development for as long as you say, perhaps involving a player base is a great idea to get out of the 5 year old mindset you are in from when you started. Crowd sourcing funding through in game purchases is also another valuable revenue stream to keep this ball rolling. There are a lot of reasons CCP has for being tight lipped on a lot of its ideas progress, probably the most is what I mentioned above; Garnering focused responses in a manageable format. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
363
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 02:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nerevar Whitestrake wrote:Where are the common areas where we can actually talk 'face to face', and otherwise socialize? Don't say the pre-drop staging area, because you get between 15 and 70 seconds to try and say anything before drop. Also, if you don't have, nor are able to get a keyboard and mouse, or headphones, you are effectively a deaf/mute to your teammates.
Corp channel. And if you don't have kb or headset, your SOL whether there is a socialization area or not.
Quote:As a related matter, if the entire point of the freakin' game is to capture and/or hold planetary assets and defenses, why has CCP so poorly designed the maps that if this were the real military, the general reviewing their excuse for defensive emplacements would have them summarily shot for negligence and/or aiding the enemy?
It's a game, it's not supposed to be realistic. There needs to be a balance between defense and offense, and defense can't overwhelm the offence just because their emplacements cover every nook and cranny.
Otherwise mosty valid critique. |
Snaps Tremor
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
41
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 02:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Forget about the idea of a seven year development time. It's obvious the engine switch effectively reset any progress made up to that point in the name of future-proofing Dust's eventual move to PS4 or other platforms.
It happens. Sometimes things just don't work out. Dust's first build didn't, so they canned it and tried something else, and without the 'what were they doing all this time!!' fallback a lot of the points in your post are nullified. |
Mars El'Theran
Red Rogue Squadron
Heart 0f Darkness
52
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 03:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nerevar Whitestrake wrote:First of all, as near as I can tell, this game has been in development for at least 7 years. Why does the whole thing feel like an afterthought?
I'm not sure how you mean afterthought. It's Beta, not full release; expect there to be unfinished features. Also, plenty of features are removed from this build while other things are tested.
Quote:Where are the PvE missions that are a daily staple in EVE life, for the purposes of getting money, getting mods, developing teamwork, skills, etc.? Where is the weapon customization? Again, the answer is "soon", and again, my question is why soon, and not a year or more ago, upon beta release? Why after so much development time, does Dust not even have many of the basic features of a decent FPS?
Non-existant atm, but I'm sure someone is working on them. Chances are, the PvE modes will be much less prone to issues as they rely less on PvP systems and have a fair amount of AI interaction which tends to be easier to calculate potential issues from. Of course, I could be wrong, but either way, Dust is generally focused on PvP and you get drops from the battles as salvage.
Quote:Where are the common areas where we can actually talk 'face to face', and otherwise socialize? Where is the 'request reinforcements at this position' or 'request anti-armor at this position', or some such communications menu options?
Non-existent, as well they should be at this stage. I'm happy with that.
Quote:As a related matter, if the entire point of the freakin' game is to capture and/or hold planetary assets and defenses, why has CCP so poorly designed the maps that if this were the real military, the general reviewing their excuse for defensive emplacements would have them summarily shot for negligence and/or aiding the enemy? ... This is supposed to be the future, right? It's supposed to be high-tech and Sci-Fi, right? Where is the evidence of that technology? Why can't a logistical, or even assault suit erect some kind of temporary barrier?
I believe it may yet be possible to do something like this, for which we have Installations on the market. That may even be for designing your own defenses if you happen to own territory though. As for barriers and landscape, these are actually civilian installations, and as such, the defenses are less likely to be clearly thought out and may in fact be hastily erected. |
Nerevar Whitestrake
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 19:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
Snaps Tremor wrote:Forget about the idea of a seven year development time. It's obvious the engine switch effectively reset any progress made up to that point in the name of future-proofing Dust's eventual move to PS4 or other platforms.
It happens. Sometimes things just don't work out. Dust's first build didn't, so they canned it and tried something else, and without the 'what were they doing all this time!!' fallback a lot of the points in your post are nullified.
Not really, as most of what I point to should have been handled during conceptual as well as actual development and planning from the ground up. Where is the vision or scope, beyond the meta-gaming aspect of Dust 514 that is it's entire premise? Even if, as you say, they were denied the ability to use the progams they wished, then they should have been careful to implement a contingency plan for that eventuality, that would still allow them to fulfill their goals and promises. Even so, this still does not allow for many excuses as to the conceptual failings of the game.
For instance, right now, this very moment, DARPA has developed early stage prototypes of powered armor suits for soldiers. It can allow a soldier to run for 4 hours at roughly 35 mph without rest, carrying 300+ lbs. of gear, with the goal of also allowing the soldier to jump 3 meters into the air. All it's missing is a decent power source.
So then I'm to believe that thousands of years into the future of a galaxy riven by war, where there are brain implants that transfer your consciousness to a new clone upon death, that their powered armor suits aren't even as good as our early-stage prototypes? The thing about science fiction, is that it needs to have SOME basis in scientific thought or theory, and must play to the known realities concerning them. Our science fact already trumps CCP's science fiction.
As far as I can tell, the weapons haven't been overpowered, like everyone seems to complain about. It's that the dropsuits themselves are underpowered, and do nothing to make you feel like a soldier of the future, so much as that your character is some kind of out of shape couch potato, who's running into battle in a suit that limits mobility considerably, and that either you, or your enemies could sneeze their way through. If you don't believe me, feel free to play one of the Crysis games, and then immediately switch back to Dust. I guarantee, that you will very quickly see measurable differences between them both conceptually, and in execution. Crysis seems to perfectly showcase what fighting in a military-grade powered armor suit would be, in it's actuality.
CCP's legal troubles are none of our concern. Poor conceptualization and execution, when measured against promises made however, are indeed our concern. If for no other reason than because they have asked us to test their game and offer feedback.
I take no real pleasure in this evaluation. For a number of years, I played EVE online, and loved it. For reasons I won't go into here, I had to quit. But ever since then, I have waited for the day when I could get back into EVE, if only on the ground. I have dearly missed it's scope and complexity. So you might imagine my supreme disappointment at this...simplistic offering. |
Nerevar Whitestrake
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 20:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Quote:As a related matter, if the entire point of the freakin' game is to capture and/or hold planetary assets and defenses, why has CCP so poorly designed the maps that if this were the real military, the general reviewing their excuse for defensive emplacements would have them summarily shot for negligence and/or aiding the enemy?
It's a game, it's not supposed to be realistic. There needs to be a balance between defense and offense, and defense can't overwhelm the offence just because their emplacements cover every nook and cranny.
Otherwise mosty valid critique.[/quote]
It's science fiction. I'm not asking for realism. I'm asking for logical consistency within the known story of EVE and Dust 514, as well as known player behaviors. Also, while yes it is just a game, it is a game that springs forth from and will be imbedded within the EVE universe. In EVE, as in Dust, the loss of assets are real losses that one will have to work to replace. In that at least, CCP did indeed strive for realism.
The entire premise of the game, is that we are soldiers working to capture and/or defend EVE player assets, in real time. There will be defenders, and aggressors. In that reality, there IS no balance between offense and defense. The defenders automatically have the advantage. They will be the ones holding all the objectives to start, and the ones who've built and managed much of the defenses. It SHOULD be hard to pry a defender out of an objective, in order to capture it. Otherwise, I guarantee that interaction with Dust 514 will be useless, and somewhat unappetizing to an EVE player who's looking at spending a billion ISK or more, erecting planetary facilities.
In this, CCP has not offered us even a dry run. In Skirmish mode for instance, the closest mode of gameplay to what most actual Dust 514 gameplay will indeed be like, can you tell me what the differences are between the 'Attackers' or 'Defenders' sides? No you cannot. Because there is no difference. We all start on either end of the map, and make a disorganized rush toward capturing objectives, and maybe, MAYBE holding them.
As such, it is not even an adequate SIMULATION of the mechanic that is the primary reason for Dust's creation in the first place.
To say that there should be parity between attackers and defenders ignores completely all precedent set by the human players of EVE itself, and invalidates completely the entire purpose of Dust 514's exist . |
Nerevar Whitestrake
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 23:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quote:As a related matter, if the entire point of the freakin' game is to capture and/or hold planetary assets and defenses, why has CCP so poorly designed the maps that if this were the real military, the general reviewing their excuse for defensive emplacements would have them summarily shot for negligence and/or aiding the enemy? ... This is supposed to be the future, right? It's supposed to be high-tech and Sci-Fi, right? Where is the evidence of that technology? Why can't a logistical, or even assault suit erect some kind of temporary barrier?
I believe it may yet be possible to do something like this, for which we have Installations on the market. That may even be for designing your own defenses if you happen to own territory though. As for barriers and landscape, these are actually civilian installations, and as such, the defenses are less likely to be clearly thought out and may in fact be hastily erected.[/quote]
I'm not talking about installations on the market. I'm talking about an equipment item or suit ability that is the equivalent of sandbag fortification. You know, sandbags. The things a lot of soldiers carry around with them because they occasionally need to create a forward post in a hurry where there's inadequate cover, and with materials onhand? Where's the sci-fi, high tech equivalant of this extremely basic peice of military gear? Why am I not able to deploy such temporary fortifications when needed at a forward position, or objective I'm attempting to defend from incursion even if only from one direction? Besides, even your assertion concerning intallation fortifications doesn't give adequate answer to the problem. For instance, who will be deploying those installations? An EVE player, or some other Rear Echelon Motherf***er, who's only distantly involved in the battle, or the line troops that need them? When will they be allowed to deploy them? In real time, during battle, or only when no aggressors are on the map? How precisely will they really be able to orient and deploy such fortifications from afar, via the map, on the fly?
Lastly, while I realize it may be that you have not played EVE at all, I have. No installation, space station, or asset of any kind is left unattended/unguarded/undefended in EVE for any longer than absolutely necessary, if at all. There's a reason for that. There are no 'civilians' as you are thinking of them in EVE, outside of a few NPC's. Indeed, the necessity of defending EVE player assets and installations (even NPC stations in highsec) against the predations of EVE players is the entire reason for the Dust 514 game. We're just an expansion of already ongoing conflicts. They can put assets on the ground, but cannot come down and fight to keep them. That's where we come in. My point being that the only things more heavily defended and impregnable in the EVE universe than player-held assets, are NPC 'civilian' ones.
So if you heard from CCP that the reason turret and other defensive positioning sucks is because they're 'civilian' installations, it's nothing more than a contrivance to excuse either poor game development, laziness, or both. You may not like that, but I'm not here to coddle and faun over CCP, or other fans of this game. I'm here to call it like I see it. To be honest about what problems I see. Nothing more, but certainly nothing less, either.
This game has enormous potential for changing the very face of gaming. If it's done right, and done with vision. The most certain truth in all of this is that neither the game, nor CCP will rise properly to the occasion if we all just sit around and tell them what a great game they've made, except it needs a few minor adjustments. It needs more than a few, and we're missing positively HUGE chunks of content that should have been ready for player use from the beginning of open beta.
You know, like race-specific dropsuits and weaponry. Something that is a basic feature of EVE gameplay, and was promised from the earliest announcements concerning Dust 514. Why wasn't THAT at least ready? It's not like they had to come up with the idea, or even the major framework of it's implementation, art style, basic attributes, weapon types, etc.. It was all created and expanded upon in EVE years ago. It just needed a little translation to FPS.
They should be balancing all or most major features of the game together, rather than this piece-meal crap that forces testing and re-balancing everything else, every time they finally get a basic game mechanic that should already be there up and running. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
434
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 00:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
TLDR got some nid bits.
I'm going to get 2 tons of **** and a cherry on top for what I'm about to say.....
Beta...... |
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Django Quik
R.I.f.t
220
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Posted - 2013.02.06 02:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
You need to realise that testing for something as big and complex as Dust is planned to be is a very convoluted and drawn out process and trying to test too many things at once would be counter-productive. With an MMO there are only so many things that can be adequately tested in-house or even with QA outsourcing because they need thousands of people trying thousands of combinations of things.
This stuff needs to be tested in piece-meal chunks because it would quickly get too complicated with everything thrown in at once and the whole organised structure they have carefully planned out at CCP QA would fall apart. This is why we had different maps and styles back early last year. This is why there haven't been any new weapons for months and months. This is why there aren't options for plotting your own battlefield yet (but youtube seeding the universe and you'll see that this stuff is planned and SoonTM)
This is not just a beta, this is an MMO beta for one of the most ambitious projects probably ever. Learn some patience - do you remember what Eve was like when it first came out? Do you remember it being in beta for like 2 years? These things take time dude. |
usrevenge2
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
64
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Posted - 2013.02.06 03:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
anyone who was in the pre e3 build can tell you this game is completely different, the game mode is different, graphics are different, heck back then there was no aim assist. each build has had some big changes some good some bad, I really hope they put in single player and co-op content next, as much as i love killing people I would like to play alone or just with friends vs some ai. |
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