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KingBabar
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
443
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 11:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
Lag issues aside, there is something fundamentally wrong with this game mode.
- Its just not that tactical in Pub matches, especially on the bigger maps. Most games we just chase each other around in circles, hacking and moving on, its rare that someone actually defend the objectives. It lacks progression, as we had in the first build. This however I believe will be fixed in the form of more game modes to come.
So what is the major problem?
- I reckon that about 80% of the games I play end up as redline matches after just a couple of minutes. One team stomp the other, there's nothing new about that. The problem is to sit at the redline for 10 or so minutes fighting snipers, and just occationally fall back with 10 guys to stop the one single enemy that managed to sneak past and hack something. Way too many of the games I play are simply very boring.
Sollution?
- Make the damage the turrets do towards the MCC gain serious momentum if a team holds ALL the letters at the same time. At least make it double, more would be better.
This will shorten the one sided battles, this is good for both the guys that sit bored on the redline and the guys that get mowed down as soon as they even get close to it. We will most likely see less rage quitting and the poor stomped ones can more easily bite their teeths and stick with the battle until it ends. |
Deadeyes Anterie
Crimson Ravens Talons RISE of LEGION
269
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 11:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
Even easier would be to have premade squads fill into one game, solo queues fill into another game. The stomp is not from map imbalances. It's from 16 npc corpies running around with their head chopped off while imperfects and FPBHz skin them alive for sport.
Want to play alone, you play with other unorganized people. You want to get organized play with other organized people. It's a simple solution that is probably a bit more complicated to implement than I think, still LoL manages to do it well with 10x the playerbase.
I can predict with about 70-99% certainty (depending on the corps) who will win the match before it starts. That is not a map problem that is a matchmaking problem. |
ChromeBreaker
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
197
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 11:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
The answer is free tanks to the team that has been red lined. |
Mr Gloo Gloo
What The French
29
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 11:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Move to feedback section in 3, 2, 1 ... |
Midas Man ll
Talon Strike Force LTD Sleepless Knights Alliance
38
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 11:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
ChromeBreaker wrote:The answer is free tanks to the team that has been red lined.
Or actually give the red line some meaning and have 16 instalations along the edge of the red zone, that are re spawned if killed. So if a team is getting stomped it will be insanely difficult for the stompers to camp their red line.
Allow the underdogs a way out. It wont help them win but atleast they could run around and have some fun.
They are the military encampments you should not be able to role up and sit there taking pot shots at any merc inside. |
HUNGLIKEAHORSE1
Nova Tech Marines Hephaestus Forge Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 11:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
our damn blue dots get a mic and start working as a team. our at least have voice on so they can hear. i love it when noobs come run to me when they are red line it is like a free kill plus free sp. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 11:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
KingBabar wrote:Lag issues aside, there is something fundamentally wrong with this game mode.
- Its just not that tactical in Pub matches, especially on the bigger maps. Most games we just chase each other around in circles, hacking and moving on, its rare that someone actually defend the objectives. It lacks progression, as we had in the first build. This however I believe will be fixed in the form of more game modes to come.
So what is the major problem?
- I reckon that about 80% of the games I play end up as redline matches after just a couple of minutes. One team stomp the other, there's nothing new about that. The problem is to sit at the redline for 10 or so minutes fighting snipers, and just occationally fall back with 10 guys to stop the one single enemy that managed to sneak past and hack something. Way too many of the games I play are simply very boring.
Sollution?
- Make the damage the turrets do towards the MCC gain serious momentum if a team holds ALL the letters at the same time. At least make it double, more would be better.
This will shorten the one sided battles, this is good for both the guys that sit bored on the redline and the guys that get mowed down as soon as they even get close to it. We will most likely see less rage quitting and the poor stomped ones can more easily bite their teeths and stick with the battle until it ends.
meh i got a better way to fix skirmish https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=50015&find=unread |
KingBabar
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
443
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 12:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Its not a map issue, its a game mode issue.
Even if separated into single player games and group player games one team can certainly be stomped hard in any case.
My sollution makes sence, as you can call it a "multiple beam fire bonus" or whatever.
Giving free tanks is obvioulsy silly and lining the redline with blasters will promote even more camping, the games will be just as boring.
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Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 13:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
KingBabar wrote:Its not a map issue, its a game mode issue.
Even if separated into single player games and group player games one team can certainly be stomped hard in any case.
My sollution makes sence, as you can call it a "multiple beam fire bonus" or whatever.
Giving free tanks is obvioulsy silly and lining the redline with blasters will promote even more camping, the games will be just as boring.
did u read my post? i know its a game mode issue i said that in my post i suggested u make it more like BF2142 titan mode instead of skirmish 2.0 being a half assed version of it. when shields are depleted the team can then board the MCC and blow it up from the inside if they choose too and can end the game quickly
or on the flip side a team can be losing badly on their last few ticks on MCC armor and the enemy team could just now lose their shields......seeing this the losing team makes a last gasp attempt to board the MCC and claim a win from the jaws of defeat
it adds intensity, it gives installations a PURPOSE and controlling them a reason so ppl wont just blow them up for Free WPs since u might need to shoot down some dropships
Your suggestion of just increasing the dmg done when all null cannons are captured is still boring and doesnt add that spice and excitement to it |
Sobriety Denied
Universal Allies Inc.
433
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 13:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
KingBabar wrote:Lag issues aside, there is something fundamentally wrong with this game mode.
- Its just not that tactical in Pub matches, especially on the bigger maps. Most games we just chase each other around in circles, hacking and moving on, its rare that someone actually defend the objectives. It lacks progression, as we had in the first build. This however I believe will be fixed in the form of more game modes to come.
So what is the major problem?
- I reckon that about 80% of the games I play end up as redline matches after just a couple of minutes. One team stomp the other, there's nothing new about that. The problem is to sit at the redline for 10 or so minutes fighting snipers, and just occationally fall back with 10 guys to stop the one single enemy that managed to sneak past and hack something. Way too many of the games I play are simply very boring.
Sollution?
- Make the damage the turrets do towards the MCC gain serious momentum if a team holds ALL the letters at the same time. At least make it double, more would be better.
This will shorten the one sided battles, this is good for both the guys that sit bored on the redline and the guys that get mowed down as soon as they even get close to it. We will most likely see less rage quitting and the poor stomped ones can more easily bite their teeths and stick with the battle until it ends. there's simply not enough players hence the marathon result. the reason i also hate skirmish you just run around and sometimes very little fighting |
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Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 13:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
First i'll start with a classic : skirmish 1.0 >>>>>>> skirmish 2.0. The whole "run around and hack" part of it is just inherent to the domination game itself. BF3 conquest mode is just as boring on that matter. Skirmish 1.0 had a real front line and in case you were getting stomped it was pretty quickly over.
Now, i'm not a fan of the "got all points, extra damage" as some map design just make it easy for a team to get 2 points or more very early compared to the opponents.
Instead, just add a 5 minute or so timer when all objectives are owned. If no objective can be hacked back in that time frame, the losing team just retreats. And ISK bounty for the losers is cut big time. Which would make sense for the contracter to try and save its MCC in a fight where defeat is guaranteed.
Regarding MCC boarding, it is imo a massive pain in the ass to add. The idea is tempting but how would it work coz you dont develop that part ? Where would you enter the MCC, where would you hack it so it would blow up ? What about the red line issue, the fact that it would to have actual room in the MCC so redesigning it and making maps even heavier. What about control points when you can board the MCC ? Still available to hack ? Think of all the specifics and it's becoming a very heavy coding mess. Your suggestion would be more of an entirely new game mode similar to MAG's basic mode (hell cant remember the name oO). Start on a small map. Need to hack two points simultaneously and that allows boarding ennemy MCC with DS, and or spawning on boarded CRUs. etc... And tbh, even then i'd rather see my WarBarge fight game mode first
For skirmish 2.0, The best is to incentize players to just go fight (no WP in redline, no kill registered), and\or just put them out of their misery (auto-retreat timer or else). |
Umbat Boki
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
157
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 13:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
The reason for unbalanced games is that the matchmaking system doesn't work as indented. With increase in player since open beta has started, devs should clearly see this and hopefully plan to fix somehow.
In my opinion, it's isn't possible to calculate player's skill because player's performance can differ based on fitting used. I think we need several manually selected difficulty level for each game mode with benefits for playing in higher difficulty level and drawback to play lower difficulty levels with high cost fittings. |
steadyhand amarr
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
338
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 13:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
Remove red line have mcc fire down on troops that get to close problem solved as the loseing team will get cloned far faster :-) |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 13:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Umbat Boki wrote:The reason for unbalanced games is that the matchmaking system doesn't work as indented. With increase in player since open beta has started, devs should clearly see this and hopefully plan to fix somehow.
In my opinion, it's isn't possible to calculate player's skill because player's performance can differ based on fitting used. I think we need several manually selected difficulty level for each game mode with benefits for playing in higher difficulty level and drawback to play lower difficulty levels with high cost fittings.
Except that's against the single shard experience. Every possibility to choose a difficulty, or to separate the player base according to specific tier of weapons\armor chosen by the players themselves etc... is a bad idea.
A better solution would be to have a kind of standing thingy. Or a "merc reputation" stat. Something equivalent but not especially linked to one faction.
According to that merc reputation, you'd get access to different levels of NPC contratcs, just like in eve. The higher the contract, the higher the ISK multiplier. Thus, the higher the merc reputation, the higher the skill of the players are. Those "high reputation" merc could still play lower rewarding contracts but they should be drawn to the higher reward. Or play lower battles with lower grade equipment.
Sole problem with that is that low rep mercs could end up in very empty fights and struggle to gain access to the higher contratcs.
Maybe PVE could raise that merc rep as well.
Anyway, just thoughts. |
Umbat Boki
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
157
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 13:42:00 -
[15] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:Umbat Boki wrote:The reason for unbalanced games is that the matchmaking system doesn't work as indented. With increase in player since open beta has started, devs should clearly see this and hopefully plan to fix somehow.
In my opinion, it's isn't possible to calculate player's skill because player's performance can differ based on fitting used. I think we need several manually selected difficulty level for each game mode with benefits for playing in higher difficulty level and drawback to play lower difficulty levels with high cost fittings. Except that's against the single shard experience. Every possibility to choose a difficulty, or to separate the player base according to specific tier of weapons\armor chosen by the players themselves etc... is a bad idea. A better solution would be to have a kind of standing thingy. Or a "merc reputation" stat. Something equivalent but not especially linked to one faction. According to that merc reputation, you'd get access to different levels of NPC contratcs, just like in eve. The higher the contract, the higher the ISK multiplier. Thus, the higher the merc reputation, the higher the skill of the players are. Those "high reputation" merc could still play lower rewarding contracts but they should be drawn to the higher reward. Or play lower battles with lower grade equipment. Sole problem with that is that low rep mercs could end up in very empty fights and struggle to gain access to the higher contratcs. Maybe PVE could raise that merc rep as well. Anyway, just thoughts.
The concrete realization isn't really important at this moment. What I hope is that devs will understand that their plan to calculate player's skill and make matchmaking based on it, won't work. Players should be forced to play some higher level matches by reward and forced to not play with all-proto-gear in low level matches.
At the moment there is no risk-reward for random play. You can wear all-proto-gear and still have a chance to be matched against some new player in militia gear.
I don't suggest to make matchmaking based on fittings you have. What I want is some kind of option to select match where you know rewards (ISKs, salvage) is better and hence players have better fittings and you can test you skill there.
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Midas Man ll
Talon Strike Force LTD Sleepless Knights Alliance
38
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 14:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
Umbat Boki wrote: I don't suggest to make matchmaking based on fittings you have. What I want is some kind of option to select match where you know rewards (ISKs, salvage) is better and hence players have better fittings and you can test you skill there.
So what you want is:
Noob Battles for low isk (AKA Random battles) Mercenary contracts for medium isk (soonTM to be known as Faction Warefare battles) Corporation contracts for high-very high Isk (AKA Corporation battles)
Random battle will be used mainly by new mercs or those on the breadline or those that have no corp mainly low skilled/low geared players. Mercenary battles will be fought by people with better gear, they can afford to for the better payouts they are recieving. Corportaion battles is where the hardcore will go with their proto suits paid for by eve capsuleers.
I think if you wait a short while you may be pleasently surprised |
KingBabar
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
443
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 14:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote:KingBabar wrote:Its not a map issue, its a game mode issue.
Even if separated into single player games and group player games one team can certainly be stomped hard in any case.
My sollution makes sence, as you can call it a "multiple beam fire bonus" or whatever.
Giving free tanks is obvioulsy silly and lining the redline with blasters will promote even more camping, the games will be just as boring.
did u read my post? i know its a game mode issue i said that in my post i suggested u make it more like BF2142 titan mode instead of skirmish 2.0 being a half assed version of it. when shields are depleted the team can then board the MCC and blow it up from the inside if they choose too and can end the game quickly or on the flip side a team can be losing badly on their last few ticks on MCC armor and the enemy team could just now lose their shields......seeing this the losing team makes a last gasp attempt to board the MCC and claim a win from the jaws of defeat it adds intensity, it gives installations a PURPOSE and controlling them a reason so ppl wont just blow them up for Free WPs since u might need to shoot down some dropships Your suggestion of just increasing the dmg done when all null cannons are captured is still boring and doesnt add that spice and excitement to it
Yes I did read your post, its however not the one I responded to here, it was meant for the posts above you.
Regarding your post; yes that would be cool, but perhaps its best suitet for another game mode variant later on.
My "fix" is a mere tweak that can in comparison be imlpemented easy and could be tested while still in Beta. |
NORIC verIV
DUST University Ivy League
34
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 14:23:00 -
[18] - Quote
I dont know about all turrets. Its makes more sense to increase damage on a single turret if you hold it for say 5minutes. Give it a hundred percent boost in damage and it becomes a more critcal defensive position.
The other problem is that the game lacks alot defensive tools. Im talking static defenses. Pill boxes. Shields and other things to deny charge paths and slow the enemy down for reinforcements. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
Doing that (i.e. the OP) would break the game mode, driving the fun out of it by making a redline even easier. Now a team losing all objectives can still be salvaged by a well coordinated squad with proper use of uplinks (granted that's pretty rate at present but it's not actually that hard).
If you add this "snowball" damage effect you remove the ability for a team who's down to come back, artificially shorten game span (thus reducing all rewards gained) and increase the frequency and ease with which redlines occur. None of that is desirable.
If you desire a quick stomp, rinse, repeat, then play one of the two verities of ambush. Skirmish is not supposed to be a short term kill fest like ambush. Altering it so that it's shorter or more clone dependent (i.e. making it more like ambush) reduces game diversity, and thus player choice and fun.
0.02 ISK Cross
ps ~ it's a map level problem, retooling the sight lines, cover and redline distribution would go a long way to helping with this sort of thing. Other aspects that could improve the situation include objective placement, the "setting" (i.e. surrounding buildings and terrain) of the objectives, ease of defending multiple objectives (the harder it is the fewer redlines, put objectives farther apart and/or with more obstructions between and there will be fewer redlines). Or for that matter do what I and several others have suggested and alter the WP awards for actions taken into or out of the redline (in short remove them so that spawn camping the redline isn't a rewarded tactic and we'll start to get more blue dots who know not the make the match tedious by hacking every single enemy spawn point.) |
Banjo Hero
BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire
17
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 16:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote: [ . . . ] do what I and several others have suggested and alter the WP awards for actions taken into or out of the redline (in short remove them so that spawn camping the redline isn't a rewarded tactic and we'll start to get more blue dots who know not the make the match tedious by hacking every single enemy spawn point.)
+1 on C.A.'s whole post, not just this snip.
I don't know if I'd previously seen mention of the "Redline?-No-WP-for-you-NEXT!" idea being for _both_ sides. Or maybe I have seen it but just didn't read it closely or whatever (attention to detail FTW!) but either way, I think it's a good idea and worth implementing.
I'm not grief-inclined (I ain't got the gun game for it anyway, hah) but, unskilled lowly logi scrub that I am, even I have done a little bit of spawncampery at CRUs and stuff. I've been at the receiving end of it rather more, I'm sure, but that's okay.
It's part of the game, I think, and it (hopefully) encourages taking a look at the map and thinking about a different approach to the battle. And, of course, I howl and cuss and complain at my squaddies when the first time I spawn in a while with my bestest and shiniest and spendiest gear leads to me eating half a drum of HMG ammo before I can even look around, but I get over it. It's only money, and it's not even real money. Well, most of it isn't, anyway. *NB: I expect that my own pain at this experience is mitigated somewhat by the fact that my "bestest and spendiest" gear is still pretty crappy. ;-) We'll see how I feel about it when I get to the point where I'm using better than first- and second-tier gear.
But, I don't know that we really need the temporary invulnerability at spawn that some (I think including myself at least once) have called for. And, anyway, the topic immediately at hand isn't spawns in general, it's the red line.
I see no real reason the rear spawns shouldn't have some "protection." <- Scare quotes because I don't think they should necessarily be put behind a stack of respawning blaster turrets twelve high (although that might be fun) but I'm definitely cool with the idea of just not actively rewarding with WP or kill-count the folks who camp the red line from either side.
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